Changes in Onboard Behavior & Procedures after Cruises restart sailing again...

[clo]

42 minutes ago, Markanddonna said:

after

IF.

[ldubs]

2 minutes ago, clo said:

My point is that being on a ship involved days to weeks whereas a lot of other venues are a few hours. Masks, social distancing could be done, etc.

 

That was Cruisemom's point, and it was a very good one.   Have you attended NFL,  NBA, or major league games, high school football, rock concerts or any of the things I pointed to in my comments.  Sure masks can be worn but unless these types of events are not attended,  no one can seriously say social distancing is practical.  

[Roz]

22 minutes ago, clo said:

Not everybody can afford everything.

 

Let them eat cake. 🍰

[clo]

3 minutes ago, ldubs said:

Sure masks can be worn but unless these types of events are not attended,  no one can seriously say social distancing is practical.  

Okay.

[Roz]

23 minutes ago, clo said:

Not everybody can afford everything.

 

That may be true, but in the context we're speaking of here, I don't see how the mainstream lines such as Carnival, Princess, Nowegian, RCCL, HAL, etc. will be able to survive without middle class cruisers.

[clo]

2 minutes ago, Roz said:

 

Let them eat cake. 🍰

Not at all. Let me give a teeny-tiny example. I, a woman, wear a size 11 shoe. It's not the easiest to find and used to be almost impossible. So I've been shopping at Nordstrom for a long time. I know most of the brands I can afford (or are willing to pay)  and the departments that carry them. It's as simple as that. If someone who used to cruise but can no longer afford it, so what? THAT seems like a first world problem to me.

[clo]

3 minutes ago, Roz said:

 

That may be true, but in the context we're speaking of here, I don't see how the mainstream lines such as Carnival, Princess, Nowegian, RCCL, HAL, etc. will be able to survive without middle class cruisers.

Maybe some will and some won't.

[Roz]

1 minute ago, clo said:

Not at all. Let me give a teeny-tiny example. I, a woman, wear a size 11 shoe. It's not the easiest to find and used to be almost impossible. So I've been shopping at Nordstrom for a long time. I know most of the brands I can afford (or are willing to pay)  and the departments that carry them. It's as simple as that. If someone who used to cruise but can no longer afford it, so what? THAT seems like a first world problem to me.

 

I also wear a size 11...I feel your foot pain. 😩

[Flatbush Flyer]

10 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

    .......$5-$10k is a lot of money for the average person. 

"Average" person? Not necessarily. 

 

With everything from cars to homes (and even hometowns), I think that we can all agree, as regards socio-economic status, there is no  "average" person across-the-board when you're looking at an industry already geared to serving different "averages."

 

Without making any judgements (nor wanting to have a discussion) about the nature of circumstances responsible for haves/have nots, the reality is that premium/luxury lines have appeal/value for enough of the cruising public 

that the most savvy among them will be able to survive by NOT changing what they do best. 

 

The survival of a line like Oceania will depend on "not fixing what ain't broken" (as regards their product - ships, service, food and amenities).

 

Rather, O's future survival/profitability will depend on attracting/capturing the business of the "haves" frequenting other similar lines (e.g., Azamara), "wannabe" lines like Celebrity and Viking, and luxury line regulars now looking for a better value quotient. (Note that this is one of the strategies that was involved in the introduction of their planned new ships).  

 

As for the idea of also attracting younger cruisers, O has a head start in that it's focus on food knows no age boundary.  Sure, the entertainment might need a refresh. But, the decor has already been upgraded, the (non-"cookie-cutter Caribbean") itineraries are top-notch and the service is exemplary. 

 

 

 

 

[clo]

15 minutes ago, Roz said:

 

I also wear a size 11...I feel your foot pain. 😩

A kindred spirit.

[Cruzaholic41]

3 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

 

Rather, O's future survival/profitability will depend on attracting/capturing the business of the "haves" frequenting other similar lines (e.g., Azamara), "wannabe" lines like Celebrity and Viking, and luxury line regulars now looking for a better value quotient. 

 

Viking a “wannabe” line?  Compared to what?  Seriously?  When did you cruise Viking Ocean?  

[Flatbush Flyer]

2 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

Viking a “wannabe” line?  Compared to what?  Seriously?  When did you cruise Viking Ocean?  

Viking Ocean has yet to meet the test of time for its self-proclaimed "premium" status. 

In any case, for the purpose of this discussion, it is a line that is ripe for cherry-picking by Oceania.

Likewise, other mass-market lines, particularly those with "ship within a ship," should be in O's "crosshairs."

It's a good bet that the mass market lines will see some downsizing with ships being repurposed (e.g., low-income housing in coastal urban areas). Enough of their more financially secure regulars will be looking for a new cruiseline. And, that premium industry segment should be actively increasing pursuit of their business.

[Cruzaholic41]

Oceania must really be hurting if they’re resorting to threads like this to do their advertising. 

[Flatbush Flyer]

10 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

Oceania must really be hurting if they’re resorting to threads like this to do their advertising. 

"Sticks and stones...."

Oceania is just an example of the very specific niche industry segment that is well-positioned to come out of this Covid-19 business bruised but not beaten. Likewise, Azamara should be (and probably is) doing the same thing. Both lines have a very loyal, time-tested following.

Where Oceania might have a slight emotional edge is that NCLH's FDR will always be hard pressed to forget his "baby."

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Roz said:

 

That may be true, but in the context we're speaking of here, I don't see how the mainstream lines such as Carnival, Princess, Nowegian, RCCL, HAL, etc. will be able to survive without middle class cruisers.

That is precisely the point been made in a number of posts here:  it is unlikely that many of them will survive.  They built themselves into a box by fucussing on numbers of passengers:  building ever larger ships -  which they are unlikely to be able to operate profitably with any substantial decrease in numbers booking.  Coping with almost certain costly innovations to control contagion, they are going to have to raise fares somewhat which will select out some passengers;  then, with decreasing numbers booking, they will have to raise fares further  to operate profitably - and the necessity of  raising fares in a (now very likely) recessionary environment will be the sign of the end for the present generation of cruise companies. 

[ed01106]

3 hours ago, Markanddonna said:

I don't recall saying this would solve the COVID19 problems.  They are just simple suggestions that would improve sanitary conditions onboard the ship for any type of contagious outbreak. There are all sorts of modifications and changes the cruise lines and travel industry can make to assist in making an improved environment after a vaccine is widely available.

 

Your suggestion to create more waste with single use packets as a long term solution will do way more to harm to human health through increased pollution than the minuscule  impact on virus spread.

[Flatbush Flyer]

FWIW: CDC extends "no cruise" order.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/cdc-orders-cruise-ships-to-suspend-operations-for-100-more-days?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=cnt&utm_mailing=CNT_Daily_PM_041320&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5cb4e2632ddf9c2f6a165e3b&cndid=29512118&hasha=26f5fdd1b1f766a4e841f7aea3886510&hashb=83ae8ab1e4f519d6e5f8262a41dc27013809a2d2&hashc=4d56ff7525aecf5349fb7a28e25f6a2e6f16c807fa498722707debbeb1d6f401&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_content=Final&utm_term=CNT_Daily

[clo]

15 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

FWIW: CDC extends "no cruise" order.

 

Isn't this the one we already knew about from last week?

[sanger727]

7 hours ago, clo said:

Not at all. Let me give a teeny-tiny example. I, a woman, wear a size 11 shoe. It's not the easiest to find and used to be almost impossible. So I've been shopping at Nordstrom for a long time. I know most of the brands I can afford (or are willing to pay)  and the departments that carry them. It's as simple as that. If someone who used to cruise but can no longer afford it, so what? THAT seems like a first world problem to me.

yes, but that isn’t how supply and demand pricing works. If the cost gets so high that many ‘someone’s’ who used to be able to cruise no longer can afford it they may not be able to sell enough cabins to be profitable.  this is potentially going to be a huge issue for the mainstream cruiseline if they have to cut occupancy.
 

Many of the mainstream cruise lines don’t break even based on cabin sales. They need the on board revenue to make a profit. Say they say sell 50% of their cabins for social distancing purposes. Now to be even when the ship sales they need to sell the cabins for double the price. But now they have half the people for onboard revenue and paying gratuities. So in reality they need to sell the cabins for closer to triple the cost. 
 

if I could have cruises on a NCL ship for $1,500 for a cabin; now it’s going to be $4,000 for that same cabin for them to be anywhere close to profitable. That will price most mainstream cruisers out. And the ones that can afford that will be looking to the luxury lines.

[Aquahound]

Copied from member ew101 on the HAL board.  I knew this was coming, but this was the first I saw it posted:

 

Whatever has happened in the recent past is behind us, but the US CDC is pretty cranky.  The latest memo is strongly worded and the steps needed are well defined.  https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships_Extension_4-9-20-encrypted.pdf

 

There is a new article in the Guardian which has good and simple insights on the illness.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/five-months-on-what-scientists-now-know-about-the-coronavirus

 

The key message is this:  "Virus-ridden particles are inhaled by others and come into contact with cells lining the throat and larynx. These cells have large numbers of receptors – known as Ace-2 receptors – on their surfaces."  This is pretty unrelated to Noro - tummy vs lungs- which we have pretty well figured out.  

 

So the primary laws of modern cruise industry economics and operations (larger, tightly packed ships) have to be tossed out, modified or put on the shelf.  The only 100% proven mitigation strategy at the moment is social distancing.  

 

And the quaint idea of calling the US Coast Guard "Uh somehow 21 people aboard are suddenly infected and contagious - can you risk your lives and contaminate your equipment and rescue them?" is gone.  

 

So new and bold measures need to be taken if there is to be cruising:

 

Online check in - no packed departure terminals - those video kiosks/carts work fine for US Customs

Voice or phone or ? operated elevators 

Extra Washy Washy

Social distancing in the buffet- good luck :)

Every other small table at dinner

Expanded medical areas - like part of a lower deck + ventilators 

More medical staff 

Interestingly the CDC has adopted the brave and clever idea of using another ship to rescue a stricken ship from HAL.   The much maligned older ships can be used for this.  

Test kits and temperature checkers and PPE  (which comes from where I wonder) 

Crew spread out i.e. no room mates - this will reduce guest capacity - which is needed anyhow 

No packed crew galley

Masks - yep

Spacing of loungers

Pre arranged infected ship docking - when there an outbreak.  If no port will take an infected ship- you don't go.   This is not an IF question but a WHEN question.  

Pre arranged upgraded shoreside hospital facilities - can this be done at various ports- yes probably.  The lines have cash now but won't by November .  The idea is to incent ($$) places like the Bahamas to upgrade a hospital floor to handle COVID-19 cases.  

Rent some vacant resorts for quarantine 

Pre arranged private buses /rigs/ planes ashore 

Positive ventilation in common areas- we already have it in cabins per ChengKP - guest cabins do not share air with other cabins 

Etc.

 

[lenquixote66]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:30 PM, Luckiestmanonearth said:

Just curious what everyone’s thoughts are on what will be the new “norm” in cruising

 

1) Dining rooms - less tables?

2) Main pool - limited deck chairs?

3) # of passenger on the ship (50% less)?

4) buffet lines - people serving vs self serve?

5) hand washing and Purell stations everywhere

 

Whats your prediction ?

 

My predictions:

 

No changes in dining room as far as tables

No changes in pool chairs

No changes in number of passengerd

No changes in buffet

No additional hand washing areas

 

The costs for cruises will be much higher

There will be more high priced specialty restaurants

The cost for shore excursions will be much higher

 

I hope I am wrong but I do not think so

[Flatbush Flyer]

50 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

....if I could have cruises on a NCL ship for $1,500 for a cabin; now it’s going to be $4,000 for that same cabin for them to be anywhere close to profitable. That will price most mainstream cruisers out. And the ones that can afford that will be looking to the luxury lines.

....Which is along the lines of what i and others here have been saying, though those NCL folks will be looking first to the premium offerings, which (once you figure in their inclusions like some mix of intercontinental air tix, beverages and booze, specialties and/or tours) can be not much more expensive than the mass market cruise with some or all of those items being optional purchases.

[rkacruiser]

48 minutes ago, lenquixote66 said:

My predictions:

 

No changes in dining room as far as tables

No changes in pool chairs

No changes in number of passengerd

No changes in buffet

No additional hand washing areas

 

The costs for cruises will be much higher

There will be more high priced specialty restaurants

The cost for shore excursions will be much higher

 

I hope I am wrong but I do not think so

 

I agree, mostly.  How could a ship be operated without the sufficient number of guests to pay for the cruise's expected costs for the Company?  

 

The cost for cruises will have to increase.  Specialty restaurants may be a thing of the past as an extra cost venue, but as an alternative to the MDR regardless of what a guest is paying.

 

Buffets?  Now known mostly as "Lido Restaurants of whatever names":  think of the ocean liners of the past, i.e. Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth, Ile de France, etc.  did they have the current concept of buffet restaurants?  Maybe we will see a return to such dining concepts as previous generations saw in previous years of cruising.  Sometimes:  what is "old" becomes "new" again.

[lenquixote66]

1 minute ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I agree, mostly.  How could a ship be operated without the sufficient number of guests to pay for the cruise's expected costs for the Company?  

 

The cost for cruises will have to increase.  Specialty restaurants may be a thing of the past as an extra cost venue, but as an alternative to the MDR regardless of what a guest is paying.

 

Buffets?  Now known mostly as "Lido Restaurants of whatever names":  think of the ocean liners of the past, i.e. Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth, Ile de France, etc.  did they have the current concept of buffet restaurants?  Maybe we will see a return to such dining concepts as previous generations saw in previous years of cruising.  Sometimes:  what is "old" becomes "new" again.

My first cruise was in 1973 on the Cunard Ambassador.There was only one dining room,no buffets, It was either eat in the dining room or do not eat.

There were no shore excursions.Everyone seemed to find something to do it port.

 

Lenny

[clo]

1 hour ago, Aquahound said:

Spacing of loungers

 

We were on a small, old Hurigruten ship a year ago. It didn't have stabilizers. Here's how they secured furniture.