Changes in Onboard Behavior & Procedures after Cruises restart sailing again...

[2wheelin]

19 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Proof of Yellow Fever vaccination is primarily for the benefit of the individual - so a waiver would primarily only jeopardize that individual;  while failure to comply with COVID 19 precautions puts many others at risk.

Then substitute measles vaccination which is required to attend school but waived for some—herd immunity. Or when my medical employer requires employee influenza immunization but waived for some. Herd immunity is the reason for all the exemptions but since there is no vaccine and when one is developed it will still need to be verified that immunity is evident and long term, it will be quite some time in the future before it is even a question.

 

[d9704011]

1 hour ago, 2wheelin said:

Then substitute measles vaccination which is required to attend school but waived for some—herd immunity. Or when my medical employer requires employee influenza immunization but waived for some. Herd immunity is the reason for all the exemptions but since there is no vaccine and when one is developed it will still need to be verified that immunity is evident and long term, it will be quite some time in the future before it is even a question.

 

I’m not certain I understand your post.  Are you saying that herd immunity to certain diseases permits some exemptions from vaccinations for those diseases but since there is (not yet, anyway) no herd immunity to this coronavirus, a vaccination exemption will not be acceptable?

[2wheelin]

3 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

I’m not certain I understand your post.  Are you saying that herd immunity to certain diseases permits some exemptions from vaccinations for those diseases but since there is (not yet, anyway) no herd immunity to this coronavirus, a vaccination exemption will not be acceptable?

I’m saying that since there is no vaccine on the horizon, it will be a long time before one can be required. When developed, it well need to be proven effective for a defined (at least minimum) amount of time before it can be either required or exempted. If proven effective, then exemptions would also be reasonable.

[d9704011]

6 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

I’m saying that since there is no vaccine on the horizon, it will be a long time before one can be required. When developed, it well need to be proven effective for a defined (at least minimum) amount of time before it can be either required or exempted. If proven effective, then exemptions would also be reasonable.

OK, thanks for clarifying.

[SRF]

On 4/15/2020 at 10:01 AM, Markanddonna said:

Could it be that our passports will eventually contain data that states we are immune through prior exposure or have had the vaccine?  

 

I doubt that passports will.

 

But something like the ICOV (International Certificate of Vaccination).

 

However, once there is a vaccine and most people are immune, there will be no need to check.

[SRF]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:46 AM, navybankerteacher said:

News Flash:  it is not all about you.  

 

If the cruise line has a clearly stated and justifiable policy of requiring ALL passengers to show evidence of vaccination, they have the right to refuse boarding to anyone who is not vaccinated -regardless of whether such non-vaccination is due to allergy or simple disinclination.(Which was the point of my post to which you take exception.)

 

Yes, they CAN do this.  But WHY?

 

If you want to be protected, then you get vaccinated.  I am sure the cruise line will vaccinate the entire crew.

 

And if you get on the ship, and catch the virus, you will most likely not be sick on board.

[SRF]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:46 AM, navybankerteacher said:

News Flash:  it is not all about you.  

 

If the cruise line has a clearly stated and justifiable policy of requiring ALL passengers to show evidence of vaccination, they have the right to refuse boarding to anyone who is not vaccinated -regardless of whether such non-vaccination is due to allergy or simple disinclination.(Which was the point of my post to which you take exception.)

 

Yes, they CAN do this.  But WHY?

 

If you want to be protected, then you get vaccinated.  I am sure the cruise line will vaccinate the entire crew.

 

And if you get on the ship, and catch the virus, you will most likely not be sick on board.

[SRF]

On 4/15/2020 at 10:19 AM, ed01106 said:

 

HIPPA may need to be altered in a Covid-19 world.  

 

While privacy is good, I think most of us would agree that a law allowing (and mandating) that entry into a venue of 100 people or more requires Covid-19 testing either a certification of antibodies or no virus in the past week is an overriding public interest.  

 

It would be a minor tweak in comparison to the changes that occurred post 9/11.  

 

Again, if the vaccine is readily available, then if YOU want to be protected, you get vaccinated.  

 

Or should we make all vaccines for common things (Hep A, Hep B, Tetanus, Measles, Mumps, Pertussis, etc) MANDATORY?   Even the flu vaccine?  The flu has killed between 450,000 and 1.2 million people THIS FLU SEASON.

 

 

[SRF]

On 4/15/2020 at 10:04 AM, oldishseadog said:

There does not appear to be evidence that prior infection gives future immunity.

 

Where is that study?

 

The antibody testing for previous exposure has just been started.

 

And you better hope that this is NOT true.  As, if this is not true, there cannot be a vaccine.

Edited April 18, 2020 by SRF

[SRF]

On 4/15/2020 at 12:59 PM, NavyCruiser said:

 

My passport has addendum DOD data to show all my vaccines since boot camp:

 

Adenovirus

Hepatitis A

Hepatitis B

Twinrix

Haemophilus Influenzae type B (Hib)

Influenza

Measles-Mumps-Rubella

Meningococcal serogroups A, B, C, W, Y

Pneumococcal

Polio

TD, Tdap

Varicella

Yellow Fever

Zoster

Tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid and acellular pertussis (TDAP)

Smallpox

Anthrax

cholera

meningitis

rabies

tetanus

typhoid

HIV and Malaria

Human papillomavirus

 

Now just awaiting CoronaVirus....?

 

Where is that in your passport?

 

The international standard place for that is in the ICOV.

 

Also, WHAT HIV vaccine?  And WHAT malaria vaccine?  You must be young to have HPV vaccine.  That one is recent and only suggested for under 26. Although recently approved for up to 45.  But most people have been exposed by then and have antibodies to it.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by SRF

[SRF]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:11 AM, navybankerteacher said:

The point being discussed is simply whether a cruise line has the right to deny boarding to people who fail to comply with the published requirements for boarding.  It has nothing to do with the long term efficacy of vaccines - or if people might have naturally acquired immunity.  

 

You are needlessly complicating the question.

 

No, you are saying that, and I have agreed that they COULD.

 

What you have not addressed is WHY would they.  And what good it would do.

 

The cruise line could only allow left handed people to cruise also.

[navybankerteacher]

14 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

No, you are saying that, and I have agreed that they COULD.

 

What you have not addressed is WHY would they.  And what good it would do.

 

The cruise line could only allow left handed people to cruise also.

If it were clear that right handed people posed an avoidable threat to other human beings then perhaps cruise lines (along with schools and other institutions) should adopt that policy.  

One reason WHY they would is to comply with reasonable requirements of ports of call that would prevent cruise lines from introducing disease carriers to their communities.

Such prevention would be seen as good - except perhaps  by people who like to argue pointlessly and endlessly against efforts to contain, and possibly (as in the case of smallpox) eradicate contagious diseases.

[ilikeanswers]

32 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

Yes, they CAN do this.  But WHY?

 

If you want to be protected, then you get vaccinated.  I am sure the cruise line will vaccinate the entire crew.

 

And if you get on the ship, and catch the virus, you will most likely not be sick on board.

 

We have already seen countries turn ships away for suspected COVID 19. If everyone on the ship is vaccinated then they will have proof to say that whatever sickness is on the ship cannot be COVID 19 so therefore they will be less likely to be barred from docking. I could see cruiselines using this as a sort of insurance policy to lessen the chance of being turned away and being forced to wander the seas till someone lets them dock.

[oldishseadog]

35 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

Where is that study?

 

The antibody testing for previous exposure has just been started.

 

And you better hope that this is NOT true.  As, if this is not true, there cannot be a vaccine.

 

36 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

Where is that study?

 

The antibody testing for previous exposure has just been started.

 

And you better hope that this is NOT true.  As, if this is not true, there cannot be a vaccine.

This is the  source of my scepticism.......

 

“For those patients who have been cured, there is a likelihood of a relapse,” Zhan Qingyuan, the director of pneumonia prevention and treatment at the China-Japan Friendship Hospital, said during a Friday press conference.

“The antibody will be generated,” he added. “However, in certain individuals, the antibody cannot last that long.”

Because some patients could get sick multiple times, it will prove even more difficult to track and contain the viral outbreak — which has already spread to and killed more people than did the entire SARS outbreak of the early 2000s.

 

...we can only hope that a vaccine will be developed to create anti-bodies to attack and eliminate the virus.

[mom says]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

We have already seen countries turn ships away for suspected COVID 19. If everyone on the ship is vaccinated then they will have proof to say that whatever sickness is on the ship cannot be COVID 19 so therefore they will be less likely to be barred from docking. I could see cruiselines using this as a sort of insurance policy to lessen the chance of being turned away and being forced to wander the seas till someone lets them dock.

Your argument is only valid if a vaccine is developed that is 100% effective. And that is simply not possible, since every body's immune system reacts differently. It would reduce the chance of COVID  19, but not eliminate it.

Edited April 18, 2020 by mom says

[CruisingAlong4Now]

Just because a vaccine is available does not mean that everyone will willingly get one.  Many people refuse to have their children vaccinated against diseases that had been eradicated in the US.  Measles, polio, etc. Through the first three quarters of  2019 there were 1250 case of measles across 31 states.  And while at the state level, Connecticut had attained an overall MMR immunization rate of 95%, there were 134 schools where the kindergarten vaccination rate was below the 95% rate needed for herd immunity. If someone does not get vaccinated, they are putting not only themselves at risk, but also their neighborhood.  So, it's not just a question of some accepting the risk of getting the disease, but also the risk that they are spreading the disease.

https://measlesrubellainitiative.org/anti-vaccination-movement/

Edited April 18, 2020 by CruisingAlong4Now

[ldubs]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:59 AM, NavyCruiser said:

 

My passport has addendum DOD data to show all my vaccines since boot camp:

 

Adenovirus

Hepatitis A

Hepatitis B

Twinrix

Haemophilus Influenzae type B (Hib)

Influenza

Measles-Mumps-Rubella

Meningococcal serogroups A, B, C, W, Y

Pneumococcal

Polio

TD, Tdap

Varicella

Yellow Fever

Zoster

Tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid and acellular pertussis (TDAP)

Smallpox

Anthrax

cholera

meningitis

rabies

tetanus

typhoid

HIV and Malaria

Human papillomavirus

 

Now just awaiting CoronaVirus....?

 

Holy cow!  You have an impressive vaccine record.  Kind of like a medical force field!  👍 

 

 

[chipmaster]

39 minutes ago, CruisingAlong4Now said:

Just because a vaccine is available does not mean that everyone will willingly get one.  Many people refuse to have their children vaccinated against diseases that had been eradicated in the US.  Measles, polio, etc. Through the first three quarters of  2019 there were 1250 case of measles across 31 states.  And while at the state level, Connecticut had attained an overall MMR immunization rate of 95%, there were 134 schools where the kindergarten vaccination rate was below the 95% rate needed for herd immunity. If someone does not get vaccinated, they are putting not only themselves at risk, but also their neighborhood.  So, it's not just a question of some accepting the risk of getting the disease, but also the risk that they are spreading the disease.

https://measlesrubellainitiative.org/anti-vaccination-movement/

 

Academic discussion, no vaccine is even in play yet for SARS-CoV-2, once we get some real candidates it will take significant clinical trials over many many people and conditions across all the mutated forms of the virus to evaluate effectiveness.  

 

And you point out the issue with personal choice.   

 

But when you cruise or travel or choose to enter another country you give up some of that free will for something.  

 

If by 2022 they have some vaccine, I could see that as noted countries, activities are barred till person can prove their vaccination history.  People ( stupid and otherwise ) free to opt out, but don't whine about why you can't participate in some activity or group.   

[SRF]

On 4/18/2020 at 9:30 AM, oldishseadog said:

 

This is the  source of my scepticism.......

 

“For those patients who have been cured, there is a likelihood of a relapse,” Zhan Qingyuan, the director of pneumonia prevention and treatment at the China-Japan Friendship Hospital, said during a Friday press conference.

“The antibody will be generated,” he added. “However, in certain individuals, the antibody cannot last that long.”

Because some patients could get sick multiple times, it will prove even more difficult to track and contain the viral outbreak — which has already spread to and killed more people than did the entire SARS outbreak of the early 2000s.

 

...we can only hope that a vaccine will be developed to create anti-bodies to attack and eliminate the virus.

 

You are missing the point.

 

If having the disease does not mean you are immune, then a vaccine will not make you immune.

 

A vaccine causes the immune system to create anti bodies.  Having the disease and getting well is due to your immune system to create anti bodies that fights off the disease.

 

If the immunity does not last from the disease, it will not last from a vaccine.

[SRF]

On 4/18/2020 at 1:06 PM, chipmaster said:

 

Academic discussion, no vaccine is even in play yet for SARS-CoV-2, once we get some real candidates it will take significant clinical trials over many many people and conditions across all the mutated forms of the virus to evaluate effectiveness.  

 

 

And you point out the issue with personal choice.   

 

But when you cruise or travel or choose to enter another country you give up some of that free will for something.  

 

If by 2022 they have some vaccine, I could see that as noted countries, activities are barred till person can prove their vaccination history.  People ( stupid and otherwise ) free to opt out, but don't whine about why you can't participate in some activity or group.   

 

Actually they are close with a vaccine.  But, as you state, clinical trials will take a while.  The FDA MIGHT allow production of the vaccine prior to completion of clinical trails (but not release it) to reduce the time it takes until it is available.

 

The point is, if the vaccine is readily available, and everyone who wants it can get it, then there is no reason to require it.  Just like either measles vaccination or proof of having had measles is not required. Or many other diseases that have vaccines available.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

The point is, if the vaccine is readily available, and everyone who wants it can get it, then there is no reason to require it.  Just like either measles vaccination or proof of having had measles is not required. Or many other diseases that have vaccines available.

 

We can all talk theory until the cows come home but unless you are leader of a country I don't think it is up to you😂. The whole argument is moot because at the end of the day we have no say in what bio secrurity requirements they will choose to implement in the future, just like we have no say over the security protocols at airports. It does not matter if it is effective, it does not matter about your rights, you just have to put up with it if you want the privilege to travel. As such is life😉.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

 

...

 

If having the disease does not mean you are immune, then a vaccine will not make you immune.

...

Interesting statement of “fact”.

 

I was not aware that a vaccine cannot grant immunity if previous infection failed to do so.   Lots of people seem to avoid the flu by getting vaccine - where simply having experienced flu in the past would not have do protected them.

 

Where did you study epidemiology

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

 

...

 

The point is, if the vaccine is readily available, and everyone who wants it can get it, then there is no reason to require it.  Just like either measles vaccination or proof of having had measles is not required. Or many other diseases that have vaccines available.

This is precisely the attitude which has led to recent measles outbreaks.  Effective public health measures requires public participation - which cannot alway be voluntary.

[clo]

54 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

unless you are leader of a country

And I agree that countries should determine this not cruise lines.

[HxFx]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Interesting statement of “fact”.

 

I was not aware that a vaccine cannot grant immunity if previous infection failed to do so.   Lots of people seem to avoid the flu by getting vaccine - where simply having experienced flu in the past would not have do protected them.

 

Where did you study epidemiology

I don’t know if what SRF said is true, but it is an interesting theory and on paper, makes some sense. I would love to read any medical articles SRF may have on that. With the flu, it is my understanding that if you get the flu then you have built up somewhat of an immunity for that strain. The problem is there are so many strains (and new ones every year).