A New Cruise Line Passenger Bill of Rights

[zzzz8888]

I am looking forward to the day when I can get back on a cruise.  However, I need to know cruise lines have made significant steps in improving their handling of medical issues among other things.  I haven't heard much from the cruise lines in how they will deal with COVID-19-like events in the future.  What follows are my suggestions for cruise line passengers before they step foot on-board another cruise.  I understand cruise lines may not be able implement all of my suggestions.  I also understand adopting these suggestions will increase the cost of cruises and/or may decrease the level of service.  However, they need to take concrete steps towards prescribed solutions rather than ad hoc, chaotic responses.  Cruise passengers need detailed action plans rather than cosmetic changes.  This is what I could come up with right now.  I'll add more if I come up with more ideas.  What's your Bill of Rights?

 

Medical

• Cruise lines must have pre-existing agreements (published and reviewable by cruise passengers) in place with countries (where the ship is visiting) for handling and offloading sick passengers
• Cruise lines must have strict protocols (published and reviewable by all passengers) in place for another COVID-19 or another similar medical outbreak
• Protocols must be known by all crew members.  Training must be performed to adhere to protocols.
• Cruise ship doctors and nurses my be educated and licensed from first-world, developed nations.  They must have graduated from reputable universities (for doctors), reputable institutions for nurses.  Doctors and nurses must have practiced their craft in reputable hospitals and/or settings.
• Cruise ship doctors and nurses must be directly employed by the cruise line, i.e. not contracted out

• Each cruise ship must have a minimum doctor and nurse/(crew + passenger) ratio
• Medical facilities must be expanded, with the number of beds/facilities proportional with the number of crew and passengers on the cruise
• Cruise ships must include medical care/evacuation within the cruise price  or at the very least, provide medical care/evacuation at reasonable and customary rates
• Surgical masks (and if necessary, N95 masks) must be made available to all crew and passengers.  Cruise ships must travel with a minimal number of masks per passenger/crew/ per day for the duration of the cruise.
• All passengers must be tested for COVID-19 using rapid COVID-19 test kits (when it eventually becomes available) before embarkation and disembarkation
• The cruise ship must have an adequate supply of rapid COVID-19 tests on the ship

 

Cruise Ship Design

• Certainly not an expert in this, but consider installing HEPA filters and/or UV light cleaners in ventilation system. 
• Again, certainly not an expert in this - for new ships, all staterooms should have negative pressure ventilation

 

Crew

• Crew members, especially those with significant customer contact, can work at most 60 hours per week with at least one day off per week
• All crew members need to be trained and retrained in personal hygiene techniques
• All crew members get paid sick leave while on board/during contract
• Max number of crew members per crew cabin (2-3?)

 

Food Service

• Buffets must not be self serve.  Buffets can still be all you can eat, but all items must transferred to the passenger's plate by the food service crew.
• Self serve drink stations should be eliminated - food service crew can deliver drinks to the cruise passenger.

 

Customer Service

• Better cancellation policies, with the ability for passengers to cancel (for any reason) within 72 hours with a minimal fee.
• If a pandemic has been declared, no fee will be assessed upon passenger cancellation of cruise.
• Refunds must be processed and deposited in the passenger's credit card account with 72 hours.

 

Cruise Line Financial Operations

• Cruise line companies must be incorporated in a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise ships for the cruise line companies must must be registered to a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise line companies must have a minimum amount of cash on their balance sheet, in proportion to the number of passengers/days/revenues

[chengkp75]

Well, I guess your cruising days are over, because realistically, 90% of what you propose won't happen.  You do know that the current ""Cruise Passenger Bill of Rights" is a voluntary document by CLIA members, not an actual law?

 

I won't get into a lot of what you propose, but would ask whether or not you expect similar conditions from airlines, trains, buses, concerts, sporting events, and the like?

5 hours ago, zzzz8888 said:

Cruise Ship Design

• Certainly not an expert in this, but consider installing HEPA filters and/or UV light cleaners in ventilation system. 
• Again, certainly not an expert in this - for new ships, all staterooms should have negative pressure ventilation

While HEPA filters and UV sterilizers could be of benefit, you want negative pressure in cabins so that in the event of a fire that smoke can migrate from the passageway into cabins that are not on fire?  Current shipboard HVAC design is that cabins to not share any air, and the cabins are kept at positive pressure to prevent smoke migration.

 

5 hours ago, zzzz8888 said:

Crew

• Crew members, especially those with significant customer contact, can work at most 60 hours per week with at least one day off per week
• All crew members need to be trained and retrained in personal hygiene techniques
• All crew members get paid sick leave while on board/during contract
• Max number of crew members per crew cabin (2-3?)

Okay, cutting crew work hours does what for your health and safety?  And where do the additional crew live that are required to cover the lesser hours each works, and the days off?  Crew are already paid when sick onboard the ship.  Similar to where do additional crew live, if you reduce the number of crew per cabin, where do the additional cabins come from?  Now, while most of the newer ships do have 1-2 person cabins exclusively, you would be condemning about 60+% of the existing fleet to the scrap heap.

 

5 hours ago, zzzz8888 said:

Cruise Line Financial Operations

• Cruise line companies must be incorporated in a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise ships for the cruise line companies must must be registered to a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise line companies must have a minimum amount of cash on their balance sheet, in proportion to the number of passengers/days/revenues

None of these will happen.  The vast majority of maritime nations, and all nations that cruise lines are incorporated in now, are signatory to all IMO international conventions, which require that those conventions be entered into law in the signatory country, so Panama, France, Norway, or Germany all adhere to the same minimum standards.  Okay, let's register cruise ships in "developed, first world countries" like Great Britain, France, Norway, Germany, or Italy, all of which are generally considered to be "developed, first world countries", and all of which operate a "second" or "open" registry for vessels along with their "national" registries.  These ships in the "open" or "international" registries fly the flag of the country (so you would never know which registry they are under, national or open), yet gain the most of the benefits that "flag of convenience" nations give to their shipowners.  Do you propose that Disney World, Six Flags, and other vacation industries maintain regulated cash balances?

[c-boy]

" Cruise line companies must have a minimum amount of cash on their balance sheet, in proportion to the number of passengers/days/revenues "  

 

🙄

[CruiserBruce]

I suspect many, if not all of these items will never happen, for the simple reason they will make cruising too expensive, including the cost of retrofitting the ships for these things.

 

Will there be "lessons learned", increased planning and training, and some other changes? No doubt. But not such grandiose changes as proposed here. Sorry, not realistic.

[Nic6318]

Hi

 

I think cruise lines (as well as other companies) will do what is necessary, when it is necessary. I would say at this time they have more immediate issues, one important focus is remaining solvent. 

 

Don't forget, to your concerns, governments have a large say in what is required. To that point I would think that all surviving companies will comply with all requirements. Beyond that I don't think most vacationers care about what specific precautions any given company takes. As long as the situation appears normalized, people just want to pay their money and go have their fun. Just look at how many people in the past have even taken the trouble to read their current cruise contract. Nobody is interested in having to read a document before going on a vacation.

[evandbob]

I'm thinking that the OP believes we will have annual or seasonal COVID 19 events from now on since COVID 10 is specifically mentioned in most of his clauses?  

 

I'm inclined to think that while there might be a resurgence of COVID 19 sometime in the future, it's more likely the next viral threat or pandemic will be of a different nature than COVID 19 (or SARS, or EBOLA, or whatever).  It may require different  prevention and containment practices, vaccines and therapies to halt and treat the new danger

 

Preparation for any pandemic infection can be helpful for whatever version the next infection takes

 

 

[Pyrate13]

Just my opinion but I think the op is living in a dream world. If most of his ideas were implemented most of the cruising industry would simply dry up and disappear. The costs would be so prohibitive that no one but the wealthy would be able to afford a cruise. Perhaps they want to bring back the days of only wealthy cruisers, but then the number of ships will be very limited too.

[donaldsc]

16 hours ago, zzzz8888 said:

I am looking forward to the day when I can get back on a cruise.  However, I need to know cruise lines have made significant steps in improving their handling of medical issues among other things.  I haven't heard much from the cruise lines in how they will deal with COVID-19-like events in the future.  What follows are my suggestions for cruise line passengers before they step foot on-board another cruise.  I understand cruise lines may not be able implement all of my suggestions.  I also understand adopting these suggestions will increase the cost of cruises and/or may decrease the level of service.  However, they need to take concrete steps towards prescribed solutions rather than ad hoc, chaotic responses.  Cruise passengers need detailed action plans rather than cosmetic changes.  This is what I could come up with right now.  I'll add more if I come up with more ideas.  What's your Bill of Rights?

 

Medical

• Cruise lines must have pre-existing agreements (published and reviewable by cruise passengers) in place with countries (where the ship is visiting) for handling and offloading sick passengers
• Cruise lines must have strict protocols (published and reviewable by all passengers) in place for another COVID-19 or another similar medical outbreak
• Protocols must be known by all crew members.  Training must be performed to adhere to protocols.
• Cruise ship doctors and nurses my be educated and licensed from first-world, developed nations.  They must have graduated from reputable universities (for doctors), reputable institutions for nurses.  Doctors and nurses must have practiced their craft in reputable hospitals and/or settings.
• Cruise ship doctors and nurses must be directly employed by the cruise line, i.e. not contracted out

• Each cruise ship must have a minimum doctor and nurse/(crew + passenger) ratio
• Medical facilities must be expanded, with the number of beds/facilities proportional with the number of crew and passengers on the cruise
• Cruise ships must include medical care/evacuation within the cruise price  or at the very least, provide medical care/evacuation at reasonable and customary rates
• Surgical masks (and if necessary, N95 masks) must be made available to all crew and passengers.  Cruise ships must travel with a minimal number of masks per passenger/crew/ per day for the duration of the cruise.
• All passengers must be tested for COVID-19 using rapid COVID-19 test kits (when it eventually becomes available) before embarkation and disembarkation
• The cruise ship must have an adequate supply of rapid COVID-19 tests on the ship

 

Cruise Ship Design

• Certainly not an expert in this, but consider installing HEPA filters and/or UV light cleaners in ventilation system. 
• Again, certainly not an expert in this - for new ships, all staterooms should have negative pressure ventilation

 

Crew

• Crew members, especially those with significant customer contact, can work at most 60 hours per week with at least one day off per week
• All crew members need to be trained and retrained in personal hygiene techniques
• All crew members get paid sick leave while on board/during contract
• Max number of crew members per crew cabin (2-3?)

 

Food Service

• Buffets must not be self serve.  Buffets can still be all you can eat, but all items must transferred to the passenger's plate by the food service crew.
• Self serve drink stations should be eliminated - food service crew can deliver drinks to the cruise passenger.

 

Customer Service

• Better cancellation policies, with the ability for passengers to cancel (for any reason) within 72 hours with a minimal fee.
• If a pandemic has been declared, no fee will be assessed upon passenger cancellation of cruise.
• Refunds must be processed and deposited in the passenger's credit card account with 72 hours.

 

Cruise Line Financial Operations

• Cruise line companies must be incorporated in a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise ships for the cruise line companies must must be registered to a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise line companies must have a minimum amount of cash on their balance sheet, in proportion to the number of passengers/days/revenues

 

I have highlighted in yellow what is never going to happen.

 

DON

[iancal]

Money talks.  

 

Besides the jurisdictional issues, the cruise lines spend hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying and  donating to federal election campaigns.    Don't forget, these are not US Corporations.  Anything but.  And the CLIA certainly has no interest in promoting any of these since they represent cruise line interests alone.

 

Do you really expect change?

Edited March 30, 2020 by iancal

[CruiserBruce]

I was reading back through this. The OP had this comment: 

 

- Cruise ship doctors and nurses my be educated and licensed from first-world, developed nations.  They must have graduated from reputable universities (for doctors), reputable institutions for nurses.  Doctors and nurses must have practiced their craft in reputable hospitals and/or settings.

 

Having met Medical staff on most of our 22 cruises (casually...DW is an RN, I was a paramedic, both of us know nurses who have served on cruise ships)...I am not aware of any medical personnel who were not Western trained, and carried the appropriate training and certification, with experience, in either the ER or the ICU/CCU. Not sure why the OP thinks this doesn't already exist.

 

 

[rdsxgrl28]

And Mary Poppins could make the Banks children could fly!!!!

[clo]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

reputable institutions for nurses

OP may not realize that RNs have at least a bachelor's degree, frequently a master's.

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, clo said:

OP may not realize that RNs have at least a bachelor's degree, frequently a master's.

Not true. Some have Bachelors, some don't. A smaller number have Master's. There are 2 year and 3 year RNs. Depending on the state and educational requirements. 

[zzzz8888]

What I originally posted are "aspirational ideals" that could possibly be adopted by the cruise lines.  I understand the cruise lines will not adopt a great majority of these suggestions nor are they bound by any law to do so.  However, I have the feeling that some governments and the marketplace (possibly the lack of customers) will eventually force cruise lines to adopt many of these guidelines.

 

At an absolute minimum, I am hoping for the following below which should not cause an inordinate amount of money and are guidelines which can be implemented relatively quickly:

• Cruise lines must have pre-existing agreements (published and reviewable by cruise passengers) in place with countries (where the ship is visiting) for handling and offloading sick passengers

• Cruise lines must have strict protocols (published and reviewable by all passengers) in place for another COVID-19 or another similar medical outbreak
• Protocols must be known by all crew members.  Training must be performed to adhere to protocols.
• Doctors and nurses must have practiced their craft in reputable hospitals and/or settings (and must be trained in infectious disease/quarantine handling).
• Surgical masks (and if necessary, N95 masks) must be made available to all crew and passengers.  Cruise ships must travel with a minimal number of masks per passenger/crew/ per day for the duration of the cruise.
• All passengers must be tested for COVID-19 using rapid COVID-19 test kits (when it eventually becomes available) before embarkation and disembarkation
• Buffets must not be self serve.  Buffets can still be all you can eat, but all items must transferred to the passenger's plate by the food service crew.

I believe (and yes, I understand this is a guess) COVID-19 is not going away any time soon.  I believe many people and cruise lines are under the impression this is a one-time event that lasts a few months.  Unfortunately, the virus has gotten such a foothold on the planet where we can expect to have at least a few infection waves.  Worst-case scenario is this becomes a seasonal event.  Flattening the curve has only prolonged the pain, transforming this into a multiyear/wave event rather than a one time event.  Even if vaccines are available, I can imagine the vaccines will work as well as the flu vaccine, which is to say it will only be partially effective at best.  Just recall the success in a vaccine for the common cold...  I hope I am wrong though!

 

Thus, the question for cruise lines is how do they deal with such a threat?  There will be another COVID-19 outbreak (if it's not COVID, then perhaps something similar) on a cruise ship when the ships start sailing again.  What will the cruise lines do to prevent another outbreak on board a ship?  Will there be effective protocols, training, equipment, etc. in place when this does happen again?

 

Cruise lines haven't demonstrated I should trust them if an outbreak does occur on a ship.  The only actions I've heard from the cruise lines (at least actions I've heard publicly espoused to a large extent) include temperature screenings upon embarkation and requiring passengers over 70 years old to have a doctor's note.  I have yet to hear - and maybe I have to look for this information, but cruise lines need to be publicizing this information front and center - protocols implemented by the crew when the next outbreak occurs.

 

Cruise lines can and should take the medicine now.  Take the short term pain for a long term gain.  Or they can bury their heads in the sand and hope this goes away.  Consumers will be scared of the cruise lines for years to come and the cruise industry will not get back to its peak of the last few years until a decade or so pass, if ever.  I don't want to see that happen.

[zzzz8888]

7 hours ago, iancal said:

Money talks.  

 

Besides the jurisdictional issues, the cruise lines spend hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying and  donating to federal election campaigns.    Don't forget, these are not US Corporations.  Anything but.  And the CLIA certainly has no interest in promoting any of these since they represent cruise line interests alone.

 

Do you really expect change?

 

I definitely agree money talks.  Do I expect change?  Perhaps not in the next few months.  But when people are avoiding cruises like the plague, when the second wave of coronavirus hits - and ultimately, when the financials are going to be even worse than they are now (when money is screaming), they will be forced to change, at least a little.

[zzzz8888]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Not true. Some have Bachelors, some don't. A smaller number have Master's. There are 2 year and 3 year RNs. Depending on the state and educational requirements. 

Yes, that's correct.

 

However, let's ignore their medical backgrounds for now.  The medical staff and facilities/equipment have failed the cruise passengers.  For example, the stories coming out of the Zaandam are horrible.  Supposedly, staff are ignoring infected crew and cruise passengers.  I've also read the medical staff are "intimidated" by the entire situation and are at a loss as to what to do.  I don't necessarily blame the medical staff for being overwhelmed as this is an entirely new situation that few have ever encountered.  But it is still very worrying the cruise line medical staff seem entirely incapable of even partially dealing with the situation.

[Sailorgrl7392]

On 3/30/2020 at 2:09 AM, zzzz8888 said:

I am looking forward to the day when I can get back on a cruise.  However, I need to know cruise lines have made significant steps in improving their handling of medical issues among other things.  I haven't heard much from the cruise lines in how they will deal with COVID-19-like events in the future.  What follows are my suggestions for cruise line passengers before they step foot on-board another cruise.  I understand cruise lines may not be able implement all of my suggestions.  I also understand adopting these suggestions will increase the cost of cruises and/or may decrease the level of service.  However, they need to take concrete steps towards prescribed solutions rather than ad hoc, chaotic responses.  Cruise passengers need detailed action plans rather than cosmetic changes.  This is what I could come up with right now.  I'll add more if I come up with more ideas.  What's your Bill of Rights?

 

Medical

• Cruise lines must have pre-existing agreements (published and reviewable by cruise passengers) in place with countries (where the ship is visiting) for handling and offloading sick passengers- they do, some countries allow it, others don't unless its an emergency. infant they have entire agreements regarding passengers/crew changes/ port info. cool book. worth a read- guide to port entry. 
• Cruise lines must have strict protocols (published and reviewable by all passengers) in place for another COVID-19 or another similar medical outbreak- they do already. maybe not as extensive but they do have emergency plans in place. there is a room onboard devoted to published items the company/maritime industry publishes, plus a bunch of books and binders.
• Protocols must be known by all crew members.  Training must be performed to adhere to protocols.- yay another manual to train and make people adhere too. they go through so much training adding to it is a pain.
• Cruise ship doctors and nurses my be educated and licensed from first-world, developed nations.  They must have graduated from reputable universities (for doctors), reputable institutions for nurses.  Doctors and nurses must have practiced their craft in reputable hospitals and/or settings.- Can i be honest for a second? no one from "first world- developed nations" wants to work for cruise lines, why? because the cruise lines don't pay what doctors/nurses actually deserve. while having an american medical degree or nursing degree is nice and good, there are some very talented foreign doctors/nurses out there. just because your from a american school doesn't make you brilliant. 
• Cruise ship doctors and nurses must be directly employed by the cruise line, i.e. not contracted out- Yep they have that already kind of. all the deck and engine officers are trained in basic and advance medical providing. Honestly i wouldn't trust myself giving medical care to a fellow worker let alone someone else taking care of me unless it was dire emergency. i'll quote a captain i had once "leave it to the professionals" also see above why medical professionals aren't jumping at the bit to work on cruise ships.

• Each cruise ship must have a minimum doctor and nurse/(crew + passenger) ratio-thats insane. but i guess if you count the license/specific crew then sure, i'll buy it. cruise lines are all about money. they make it so less people can do one persons job. to hire more people=more money. so realistic if we use a 20:1 person ratio based on 2000 passengers then you need 100 doctors. where are they going to live? 
• Medical facilities must be expanded, with the number of beds/facilities proportional with the number of crew and passengers on the cruise- where is this "expanded medical facility" going? the ship is only so big. they can't just add space when they want to. the medical facilities are made for emergencies. 
• Cruise ships must include medical care/evacuation within the cruise price  or at the very least, provide medical care/evacuation at reasonable and customary rates- no. cruise insurance takes care of that. the cruise lines don't want the responsibility on their backs to do medical evacs off their ships. supply and demand for rates. the medical care is for emergencies and convince if not a medical emergency. if you need it, you will pay it. they aren't floating hospitals, they are a business in it to make money. 
• Surgical masks (and if necessary, N95 masks) must be made available to all crew and passengers.  Cruise ships must travel with a minimal number of masks per passenger/crew/ per day for the duration of the cruise.-again cruise ships/ships in general are only so big. im not aware of ships having extra broom closets around. but if they do its used for something else. if you keep extras how many should they keep? one per person? three per person? if a cruise ship has 2000 people then thats 4000 masks. i guess they need to find a really big broom closet. 
• All passengers must be tested for COVID-19 using rapid COVID-19 test kits (when it eventually becomes available) before embarkation and disembarkation
• The cruise ship must have an adequate supply of rapid COVID-19 tests on the ship-i guess they need to find a really big broom closet. 

 

Cruise Ship Design

• Certainly not an expert in this, but consider installing HEPA filters and/or UV light cleaners in ventilation system. 
• Again, certainly not an expert in this - for new ships, all staterooms should have negative pressure ventilation

 

Crew

• Crew members, especially those with significant customer contact, can work at most 60 hours per week with at least one day off per week- i work on ships and i work 56 hours a week without anything else going on. theres no days off. theres no down time. when we need to work, we work. who's gonna replace all these crew members with time off? what happens if a day off coincides with someone else taking a sick day. then you have multiple people down. who's gonna pick up the extra work. you can only have so many people onboard and the cruise line won't pay for extra people. they want the most money with least amount of people.  also who does this apply to? just the waiters/room stewards/front desk/cruise staff? what about the people on the bridge/engine room/kitchen? do they not apply? all those people for sure work more than 60 hours easily a week.
• All crew members need to be trained and retrained in personal hygiene techniques- they are. if they choose to follow it its more on them. unless they hire crew to police people onboard.
• All crew members get paid sick leave while on board/during contract- sick leave sounds like such a nice luxury at sea. is there such a thing? i get a barcalounger in my contract. 
• Max number of crew members per crew cabin (2-3?)

 

Food Service

• Buffets must not be self serve.  Buffets can still be all you can eat, but all items must transferred to the passenger's plate by the food service crew.
• Self serve drink stations should be eliminated - food service crew can deliver drinks to the cruise passenger.- Little rant coming, not at you, just about this issue. Ok so princess already does this and let me assure you of something. they suck at it. they can barley get it right. also they get stingy and spiteful about it like they will only bring you one and then you cant flag them down or the cruise line decided after breakfast you can't get juice. no. just a firm no. i hated it. i want to get my own drinks and ill just leave it at that.  

 

Customer Service

• Better cancellation policies, with the ability for passengers to cancel (for any reason) within 72 hours with a minimal fee.- Yes and no. people started to take advantage of the refund the cruise lines were giving and rebooking at a cheaper price. 
• If a pandemic has been declared, no fee will be assessed upon passenger cancellation of cruise. 
• Refunds must be processed and deposited in the passenger's credit card account with 72 hours.- Please read this again. its easier said then done. what makes you think its so easy to just refund money within 3 days? if you have 3000 passengers its not just an easy thing to coordinate refunding everyone within that time frame. 

 

Cruise Line Financial Operations

• Cruise line companies must be incorporated in a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise ships for the cruise line companies must must be registered to a developed, first world country with strong cruise line regulations and customer protections
• Cruise line companies must have a minimum amount of cash on their balance sheet, in proportion to the number of passengers/days/revenues

While i think you ideas are great and changes will probably be made if/when the cruise lines come back. I have a couple of issues with these ideas. First, can i ask you a serious question? you do realize that ships are only so big right? Also are you aware of how many manuals and reading material ships/cruise ships have onboard already by "arm chair quarterbacks" onshore? Adding these small things you recommend are a lot more of easily said then done.  I'll comment on a couple of things you mentioned and give my 10cents. please take it for what it is, my opinion. I've written my responses in bold to lessen confusion, ive also commented down below. 

 

while they may sound harsh or mean, im sorry. i don't really want to lessen the issue of this pandemic but there are some truths about the ideas you came up with. cruise ships aren't like vacations on land. there are limitations.they are only so big and only have so much room and capabilities. i mean if they wanted to make room they could launch the lifeboats and put people in there *joke not a real thing* the cruise lines won't hire 20 people to do a job they know one person can do. its a money thing. the entire maritime industry is like that. the navy hires 20 people to do a job the maritime industry makes one person do. while it sounds nice. it isn't realistic. the entire industry likes money. so if they can do it for cheap, they will.

 

While i agree with you that they could do better, i think it come down to the customers more than the cruise line itself. you wrote "Cruise lines haven't demonstrated I should trust them if an outbreak does occur on a ship." you do realize they have this happen all the time with the norovirus outbreak. they have procedures in place for it. the real issue your forgetting? human factor. ships/cruise lines can prepare for the worst of everything. they have books/binders/forms/checklist on how to deal with issues. you name the issue, some "arm chair quarterback" in the office ashore wrote a memo about it. *believe me i've read them" heres the issue- people lie on those forms they give you when you board the ship. people probably lied here or didn't know they had it. they don't want to miss their vacation they saved so hard for and took time off for. so what should the cruise line do if people lie? i guess all those lovely memos just got thrown out the window. are they going to police the issue? if so how? that requires more man power and more money. also keep in mind the cruise lines aren't hospitals so they can only deal to keep patients stable to be eventually transferred ashore or medivaced.

 

id like to point something else out. the cruises sell regardless. a couple of years ago i sailed in a recession. the ship was empty and it was when ncl was coming out with the free at sea to attract new customers because people weren't cruising. people still went. if theres a market for it and the price is right people will go.

 

i'll be honest and im not downplaying anyone. yes these are scary times but we can't stop living. eventually it will all be ok. they will figure it out. its not the first pandemic the world has seen and it won't be the last. living in a bubble isn't the answer. the travel industry will need us just as much as the small business after this. but i have a cruise booked for october and unless the cruise line cancels, i'm still going. why? because i've seen and experienced scarier stuff in my life. *if people believe me that there is such a thing* 

 

 

[Pyrate13]

Have to disagree with the thought that people will not cruise and there will be a lack of customers. Just read thru the threads on these boards and others and you find many folks chomping at the bit to book new trips, or rebook cancelled cruises, and others that are hoping that their already booked cruise does not get cancelled. We, for example, have two on the books and no intention of cancelling either of them. 

Cruise ships are not hospitals and expecting them to be staffed and supplied like they are is just not reasonable in my opinion. You know the risks when you book and if anyone is not comfortable with them then they need to find a different way to vacation.

[CruiserBruce]

5 hours ago, zzzz8888 said:

Yes, that's correct.

 

However, let's ignore their medical backgrounds for now.  The medical staff and facilities/equipment have failed the cruise passengers.  For example, the stories coming out of the Zaandam are horrible.  Supposedly, staff are ignoring infected crew and cruise passengers.  I've also read the medical staff are "intimidated" by the entire situation and are at a loss as to what to do.  I don't necessarily blame the medical staff for being overwhelmed as this is an entirely new situation that few have ever encountered.  But it is still very worrying the cruise line medical staff seem entirely incapable of even partially dealing with the situation.

"Supposedly" and "I've read" is not factual info. If you are getting this info from the media, it doesn't mean it tells both sides of the story.

 

I believe the complement on Zaandam is 2 doctors and 3 nurses. If that amount of staff were presented with about 200 patients, the common practice would be triage...the sorting of priorities by resources you have available. That involves tough decisions, and some patients will feel left out, or shorted, or that there is chaos, which sounds very much like what you are describing, from the layman's point of view.

[Joebucks]

cheng once again showing why just because someone has an opinion and internet access, that it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Joebucks

[Nic6318]

7 hours ago, zzzz8888 said:

Yes, that's correct.

 

However, let's ignore their medical backgrounds for now.  The medical staff and facilities/equipment have failed the cruise passengers.  For example, the stories coming out of the Zaandam are horrible.  Supposedly, staff are ignoring infected crew and cruise passengers.  I've also read the medical staff are "intimidated" by the entire situation and are at a loss as to what to do.  I don't necessarily blame the medical staff for being overwhelmed as this is an entirely new situation that few have ever encountered.  But it is still very worrying the cruise line medical staff seem entirely incapable of even partially dealing with the situation.

 

Hi 

I don't think you are giving the staff of the cruise ships any slack. 

 

There is no large city hospital emergeny department that can handle being swamped with patients without the support of the rest of the hospital and very often need to also rely on other nearby hospitals.

 

Of course medical staff were intimidated. A handful of people, facing an epedimic in a confined enviroment, with a deadly disease. Do you think there are many out there who could have handled it better? I am sure they did their best. Likely, their first recommendation was to have the sick evacuated, which naturally would not have happened. No fault of the medical staff. Face it, the world isn't equipped to handle this sort of thing, to point your finger at some ship's medical staff, is just not fair. 

 

Responsibility starts at the top. If you do want to find fault, why not pick on the captain? Did you never think, that if you got on a ship or plane, or went anywhere that isn't readilly accessible and something bad happened to you, you might be considered lucky to get home again. 

[sparks1093]

7 hours ago, zzzz8888 said:

Yes, that's correct.

 

However, let's ignore their medical backgrounds for now.  The medical staff and facilities/equipment have failed the cruise passengers.  For example, the stories coming out of the Zaandam are horrible.  Supposedly, staff are ignoring infected crew and cruise passengers.  I've also read the medical staff are "intimidated" by the entire situation and are at a loss as to what to do.  I don't necessarily blame the medical staff for being overwhelmed as this is an entirely new situation that few have ever encountered.  But it is still very worrying the cruise line medical staff seem entirely incapable of even partially dealing with the situation.

You should probably read the cruise ship contract clauses regarding medical care onboard. It's entirely likely that any major medical emergency is going to overwhelm the staff/facilities/equipment and everyone is warned of this in the contract. Here's what Carnival's contract has to say as a for instance:

The Guest admits a full understanding of the character of the Vessel and assumes all risks incident to travel and transportation and handling of Guests and cargo. While at sea or in port the availability of medical care may be limited or delayed. Guest acknowledges that all or part of their voyage may be in areas where medical care and evacuation may not be available. Guest agrees to indemnify and reimburse Carnival in the event Carnival elects to advance the cost of emergency medical care, including medical care provided ashore as well as transportation and/or lodging in connection therewith. Guests who embark in violation of the Ticket Contract terms assume all associated risks and agree to indemnify and reimburse Carnival for all resulting losses, costs and expenses, including without limitation those related to the Vessel's deviation from its scheduled route, and other expenses attributable to disembarkation of such Guests. Guests are further advised to refer to sections 5 and 10 below which specify their responsibilities and obligations in these situations.

 

In any event I would not let the absence of any of the items that you list prevent me from sailing in the future.

Edited March 31, 2020 by sparks1093

[iancal]

Stories are meaningless.   Especially second, third, and fourth hand stories.

 

Only facts matter (other than during election campaigns).

 

I expect the facts will come out as litigation procedures  commence and discovery information becomes public over the next few years. 

 

Plus of course the occasional whistle blower or some cruiser who has managed to capture disturbing images on his or her device that tell a story and provide some factual data points.  Similar to the Zaandam image that we removed from the HAL forum several days ago by the moderator.

Edited March 31, 2020 by iancal

[clo]

18 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Not true. Some have Bachelors, some don't. A smaller number have Master's. There are 2 year and 3 year RNs. Depending on the state and educational requirements. 

Thanks. I didn't know that. Seems all the nurses I've know had four year bachelor's at least.

[zzzz8888]

Unfortunately, I think many Cruise Critic members are living in the cruise world bubble where faults, issues, and oversights by the cruise industry are dismissed and ignored, attributed to financial limitations, logistics, etc.  I understand that point of view and accept it.

 

But when it comes to matters like this - perception trumps facts.  The perception and PR being broadcasted to the world by cruise companies are:

• Not keeping their passengers safe.  To be blunt, cruise passengers are dying in substantial numbers in a short period of time.
• Have no (apparent) safety protocols.
• Cruise ships are efficient vessels to spread coronavirus.
• Quarantining on board cruise ship doesn't work - you don't want to be quarantined on a cruise ship when an outbreak occurs.
• Have medical staff that are overwhelmed, incompetent, understaffed.  Lack of medical equipment on board, etc.
• Governments don't care about cruisers.
• Cruise lines indeed don't have much, if any responsibility (as mentioned by @sparks1093) to protect its passengers.  Many ignored or were ignorant of this in the past.  But no more.

We can argue whether all of this is actually true or not.  But there's no doubt this is the perception in 99% of the world who are not CC forum members or hard core cruisers.  The original point of my post is cruise lines need to battle this horrible perception and regain trust by taking steps that show they're trying to improve.  They have done little to nothing of this sort in the last few months.

 

I would love to see and witness CC forum members and hard core cruisers prop up the industry when it start operations again.  Perhaps the hard core cruisers can keep the industry afloat - for a while.  But there is a difference between keeping a cruise industry on life support vs one that is thriving.  Repeat cruisers are not enough for the latter.  The cruise industry needs to take action now to reassure the other 99%.  I would love to be wrong here, but let's see what happens when operations start again to see what the drop in revenue and passenger volumes will be.

Edited April 1, 2020 by zzzz8888