The Muster Discussion

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

There is a real difference between a plane and a cruise ship. In case of an emergency the plane's passengers are already "herded". I'm sure during the real emergency everyone pays a lot more attention than during the pre takeoff emergency briefing.

 

For a cruise ship facing a similar situation, the crew must assure that the passengers get to where they have to be. That is what everyone seems to be ignoring; the drill is as much, actually even more, for the crew than the passengers.

I do not want to go down a rabbit hole, so this will be my last post.  I agree on the difference between a plane and cruise ship, just using it as an example.  For the record, the crew does muster drills at every single cruise, sometimes more than one.  There are examples of near abandon of ships (even one where the ship foundered, the Concordia) and even in these, from what I read, there was not out of control situations.  From my perspective, having the ability view and sign off on that they viewed the muster drill on line, and add to it the need to go to the muster station so they know where it is, will work.  That said, all views Count the same.

[sanger727]

On 7/30/2020 at 8:37 PM, bafinegan said:

I have never been in an "abandon ship" emergency at sea ( thank god) but I have been involved in codes at hospitals.  One hospital where I worked had "mock codes" once a month.  Plus night shift had to open the crash cart once a week to physically inventory the contents ( meds, equipment, etc)  ANd guess what?  During actual codes I could lay my hands on stuff without thinking about it.  I was also much calmer because i had "been there, done that" so many times in practice codes.  So yes, IMHO, those drills do help.

 

baf

yes, but you did the drills multiple times and in a work setting where you knew and understood the value of the training. Compared to doing the drill one time when on vacation. Even if you do cruise multiple times, on every ship your muster location is different and the layout is a bit difference so you aren’t building the memory.

 

we have to be certified in CPR at work. We go through the training every two years. First time I went through the training I had zero confidence I knew what to do in real life. While I’ve still never done CPR, after 6 repetitions of the training combined with a bit of real life emergency experience I feel much more confident in my ability to do it if needed. But we don’t get 5-6 musters on a ship to build abilities. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by sanger727

[bafinegan]

19 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

yes, but you did the drills multiple times and in a work setting where you knew and understood the value of the training. Compared to doing the drill one time when on vacation. Even if you do cruise multiple times, on every ship your muster location is different and the layout is a bit difference so you aren’t building the memory.

 

we have to be certified in CPR at work. We go through the training every two years. First time I went through the training I had zero confidence I knew what to do in real life. While I’ve still never done CPR, after 6 repetitions of the training combined with a bit of real life emergency experience I feel much more confident in my ability to do it if needed. But we don’t get 5-6 musters on a ship to build abilities. 

That was my point dear.  SOme want to do away with th muster drills.  I feel they are necessary.  Just not sure what form they will now take.

baf

[chengkp75]

On 7/30/2020 at 3:30 PM, BalzacBill said:

The cruisers and cruise lines can propose all sorts of new muster ideas, but until the US Coast Guard signs off on the new procedure, it can't be implemented. Here is reference to the USCG regulations:

 

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/DCO Documents/5p/CG-5PC/CG-CVC/Guidance/CGTTP_3-72.2B_Foreign Passenger_Vessel_Exam.pdf

 

Page 67 Item 7.9

Uh, no.  The USCG has no jurisdiction to approve or determine the emergency procedures for a foreign flag ship.  The USCG can only ensure that any IMO regulations like SOLAS are followed.  Therefore, it is up to the IMO, the flag state of the ship, and the class societies to approve any new muster format.  Apparently, the RCI/NCL system is approved by the IMO and their flag states, though they have had USCG as part of the "design" team for their input as maritime safety experts.  You will note that in the Guidance for PSCO (port state control officers, and for foreign flag ships, USCG is only a port state control agency), that they reference SOLAS, STCW, and MARPOL, which are international IMO conventions, and not any CFR or USC sections, which are US laws.

[chengkp75]

On 7/29/2020 at 1:48 PM, jetsfan58 said:

A few assumptions here and a few more added steps but at least our vacations will not be interrupted once we board!! 

And, God forbid your vacation should be interrupted for safety reasons!

[pe4all]

chengkp75 -

 I was hoping you would jump onto this thread, as you always add a rational, intelligent and correct answer to information posted. Thank you.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, pe4all said:

chengkp75 -

 I was hoping you would jump onto this thread, as you always add a rational, intelligent and correct answer to information posted. Thank you.

I'm on a couple of other threads on other forums, and a bit tired of putting the same thing out multiple times, but finally relented on this one.  I am frankly amazed, as are other maritime professionals on CC, that this has been apparently approved by the IMO and class for routine usage and not just as a covid mediation measure (i.e. temporary), and am worried and a little appalled at the entire process.  I see this as being an even greater source of non-compliance with the muster drill by passengers, and hope that there is compliance reporting software that ensures that the ship actually makes everyone comply before sailing, and I hope that the class societies monitor this on a regular basis (and hopefully Port State Control, like the USCG) to ensure it is being fully complied with, and to determine whether or not it is actually meeting safety requirements, since it was on a very limited "roll out" and didn't produce a significant sample size.  I see a degradation in crew competency in handling crowds and crises, as the passenger muster drill was the only time they had real life exposure to "herding cats" and actually confused, and potentially rude, obnoxious, and arrogantly defiant passengers (yes, I've seen all of those).

 

I hope that some actual situations where the passengers are called to muster in an emergency, after receiving only this "saunter through" instruction, proves me wrong, but I foresee even more chaos and confusion based on this "drill" in an actual emergency.  It is important to note that at least three times in the RCI press release about this new muster drill that the term "uninterrupted vacation" is used to describe it.  This is the feeling I get, that they want to do away with something that deals with a situation that may never happen, and that is unpopular with the passengers.  I remember another ship and another passenger line that decided to not plan for the worst possible scenario, with disastrous results (Titanic).  I think this is taking the passengers' safety back a significant step, but I realize I am nearly alone in this assessment here.

[PhillyFan33579]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I'm on a couple of other threads on other forums, and a bit tired of putting the same thing out multiple times, but finally relented on this one.  I am frankly amazed, as are other maritime professionals on CC, that this has been apparently approved by the IMO and class for routine usage and not just as a covid mediation measure (i.e. temporary), and am worried and a little appalled at the entire process.  I see this as being an even greater source of non-compliance with the muster drill by passengers, and hope that there is compliance reporting software that ensures that the ship actually makes everyone comply before sailing, and I hope that the class societies monitor this on a regular basis (and hopefully Port State Control, like the USCG) to ensure it is being fully complied with, and to determine whether or not it is actually meeting safety requirements, since it was on a very limited "roll out" and didn't produce a significant sample size.  I see a degradation in crew competency in handling crowds and crises, as the passenger muster drill was the only time they had real life exposure to "herding cats" and actually confused, and potentially rude, obnoxious, and arrogantly defiant passengers (yes, I've seen all of those).

 

I hope that some actual situations where the passengers are called to muster in an emergency, after receiving only this "saunter through" instruction, proves me wrong, but I foresee even more chaos and confusion based on this "drill" in an actual emergency.  It is important to note that at least three times in the RCI press release about this new muster drill that the term "uninterrupted vacation" is used to describe it.  This is the feeling I get, that they want to do away with something that deals with a situation that may never happen, and that is unpopular with the passengers.  I remember another ship and another passenger line that decided to not plan for the worst possible scenario, with disastrous results (Titanic).  I think this is taking the passengers' safety back a significant step, but I realize I am nearly alone in this assessment here.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t Costa Concordia be another example of a disastrous result when a full muster drill was not completed prior to the eventual partial sinking?  

Edited August 1, 2020 by PhillyFan33579

[ontheweb]

28 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t Costa Concordia be another example of a disastrous result when a full muster drill was not completed prior to the eventual partial sinking?  

Yes, the captain may have been more at fault, but not having the muster drill scheduled until after the sailing had embarked could not have helped. If I am not mistaken, the requirement for the drill to be before sailing was enacted soon after that.

[chengkp75]

47 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t Costa Concordia be another example of a disastrous result when a full muster drill was not completed prior to the eventual partial sinking?  

The problem on the Concordia was not that the muster drill had not been held (and due to interporting, some passengers had done the drill, if I remember right), but that Schettino would not signal for the passengers to muster, and so the crew, on the directions from the Command Team, were sending people away from the muster stations, as they should have, based on their orders.  Schettino knew within 10 minutes of striking the rock that enough watertight compartments were flooding such that there was no force on God's Earth that was going to keep the ship afloat, though he should have signaled for muster as soon as flooding was reported, but he refused to signal for passenger muster at all, at any time.  What he did do was 45 minutes after striking the rock, and shortly before the final grounding, was announce "abandon ship", which releases crew from their emergency stations to go to their evacuation stations.  Even if passengers are instructed to board the boats and evacuate, the vast majority of the crew remain at their emergency stations until all passengers are away.

 

Had Schettino signaled for muster as soon as flooding was reported, there would have been sufficient time, and sufficient crew available (not still serving dinner) to get even passenger who had no idea where their muster station was, to the station, and get everyone accounted for.  Then, since the ship did not heel over more than 10* either way, until it finally grounded on Giglio, once the flooding of 3 or more compartments was reported, all the boats and most of the crew in rafts could have been launched in a relatively orderly fashion.

 

The entirety of the blame for the lives lost on the Concordia lies with Schettino, because if he had acted properly as outlined in the company's ISM code, there would almost certainly been no loss of life.

[sanger727]

5 hours ago, bafinegan said:

That was my point dear.  SOme want to do away with th muster drills.  I feel they are necessary.  Just not sure what form they will now take.

baf

but there’s a large difference between a 1 time drill and several drills to repeat the same information

[Linsuesue]

I am so impressed with the the amount of respectful discourse on this thread! Experienced cruisers have brought up many facets of problems to consider. Here is my problem with the current muster drills: my spouse is hard of hearing. Once you, or a loved one, uses hearing aids, you notice that many other people use them too. This issue is predominantly age related, but not always. Accents from ship crew members delivering information at the muster drills can be problematic. Not all short people, kids, those who are hard of hearing, ... can be in the front row. You are lined up according to when you step up to the muster station. People talking around us, tall people in front of us, and never being able to see who is talking doesn’t work well for many. Now, will the staff have to be wearing masks when they deliver the muster drill speech? That would add a layer of confusion. Hard of hearing or not, we all rely on visual information provided by a speaker’s face. I don’t think we are alone in feeling  the current system is not an effective system for information delivery. I propose that there should be another area of check in at the port that shows the muster drill video. Part of the check in process should require the watching of the video. It could also be a constant loop on the video screens in the cruise terminal. Everyone in the waiting area is already a captive audience and will have been exposed to the videos before stepping on the ship. Once onboard, check in at your muster station and get your card swiped. Any one not checked in at muster stations by sailaway will have names constantly announced before the ship leaves- kind of like the no shows who are late to check in before leaving a port. Crews still have the chance to practice directing people to certain areas, insure they line up in single file, wait their turn, get help from crew members, give directions..at every port stop-especially tender ports. I definitely agree with the post that said in the event of an actual emergency, the passengers responses will be much different for the crew to handle than the current drills. 

[jetsfan58]

My main concern still is that Carnival take their time and please get this portion right. I am all for the continued safety of all passengers and crew. There are so many avenues to ponder. As of yet, I have not heard about this scenario:

 

Those of you that frequent the "Liquor Tasting" tables will know more about this area than me. Again God forbid, but what happens in the case of a true Muster situation and about one third of the passengers (those that are attending the tasting event and may be pretty well "saturated" when the "Big" whistle blows)? My rationale for inputting this segment into the equation is to spell out the serious need for "maximum" training for all crew (including possible refreshers for Captains). You know when you involve a "surplus" of Spirits into an already "anxious" situation the outcome may not be delightful??      

 

Thoughts? Just covering all potential bases with this Muster Discussion.