MSC Cruises going bankrupt?

[aprilF]

3 hours ago, slei15 said:

I went back and looked at my email after the first time I posted. I should have clarified. I was told on the phone day 1 that it would be from sailing date. The email said from submission of preference. All communication I have received since has said since sailing date. 

Youve received communications about your refund after the initial "got your request" auto email that states 60 days from submission?  What kind of written followup and at what increments (a week after the submission, two weeks, month, etc.)?

 

I've received nothing beyond the "we got your request" auto email right after I submitted. 

[slei15]

16 minutes ago, aprilF said:

Youve received communications about your refund after the initial "got your request" auto email that states 60 days from submission?  What kind of written followup and at what increments (a week after the submission, two weeks, month, etc.)?

 

I've received nothing beyond the "we got your request" auto email right after I submitted. 

Nothing specific about a requested refund. I am also a TA and receive emails from them regularly about the updated cancellations, options, choices for clients, etc. I have not actually had myself or a client choose a refund...We were told the 60 days from sailing for port charges and prepaid items. 
 

We did receive our FCC’s last week. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by slei15

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, Beardface said:

 

Gotta love the first comment to that article basically accusing the author of only writing that because he/she owns stock in the company

 

This whole pandemic really has the anti-cruise community emboldened to mouth off at every opportunity, hasn't it

Amen! I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I have to say it's really saddening to me the number of comments I've read online (NOT here, but on social media in general) along the lines of "too bad your cruise got cancelled, other people are dying" or "it's a small price for you to pay so others can live," as if the whole thing were a zero-sum equation. My going on a cruise doesn't automatically condemn others to death any more than my NOT going guarantees their safety. I think such people are simply ignorant about the amount of revenue generated by tourism and the number of people who depend on it, especially the crews.

[BermudaBound2014]

@DCGuy64 you are certainly right there. I am shocked by the number of people who consider cruising downright evil - a pollution generating, worker exploiting, tax evading Industry. I had no idea the industry has so many enemies.

 

I actually had a bit of a tiff with A very good friend of mine who I consider, under normal circumstances, quite compassionate. When the Zandam was coming in After the South America debacle, and was making national news, my friend was adamant that it was the cruisers fault and that anyone who got on a cruise on March 6 should have known better. It wasn’t until I linked her to Dr. Faucis Testimony from March 9, 2020 where he states and I quote, “i think if you’re a healthy young person that there is no reason if you want to go on a cruise ship to go on a cruise ship” That she’s somewhat backtracked her statement. I’m afraid the world needs a scapegoat and cruising might be it

[CGTNORMANDIE]

MSC going bankrupt?  Totally ridiculous...MSC is in better condition than the majors.  The big three are borrowing funds and accumulating debt.  When’s the last time you heard of MSC borrowing money?  Short answer: you haven’t and you won’t.

[cruiseguyinorl]

43 minutes ago, slei15 said:

Nothing specific about a requested refund. I am also a TA and receive emails from them regularly about the updated cancellations, options, choices for clients, etc.

 

Think you might have overlooked the email to TA's dated April 29th that advised of the extension of canceled cruises till July 10th. The part of the sentence in that letter that has everyone up in arms I put in italics.

 

Refunds will be issued the later of either 60 days after the original sail date or 60 days from the date the online form [requesting a refund] is completed.

 

I previously confirmed with them that if you request a refund today for a July 9th sailing for example, the refund would not be generated until 60 days from July 9 or September 9 to be exact. I can understand why folks would be upset about them keeping money for up to 4 months basically. 

 

Just trying to help out @aprilF with her question.

Bret

[slei15]

6 minutes ago, cruiseguyinorl said:

 

Think you might have overlooked the email to TA's dated April 29th that advised of the extension of canceled cruises till July 10th. The part of the sentence in that letter that has everyone up in arms I put in italics.

 

Refunds will be issued the later of either 60 days after the original sail date or 60 days from the date the online form [requesting a refund] is completed.

 

I previously confirmed with them that if you request a refund today for a July 9th sailing for example, the refund would not be generated until 60 days from July 9 or September 9 to be exact. I can understand why folks would be upset about them keeping money for up to 4 months basically. 

 

Just trying to help out @aprilF with her question.

Bret

No...That is one of them I am referring to. I said much earlier in the thread that MSC has been advising the 60 days from sail date policy from the very beginning, which was what stemmed the replies to me. I 100% agree that this is the policy they are using, and was stating that I have been told that since day 1 (though it wasn't in writing until later than that). Aside from those mid-March cruises that were cancelled right at the getgo, I highly doubt there will be many forms filled out after the sail date, so by default, that policy will in most cases be 60 days after the sailing date.

 

I also understand people being upset about their money being held...But being in such an unprecedented situation, we all need to have patience. I have clients still waiting on refunds from March cancelled sailings on Royal, MSC, and Carnival, whether it be the entire cruise price or just port fees and prepaid items. Royal is the only one that I have seen anything out of so far (and they are still owing some people), though we have received FCC's for all of them where applicable. I would rather them hold the cash for a few months and come out the other end solvent and operating, than rush to pay back and either get it wrong (because it is all manual when they are determining how much goes back), or run out of cash partway through refunding and have everyone else be SOL.

[aprilF]

3 hours ago, slei15 said:

Nothing specific about a requested refund. I am also a TA and receive emails from them regularly about the updated cancellations, options, choices for clients, etc. I have not actually had myself or a client choose a refund...We were told the 60 days from sailing for port charges and prepaid items. 
 

We did receive our FCC’s last week. 

 

Thank you.  I am not a TA.  I did not receive any such email.  The only email I have received from MSC about specifically the cancelled cruise I had booked was that first auto generated email that stated 60 days from submission.  MSC needs to inform everyone, not just TAs if they are changing terms.  Simply putting it on the website isnt good enough.

 

To make matters even worse for me, I had actually cancelled my cruise on 3/17, two weeks before my cruise was cancelled.  I was happy to lose my deposit and just have it be done.  When I canceled with MSC directly (via phone) on 3/17 I was told 30 days.  That date has obviously come and gone.  When I got the cruise cancellation notice as if I was still booked, I thought I had better try cancelling again in case the first time didnt take for some reason.  Sure enough it didnt take and I had to cancel a second time on 3/31 and was given the 60 days in writing.

I think part of the frustration is that they seem to keep moving the target further and further out.  Other cruise lines arent doing that.  If I wait until 60 days after my cruise is to have sailed and they dont come through I will be outside of the time I can contest the charge with my CC company. 

 

I am happy to see you got your FCC and that they are at least issuing those now.  That gives me some hope. 

 

 

2 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

MSC going bankrupt?  Totally ridiculous...MSC is in better condition than the majors.  The big three are borrowing funds and accumulating debt.  When’s the last time you heard of MSC borrowing money?  Short answer: you haven’t and you won’t.

 

I doubt they will go bankrupt but can they shutter the passenger cruise division and if they do, how that is treated is my concern.  I dont know nearly enough about corporate law let alone international corporate law to know if this should be a serious concern.  But when a company keeps changing the story to their benefit it certainly makes me antsy that they may take all allowable liberties.

 

2 hours ago, cruiseguyinorl said:

 

Think you might have overlooked the email to TA's dated April 29th that advised of the extension of canceled cruises till July 10th. The part of the sentence in that letter that has everyone up in arms I put in italics.

 

Refunds will be issued the later of either 60 days after the original sail date or 60 days from the date the online form [requesting a refund] is completed.

 

I previously confirmed with them that if you request a refund today for a July 9th sailing for example, the refund would not be generated until 60 days from July 9 or September 9 to be exact. I can understand why folks would be upset about them keeping money for up to 4 months basically.   am

 

Just trying to help out @aprilF with her question.

Bret

Thanks, I do appreciate the information but I wonder how someone who isnt a TA and didnt use a TA is supposed to get this info.  Outside of that it just doesnt seem fair that they keep moving the target.  I understand this is a big cluster f--- but other cruise lines seems to have their act much more together than MSC.  It doesnt make me confident to trust them outside of the timeline where I could seek other means of satisfaction KWIM?

[PhotoFlo]

I have just copied this from their website, it still says 60 days from date of request.  I have also just been told 60 days from date of sailing.  Of course I emailed all of this back to them. 

 

All Caribbean cruises from Miami from March 14 - July 10 have been canceled.

 

If you booked your cruise through MSC Cruises USA office, guests have the following two options:

 

125% Future Cruise Credit—BEST CHOICE  
Receive a Future Cruise Credit for 125% of the original cruise fare paid (excl. government taxes & fees and prepaid items, which will be refunded to the original form of payment). The Future Cruise Credit can be used on any sailing departing on or before December 31, 2021. If unused, we will automatically provide a refund equal to the original cruise fare paid.

 

OR 
 
Request a Refund
We hope you choose to reschedule your cruise for a future date. However, we understand this may not be the ideal option for you. If you choose not to take the Future Cruise Credit, a refund will be issued 60 days from the date the refund is requested. 

 

 

[CGTNORMANDIE]

Hi AprilF,

 

MSC has the second largest container fleet in the world.  Those ships continue to sail and continue to make MSC billions.  MSC will have no problem navigating the coming months.  
 

I have it on good authority that MSC is currently considering every possible solution.  I predict that MSC ships will become the safest mode of transport at sea...safe from viruses...safe for all passengers.  We will be living in a time when land vacations will be dangerous and certain ships will offer a controlled atmosphere where all passengers will be tested before boarding and during sailing. Any passenger with an illness will be swiftly isolated and evacuated off the ship.  Crew members will be constantly tested.  It is possible that cruising on MSC will be safer than ever before and safer than staying home in an uncontrolled environment.  

Edited May 7, 2020 by CGTNORMANDIE

[TampaGambler]

21 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

MSC going bankrupt?  Totally ridiculous...MSC is in better condition than the majors.  The big three are borrowing funds and accumulating debt.  When’s the last time you heard of MSC borrowing money?  Short answer: you haven’t and you won’t.

 

MSC is a private company, so you have absolute no clue as to the status of their financing. When was the last time you heard a private company borrowing money or disclosing their finances? Short answer: You haven't and you wont.

[CGTNORMANDIE]

37 minutes ago, TampaGambler said:

 

MSC is a private company, so you have absolute no clue as to the status of their financing. When was the last time you heard a private company borrowing money or disclosing their finances? Short answer: You haven't and you wont.

Highly unlikely that a company that is making billions of dollars and euros in the freight business will need to borrow money.

 

 

[slei15]

2 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

Highly unlikely that a company that is making billions of dollars and euros in the freight business will need to borrow money.

 

 

MSC Cruises operates independently of the MSC Group Shipping Company.  They are a "bankruptcy remote" entity, and while the parent organization would have the ability to invest additional equity to stave off a bankruptcy, there is no obligation to, and no recourse if they don't.  Additionally, according to the annual report, MSC Cruises carries about $5B Euros of debt, with $3.5B being for the ship construction, and $1.5B being general corporate debt. So yes, they do use debt, and they will likely take on more if needed.

[sfaaa]

21 minutes ago, slei15 said:

MSC Cruises operates independently of the MSC Group Shipping Company.  They are a "bankruptcy remote" entity, and while the parent organization would have the ability to invest additional equity to stave off a bankruptcy, there is no obligation to, and no recourse if they don't.  Additionally, according to the annual report, MSC Cruises carries about $5B Euros of debt, with $3.5B being for the ship construction, and $1.5B being general corporate debt. So yes, they do use debt, and they will likely take on more if needed.

Why would MSC parent let its subsidiary to go under because of a temporary downturn in business outlook? Using financial  leverage to fund a business operation during low interest rate enviroment is  not only a sound business strategy, it is the preferred route to go both in term of achieving a higher return on investment and for tax deduction purpose.

Edited May 8, 2020 by sfaaa

[rkacruiser]

34 minutes ago, slei15 said:

Additionally, according to the annual report, MSC Cruises carries about $5B Euros of debt, with $3.5B being for the ship construction, and $1.5B being general corporate debt. So yes, they do use debt, and they will likely take on more if needed.

 

14 minutes ago, sfaaa said:

Using financial  leverage to fund a business operation during low interest rate enviroment is  not only a sound business strategy,

 

If my memory serves me correctly after reading CCL Annual Reports over the years (can't refer to them because I them away), there were years that the cash flow for CCL was sufficient that taking on more debt for new buildings really wasn't required.  Yet, they did to help operate their business.  

 

 

[CGTNORMANDIE]

In the real world the Aponte family are not about to let their 15 billion dollar cruise line go under.  Rafael and her husband are very involved with MSC Cruises.  They have the funds and the intention to protect their investment.  I would say they are in a much better position than the big three.  MSC Global Containers is currently making billions.  They have not shut down due to the a Corona Virus.  Keeping MSC Cruises afloat would require what the Apontes consider pocket change.  If NCL can stay afloat for one year on 1 billion dollars then MSC Is secure for years to come.

[SirWolf]

1 hour ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

In the real world the Aponte family are not about to let their 15 billion dollar cruise line go under.  Rafael and her husband are very involved with MSC Cruises.  They have the funds and the intention to protect their investment.  I would say they are in a much better position than the big three.  MSC Global Containers is currently making billions.  They have not shut down due to the a Corona Virus.  Keeping MSC Cruises afloat would require what the Apontes consider pocket change.  If NCL can stay afloat for one year on 1 billion dollars then MSC Is secure for years to come.

Well written !

It could be a opportunity for MSC Cruises to increase market shares if one of the major cruise lines are in trouble.

by the way.. the title of the thread is misleading as he implies news or information which are not presented by the OP , just “wild” speculations.

[BermudaBound2014]

2 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

In the real world the Aponte family are not about to let their 15 billion dollar cruise line go under.  

 

Bankruptcy is far from 'going under'.

 

I'm not implying anything about the financial status of MSC (or any cruise line), just reminding readers that even if a Cruise Line files for bankruptcy it doesn't mean they are going away. It is likely they will restructure debt and come out stronger; all the while leaving causalities in the wake. 

[rkacruiser]

3 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

if a Cruise Line files for bankruptcy it doesn't mean they are going away. It is likely they will restructure debt and come out stronger; all the while leaving causalities in the wake. 

 

True for all companies that file for bankruptcy with off shoots from the parent company.

 

My favorite Italian restaurant chain's parent company has filed for bankruptcy.  All of its restaurants are now closed; one local one already they have been said will be permanent.  The hope remains that the other facilities will be able to open.  Both of the these are located in shopping mall areas.  These malls will soon start to open.  That may be the impetus to open these very good restaurants as well.  

[TampaGambler]

16 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

In the real world the Aponte family are not about to let their 15 billion dollar cruise line go under.  Rafael and her husband are very involved with MSC Cruises.  They have the funds and the intention to protect their investment.  I would say they are in a much better position than the big three.  MSC Global Containers is currently making billions.  They have not shut down due to the a Corona Virus.  Keeping MSC Cruises afloat would require what the Apontes consider pocket change.  If NCL can stay afloat for one year on 1 billion dollars then MSC Is secure for years to come.

Yet, I find It incredibly strange that the “big 3” have been providing refunds to customers while “safe” MSC hasn’t refunded anyone? At least not according to cruise critic. 
 

Had customers of MSC been receiving refunds, my opinion my be different. However, as of the latest filing, they had 187 million in cash and over 5 billion of total debt. They would need to borrow money just to give refunds, which nobody has receives, so I don’t view that as they are fine.

[sidari]

At the end of the day this is all supposition, MSC are a closed book who give little to nothing away.

They are even secretive about dry docking of their ships.

[8420PR]

1 hour ago, TampaGambler said:

Had customers of MSC been receiving refunds, my opinion my be different. However, as of the latest filing, they had 187 million in cash and over 5 billion of total debt. They would need to borrow money just to give refunds, which nobody has receives, so I don’t view that as they are fine.

I think MSC's cash position is not particularly unusual or bad (pre-COVID19).  By comparison RCCL at the end of 2019 had USD $243 million in cash and USD $18.2 billion liabilities (with $11 billion revenue vs €3.2 billion revenue for MSC).

 

I expect the majority of MSC debt is from state export agencies (e.g. €1.5 billion from Italian SACE for 2 seaside class ships), so MSC are getting payment holidays (other cruise lines have reported this).  A quick google shows approx €50 million Ocean Cay debt is also guaranteed by SACE.

 

I am fairly confident MSC are not going bankrupt.

 

 

 

 

[shipgeeks]

2 hours ago, TampaGambler said:

Yet, I find It incredibly strange that the “big 3” have been providing refunds to customers while “safe” MSC hasn’t refunded anyone? At least not according to cruise critic. 
 

Had customers of MSC been receiving refunds, my opinion my be different. However, as of the latest filing, they had 187 million in cash and over 5 billion of total debt. They would need to borrow money just to give refunds, which nobody has receives, so I don’t view that as they are fine.

Are the other lines providing refunds?  Every board I see is filled with posts from people who are distressed that they haven't received anything, and doubt that they will.

[aprilF]

8 minutes ago, shipgeeks said:

Are the other lines providing refunds?  Every board I see is filled with posts from people who are distressed that they haven't received anything, and doubt that they will.

Yes, DCL has an average refund time of about 2 weeks, even though they are telling people 30 days. 

 

If MSC is so secure financially, why arent they providing refunds.  We are past the 60 days for some people and still no repayment.  Other lines are managing to repay in a quicker timeline which concerns me about MSC...that they keep moving the target date and that they are missing the target date for some so far).

[Cruiser Bruiser]

5 minutes ago, aprilF said:

Yes, DCL has an average refund time of about 2 weeks, even though they are telling people 30 days. 

 

If MSC is so secure financially, why arent they providing refunds.  We are past the 60 days for some people and still no repayment.  Other lines are managing to repay in a quicker timeline which concerns me about MSC...that they keep moving the target date and that they are missing the target date for some so far).

Disney is the exception, then. I can assure you that on the NCL and HAL boards, everyone is complaining about virtually no cash refunds and substantial delays in receiving them, if at all. This situation isn't unique to MSC at all.