End of Safety Muster Drill....?

[rolloman]

38 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Whether the technology allows for it is pretty irrelevant, if the governing bodies do not "get their head out of the sand" as you put it, and change the regulations.  As noted above, the safety information is considered by SOLAS to be secondary to the physical muster.  Muster means to assemble or gather.  Individual reporting would not meet that definition, and so would require a revision to SOLAS.  Another requirement of SOLAS for all drills is that the drill be as close to a real emergency as possible.  Again, individual reporting would not meet that.  So, if you want to petition the IMO to revise SOLAS, be my guest, but know that they work at a pace that makes "glacial" seem quick.

 

USCG also requires crew to report to their abandon ship station with their immersion suit and their lifejackets, even if the ship is equipped with a free-fall boat, where the immersion suit would be dangerous in the closed environment, and the lifejackets could become projectiles.  So, even the IMO is not the only ones who have not revised requirements due to changing technology.

We both know change is coming....This current joke of a muster drill needs revamping regardless of the virus situation. Just like the FDIC recently removed barriers and streamlined their approval process, the cruise ships will have similar expedited new process put into place and not limited to muster drill. Once again I offered an idea to an OP question and almost immediately it is met with negativity by a select few instead of sorting through the idea. Watch what happens.....shorter cruises, private destinations, less passengers, reconfigured  venues....all coming to a cruise line near you.

[rolloman]

18 minutes ago, NavyCruiser said:

 

Here's my take:

Upon boarding, everyone has their muster station clearly printed on their board pass, example:  Muster Station "D" on Starboard outside, Deck 4.  Everyone must stop by their muster station at their leisure from 11 am - 3 pm to get their card electronically scanned, to make sure everyone in their family knows exactly where muster station is, to have kids banded, will only take up one or two staff member per station.  

Then watch video on in-cabin TV before 3:30pm, then each cabin must use in-cabin phone to call special muster #, punch in special code shown at end of video to certify that they've watch video.  Example, at end of video, pick up phone, dial ext 9999, enter code 5678, done.  

Cruise lines can work out better details later, like changing the special code every 30 minutes, or by deck, or whatever to make it compliant.

Think the whole idea is to keep from having 3000 - 6000 new people driving/flying in every week from all over the world, then immediately congregating into a tight space to share cooties...

Agreed shipmate, pretty close concept to what I mentioned. However, I think the remote on the smart tv can handle the acceptance code versus dialing a busy telephone line. When the passenger stops by their assigned muster station, they can ask questions, they can see a demo of life jacket. All the boxes are checked without changing rules. Heck, it would almost be like checking the kids into kids club. It is open on embarkation day, everyone at their leisure, goes up and meets the camp counselor, checks in, gets a tour.   

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, rolloman said:

We both know change is coming....This current joke of a muster drill needs revamping regardless of the virus situation. Just like the FDIC recently removed barriers and streamlined their approval process, the cruise ships will have similar expedited new process put into place and not limited to muster drill. Once again I offered an idea to an OP question and almost immediately it is met with negativity by a select few instead of sorting through the idea. Watch what happens.....shorter cruises, private destinations, less passengers, reconfigured  venues....all coming to a cruise line near you.

And none of the bolded changes you propose require statutory change.  The IMO is currently stuck on a decision as to whether cooking oil is a MARPOL Annex I substance (oily waste) or a MARPOL Annex V substance (garbage) and if it is V, then can it be mixed with Annex I.  So, I don't see a change in cruise ship muster procedure any time in the near future.

 

Just like the lawsuit against Celebrity, brought by crew, that mentions that crew drills were continued, I don't see that portion of the suit going anywhere, as the crew drills are statutory, and won't change until the laws change.  And, even when the IMO changes SOLAS, each member nation must then pass the same resolution into their law, extending the process.

Edited April 20, 2020 by chengkp75

[time4u2go]

42 minutes ago, NavyCruiser said:

 

Here's my take:

Upon boarding, everyone has their muster station clearly printed on their board pass, example:  Muster Station "D" on Starboard outside, Deck 4.  Everyone must stop by their muster station at their leisure from 11 am - 3 pm to get their card electronically scanned, to make sure everyone in their family knows exactly where muster station is, to have kids banded, will only take up one or two staff member per station.  

Then watch video on in-cabin TV before 3:30pm, then each cabin must use in-cabin phone to call special muster #, punch in special code shown at end of video to certify that they've watch video.  Example, at end of video, pick up phone, dial ext 9999, enter code 5678, done.  

Cruise lines can work out better details later, like changing the special code every 30 minutes, or by deck, or whatever to make it compliant.

Think the whole idea is to keep from having 3000 - 6000 new people driving/flying in every week from all over the world, then immediately congregating into a tight space to share cooties...

No can do.  See post #99.

[time4u2go]

25 minutes ago, rolloman said:

Agreed shipmate, pretty close concept to what I mentioned. However, I think the remote on the smart tv can handle the acceptance code versus dialing a busy telephone line. When the passenger stops by their assigned muster station, they can ask questions, they can see a demo of life jacket. All the boxes are checked without changing rules. Heck, it would almost be like checking the kids into kids club. It is open on embarkation day, everyone at their leisure, goes up and meets the camp counselor, checks in, gets a tour.   

No, they're not.  From post #99:

 

" Muster means to assemble or gather.  Individual reporting would not meet that definition, and so would require a revision to SOLAS.  Another requirement of SOLAS for all drills is that the drill be as close to a real emergency as possible.  Again, individual reporting would not meet that."

[rolloman]

14 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

No, they're not.  From post #99:

 

" Muster means to assemble or gather.  Individual reporting would not meet that definition, and so would require a revision to SOLAS.  Another requirement of SOLAS for all drills is that the drill be as close to a real emergency as possible.  Again, individual reporting would not meet that."

Thanks for reading my posts....however I am done responding as I have decided I will no longer get baited into CC bans.

 

Great post OP.....I am sure the muster drill will be one of many items the cruise industry will have to consider for modification to promote safe distancing while onboard. 

[Dinglebert]

19 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

Hand sanitizers are not that great a help in preventing transmission of a virus present in respiratory droplets. Corona transmission is very different from Noro.

No its not.  They are both respiratory virus which transmit in exactly the same way.  They have very different out comes if caught and have a different rate of spread but they are caught in exactly the same way.

 

Hand Sanitizers can be of great benefit but washing hands is as effective if not more effective.   Its about the touching of surfaces with hands.  The virus can sit on surfaces for extended periods of time.  If you touch it with your hand then it transfers to your hand.  However if you don't touch your face afterwards you will be fine as long as you have washed it off your hands or killed it with the alcohol in the sanitizer.

[Biker19]

🍟

[lenquixote66]

4 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

And that was their muster station. A bit different than a cabin. 

Well,my thought of having it on the cabin TV would be rather unique.

 

(is the Milwaukee eight like the Chigago 7;)?

[Ocean Boy]

46 minutes ago, Dinglebert said:

No its not.  They are both respiratory virus which transmit in exactly the same way.  They have very different out comes if caught and have a different rate of spread but they are caught in exactly the same way.

 

Hand Sanitizers can be of great benefit but washing hands is as effective if not more effective.   Its about the touching of surfaces with hands.  The virus can sit on surfaces for extended periods of time.  If you touch it with your hand then it transfers to your hand.  However if you don't touch your face afterwards you will be fine as long as you have washed it off your hands or killed it with the alcohol in the sanitizer.

Noro is NOT a respiratory virus. Noro is GI virus spread by the fecal oral route. Yes, it is spread by touching surfaces, or eating food, that have been contaminated by your, or someone elses, hands. Then your hands, or contaminated utensil or food,  goes into your mouth. The way those surfaces get contaminated in the first place is people who are shedding the virus use the bathroom then do not wash their hands sufficiently before touching objects or food. The way that the virus is sometimes spead through droplets is from people vomiting and the virus being being expelled form the body in that manner. That does NOT make it a respiratory virus. And most people tend to avoid another persons vomitus. It is also extremely contagious. It actually takes less than 100 viral particles to cause clinical infection.

 

Now, unless the virus has substantially evolved since my days in medical school that, in brief for Cruise Critic, is the story that I have no intention of debating.

[LMaxwell]

[LMaxwell]

Is there anything that requires all mustering and lifeboat drills to be done at the same time? Could they stagger musters by making groups more granular?  You might go to station D; but you could be in group D1, D2, D3, etc.  Call musters for each station by group numbers.  Dismiss them; 10 minutes later when stairways have cleared called group 2 for each station, then so on and so forth.  Everyone musters, but at staggered times.  

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, LMaxwell said:

Is there anything that requires all mustering and lifeboat drills to be done at the same time? Could they stagger musters by making groups more granular?  You might go to station D; but you could be in group D1, D2, D3, etc.  Call musters for each station by group numbers.  Dismiss them; 10 minutes later when stairways have cleared called group 2 for each station, then so on and so forth.  Everyone musters, but at staggered times.  

Again, you would have to lock down everyone in their cabins for the duration of the staggered musters, or there would be chaos as crew tried to sort out who had to go to muster at each time, and who was just wandering around the ship.  Given the confusion during an "all at once" muster drill, how much confusion would there be with many separate drills, and how long would each one last, and how long would the total be?  And, even then, this would not meet the intent of the "as close to real as possible" requirement.

[Ocean Boy]

8 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

Is there anything that requires all mustering and lifeboat drills to be done at the same time? Could they stagger musters by making groups more granular?  You might go to station D; but you could be in group D1, D2, D3, etc.  Call musters for each station by group numbers.  Dismiss them; 10 minutes later when stairways have cleared called group 2 for each station, then so on and so forth.  Everyone musters, but at staggered times.  

That should make the first day aboard ship somewhat less than fun. And it would seem they would have to have everyone aboard much earlier than is required now to get all these groups done.

[Dinglebert]

11 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

Noro is NOT a respiratory virus. Noro is GI virus spread by the fecal oral route. Yes, it is spread by touching surfaces, or eating food, that have been contaminated by your, or someone elses, hands. Then your hands, or contaminated utensil or food,  goes into your mouth. The way those surfaces get contaminated in the first place is people who are shedding the virus use the bathroom then do not wash their hands sufficiently before touching objects or food. The way that the virus is sometimes spead through droplets is from people vomiting and the virus being being expelled form the body in that manner. That does NOT make it a respiratory virus. And most people tend to avoid another persons vomitus. It is also extremely contagious. It actually takes less than 100 viral particles to cause clinical infection.

 

Now, unless the virus has substantially evolved since my days in medical school that, in brief for Cruise Critic, is the story that I have no intention of debating.

They are both transmitted via the mouth.  There is recent evidence that indeed things have moved on from your days in medical school and that the norovirus can be transmitted in respiritory droplets.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/noroviruses-may-spread-through-the-air/

[LMaxwell]

9 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, you would have to lock down everyone in their cabins for the duration of the staggered musters, or there would be chaos as crew tried to sort out who had to go to muster at each time, and who was just wandering around the ship.  Given the confusion during an "all at once" muster drill, how much confusion would there be with many separate drills, and how long would each one last, and how long would the total be?  And, even then, this would not meet the intent of the "as close to real as possible" requirement.

Good points; just throwing some ideas out there how to have all people physically identify and gather at a muster station but also promote a solution allowing physical distancing. 

[LMaxwell]

8 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

That should make the first day aboard ship somewhat less than fun. And it would seem they would have to have everyone aboard much earlier than is required now to get all these groups done.

 

It may be less fun; but the idea is to find ways to comply with muster requirements. I could see ships leaving later; not requiring people to arrive earlier.  Run staggered muster drills from 3pm-5:30pm or thereabouts. Just ideas.  I don't think solutions like video played in stateroom will be sufficient to address requirements. 

[Ocean Boy]

8 minutes ago, Dinglebert said:

They are both transmitted via the mouth.  There is recent evidence that indeed things have moved on from your days in medical school and that the norovirus can be transmitted in respiritory droplets.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/noroviruses-may-spread-through-the-air/

That article uses words like possible and maybe. Nothing in it states that anything is now changed. Noro is still currently classified as a GI, not a respiratory, virus. Maybe that will change someday but not today.

 

As far as being transmitted via the mouth, that is a very big opening through which all kinds of "things" enter the body.

[lovescats5]

Everyone is giving their opinion but no one knows when this virus will be gone enough to start cruising or even going to the store again.  For as long as it takes to get a vaccine the stores, small businesses, and cruise lines cannot stay afloat.  What everyone is guessing is that it will be forever before we get back to a new normal but then we will have no place to go anyway because all the stores will be locked up tight and the bankruptcies will be in the thousands.  I am over 70 and do I want to get sick, no, but I am getting tired of being told I cannot go here or there, that I need a Dr. note if I want to cruise, or whatever it is that someone else wants to dictate that I have to do.  I am ready to start living again and knowing there could be challenges is what I understand.  So, that is my opinion and I do not need to have all you people who think the cruise lines will never sail again jump on me and if you want to tell me I am not understanding what is actually going on keep your opinion to yourself.  I see enough negative going around now for the next century.  If Ovation sails to Alaska Sept. 4, I will be on it even if I have to pay a Dr. to sign the stupid letter if it is still needed.

[Billy Baltic]

Is there space for more muster stations so there are less people at each?

[davekathy]

51 minutes ago, lenquixote66 said:

Well,my thought of having it on the cabin TV would be rather unique.

 

(is the Milwaukee eight like the Chigago 7;)?

Lenny... Milwaukee 8 is Harley Davidson's newest( introduced in 2016) engine design. Eight valves. Four per cylinder head.  

Edited April 20, 2020 by davekathy

[Dinglebert]

20 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

 

 

As far as being transmitted via the mouth, that is a very big opening through which all kinds of "things" enter the body.

Both are transmitted into the body via the respiritory tract.  Your original claim was that hand sanitiser are not effective in reducing the spread of the corono virus.  My original point was that they are. I stand by my point for the reasons I put, which are also the claim of viritually every health care professional and body world wide.

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, Billy Baltic said:

Is there space for more muster stations so there are less people at each?

Each space, whether it is outdoors under the boats, or indoors, must meet construction requirements for a muster location (ingress/egress, volume, ventilation, structural fire protection, distance and pathway to the boats), and must pass trials using "crowd panic" software that predicts what will happen in an emergency, and where the problem areas would be, and where potential entrapment areas (caused by too many people using too small an area) would be.  Once these criteria are met, the ship can request a change to muster locations, but this costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to go through the approval process and then the construction necessary to make the new spaces into muster locations.  So, it is very rare for a ship to change muster locations throughout its lifetime, and I would doubt that there would be any movement to making more spaces into muster locations.  The other thing is that the passenger muster is primarily about accountability and control of the passengers, not about getting into the lifeboats.  So, if you multiply the number of locations that passengers muster at, you increase the need for secondary muster locations if the primary ones are not available due to the emergency (like fire), and you can also increase the likelihood of missing someone with many stations.

[lenquixote66]

7 minutes ago, davekathy said:

Lenny... Milwaukee 8 is Harley Davidson's newest( introduced in 2016) engine design. Eight valves. Four per cylinder head.  

Aha,thanks for clarifying ,Dave.😀

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, Dinglebert said:

Both are transmitted into the body via the respiritory tract.  Your original claim was that hand sanitiser are not effective in reducing the spread of the corono virus.  My original point was that they are. I stand by my point for the reasons I put, which are also the claim of viritually every health care professional and body world wide.

While there has been some speculation about the transmission of noro via droplets (vomiting or sneezing), it is not transmitted into your body via the respiratory tract.  Noro is a gastro-intestinal disease, and the droplets come from a person's esophagus (from the stomach), and not the trachea (windpipe), nor is the virus taken into your trachea and lungs (a respiratory disease), but goes down your esophagus to your stomach, where the virus flourishes.