Everything... project Leonardo/Prima class!

[Wendy&Grumpy]

2 hours ago, Steff79 said:

No, I meant not the place over the bridge what belongs to the spa. 
i mean the front area at the top deck at the front at the ship. At all renderings there were a grey place.  So it is not clear if it is a public sundeck  or something special. 

 

Ah, I didn't even see the people up there! It doesn't look like a big enough open area to be a sundeck. I'm gonna guess it's a walk through at best. Maybe we'll see soon?! 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Wendy&Grumpy

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, BenCoudon said:

Beginning of sea trials:  Does this mean that Ficantieri is done with the construction of the ship?

Well, the construction, yes, but the yard still owns the ship.  Once sea trials are over, if the ship passed all tests and inspections, then when the ship returns to port, NCL will pay for the ship and then own it.  But, if anything is not right during sea trials, then Fincantieri must fix it, and possibly trial it again, before NCL makes the final payment.

[BenCoudon]

It looks like the navigation officer driving the Prima is having fun

Maybe  he believes he is driving a speed boat  🙂

 

I guess its all part of the test plan

 

[AmazedByCruising]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

But, if anything is not right during sea trials, then Fincantieri must fix it, and possibly trial it again, before NCL makes the final payment.

 

Are there strict rules for this,? I mean, NCL might want to decide they don't really want the ship (because a new variant showed up) so they say "nah, the steering doesn't really feel like I wanted it".

 

Are sea trials written down like "Test 4. The ship must reach at least 25 knots in calm seas without any hick up in hotel power during 5 hours". "Test 5. if we make a 90 degrees turn within 3 minutes at 20 knots, you chose the Master, the list must be less than 5 degrees at least 2 out of three tries"? 

 

What happens if a test does fail, and Fincantieri can't fix the problem with more ballast or better software?  Maybe people at NCL and Fincantieri were all too positive about a crane lifting an ice rink above the ship, and it turned out to be not such a good idea after all. Would NCL just get a rebate after a long dicussion?

[hallux]

@AmazedByCruising our resident (retired) engineer that spent time in the cruise industry may be able to answer those questions.  @chengkp75 any insight?

 

My opinion - design and engineering being what it is today I doubt the ship will fail to reach the milestones required by the cruise line.  Also remember that this is not REALLY a "first of its kind" ship - this is based on a design program by Fincanteri that other lines have bought as well and are already sailing.

Edited June 19, 2022 by hallux

[Steff79]

at 1:57 starts the new part

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Steff79

[Karaboudjan]

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Are there strict rules for this,? I mean, NCL might want to decide they don't really want the ship (because a new variant showed up) so they say "nah, the steering doesn't really feel like I wanted it".

 

Are sea trials written down like "Test 4. The ship must reach at least 25 knots in calm seas without any hick up in hotel power during 5 hours". "Test 5. if we make a 90 degrees turn within 3 minutes at 20 knots, you chose the Master, the list must be less than 5 degrees at least 2 out of three tries"? 

 

What happens if a test does fail, and Fincantieri can't fix the problem with more ballast or better software?  Maybe people at NCL and Fincantieri were all too positive about a crane lifting an ice rink above the ship, and it turned out to be not such a good idea after all. Would NCL just get a rebate after a long dicussion?

 

I'm sure that specifications are well defined in the contract and there are penalty clauses if the ship fails to meet the specs and Fincantieri is unable to remedy something.  

 

 

[AmazedByCruising]

2 hours ago, Karaboudjan said:

I'm sure that specifications are well defined in the contract and there are penalty clauses if the ship fails to meet the specs and Fincantieri is unable to remedy something.  

 

I'm less sure than you but we need a Chief 🙂

For instance, the ships with a crane on top of it, it could simply not work as designed. If it's useful to have a test drive, there must be things that can be fixed. There's a limit to that. "Oh ok, you don't want the listing. We can fix that by putting loads of ballast in MDR". What if there's no simple remedy and the ship is useless? The penalties would be the worth of the ship and a few years of revenue, not even  Fincantieri can pay that.

[steamboats]

10 hours ago, BenCoudon said:

Beginning of sea trials:  Does this mean that Ficantieri is done with the construction of the ship?

 

Depends on what you mean by "construction". The ship is finished as far as it regards the technical part. So it can sail and now all technical stuff is tested and more. But it doesn´t mean that all interior work is finished. It´s pretty likely that there´s still a lot of work going on in all public venues and cabins.

 

steamboats

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Are there strict rules for this,? I mean, NCL might want to decide they don't really want the ship (because a new variant showed up) so they say "nah, the steering doesn't really feel like I wanted it".

 

Are sea trials written down like "Test 4. The ship must reach at least 25 knots in calm seas without any hick up in hotel power during 5 hours". "Test 5. if we make a 90 degrees turn within 3 minutes at 20 knots, you chose the Master, the list must be less than 5 degrees at least 2 out of three tries"? 

 

What happens if a test does fail, and Fincantieri can't fix the problem with more ballast or better software?  Maybe people at NCL and Fincantieri were all too positive about a crane lifting an ice rink above the ship, and it turned out to be not such a good idea after all. Would NCL just get a rebate after a long dicussion?

I should be called "Amazed by Amazed", because you always seem to come up with the most off the wall questions.  Anyway.  First off, about 80% of the ship's construction cost has already been paid to the yard, as various construction milestones are reached (contract let, keel laid, float out, etc), so if NCL backed out at this point, they are already out serious money, and there are penalty clauses for cancellation at the various milestones, getting higher as each is reached.

 

While there are performance tests, like speed runs, emergency stops, hard turns, etc, there really aren't any hard and fast requirements for things like this (though there are some statutory requirements), just that data is gathered so the owner knows how the ship operates.  If the ship really failed miserably in something like this, there could be an adjustment negotiation on the final price, but remember, NCL agreed to the design in the first place, and in their due diligence would have had their own Naval Architects review the design.

 

During sea trials, while NCL will have senior deck and engine officers onboard to observe the tests, and some hotel supervisors to observe if the hotel equipment works, the shipyard provides the actual crew that operates the ship, as they still own it.

 

For things like a "crane to lift an ice rink", first off, the decision to have that is NCL's, not Fincantieri's, and the supplier of that equipment would be chosen by NCL not Fincantieri, so any failure to perform would fall on NCL's responsibility.  Fincantieri would only be liable if it collapsed due to their installation, or if they damaged it during installation.

 

The QM2 with her 4 azipods (two steerable, two fixed), was found to have such poor lateral course stability (the ability to keep to a straight course) in following seas, that she had to go back to drydock after sea trials, and a "skeg" or keel extension was installed between the two fixed azipods to fix this.  The cost was on Cunard, as it was their design in the first place.

[Cruisercl]

I watched the u tube video, she looks beautiful!

I am wondering about the artwork on the hull.

Is is a specific artist or is it NCL art?

I don't think I have seen this info yet.

Thanks...stay safe all. 😎

[Wendy&Grumpy]

17 minutes ago, Cruisercl said:

I watched the u tube video, she looks beautiful!

I am wondering about the artwork on the hull.

Is is a specific artist or is it NCL art?

I don't think I have seen this info yet.

Thanks...stay safe all. 😎

 

It's created by Peeta.

https://nft.ncl.com/token/norwegianprimahullart/all

 

[Steff79]

i like the house art from him,

i think the 3d pop up works here better but we will see

https://designyoutrust.com/2019/07/street-artist-peeta-recently-created-this-optical-illusion-house-for-the-street-art-festival/

[BenCoudon]

I am sure that they have corporate lawyers on both sides and there are conditions and penalties on both sides.  But, above all, there is love.  Frank DelRio proposed Ficantieri in 2015.  The wedding papers were signed a year or two later.  NCLH is a top player in the cruise industry. Ficantieri is a top player in the business of cruiseships.  And the wedding is huge.  How often a cruiseline orders 9 ships from a shipyard? (NCL 6 ships, Oceania 2 ships and Regent 1 ship)

The Prima is the first one.  8 more to come. 2 others are less than a year away from complition (NCL VIVA and Oceania Vista) And I am sure that work has already started for the 3rd NCL ship. Those 2 partners are still in the honeymoon phase. What ever the legal papers are saying, the 2 CEOs have interest to compromise.  Ficantieri cannot be blame for all the problems and spin-offs of the pandemia, the Ukrane war and the world wide supply chain issues.

NCLH has no interest to impose huge penalties to Ficantieri.  This would bitter their relationship for the remaining terms of the contract.  Same thing for the shipyard.  They have already invested a huge amount of money to plan the work, acquire material and equipment for this huge contract. 

 

NCL already had a divorce with the French shipyard in St-Nazaire following the build of the NCL EPIC.

Then, for what ever reasons, they did not renew their vows with Meyer Werft from Germany that built the previous bunch of ships for NCL.  There are only 5 or 6 shipyards in the world that are able to build vessels of that size.  And some of them are building only cargo ships.  So a divorce between NCL and Ficantieri would not benefit both sides.  As we see, the deal for the Prima was signed in 2015 and the ship will only be relased 7 years later.  No one can imagine NCLH cancelling the remaning 6 ships contract and go at the end of the line with Meyer Werft or even condidering goint back to St-Nazaire

 

I am sure the legal paper contain penalties and cancellation clauses.  But, given the situation, compromise are reached by FDR and his conterpart at Ficantieri.  And neither of them are interested to pay the price of a nasty divorce.

[hallux]

24 minutes ago, BenCoudon said:

Then, for what ever reasons, they did not renew their vows with Meyer Werft from Germany that built the previous bunch of ships for NCL.  There are only 5 or 6 shipyards in the world that are able to build vessels of that size.  And some of them are building only cargo ships.  So a divorce between NCL and Ficantieri would not benefit both sides.  As we see, the deal for the Prima was signed in 2015 and the ship will only be relased 7 years later.  No one can imagine NCLH cancelling the remaning 6 ships contract and go at the end of the line with Meyer Werft or even condidering goint back to St-Nazaire

 

I believe the Prima class is built on Fincantieri's 'Project Mille' design.  It's likely Meyer just didn't have a design concept that NCL wanted to go with for this class so they didn't get the contract (Fincantieri wouldn't allow NCL to take the design concept and have another yard build it).  I doubt it was a "divorce", it was just that there wasn't the design they wanted.  Look at RCI - they had ships in progress with both Meyer AND St. Nazaire (Quantum class at Meyer, Oasis class at St. Nazaire).

[Steff79]

21,5 kn has the Prima made this afternoon,

next try at the moment, 22,4 kn

Edited June 19, 2022 by Steff79

[BenCoudon]

48 minutes ago, hallux said:

 

I believe the Prima class is built on Fincantieri's 'Project Mille' design.  It's likely Meyer just didn't have a design concept that NCL wanted to go with for this class so they didn't get the contract (Fincantieri wouldn't allow NCL to take the design concept and have another yard build it).  I doubt it was a "divorce", it was just that there wasn't the design they wanted.  Look at RCI - they had ships in progress with both Meyer AND St. Nazaire (Quantum class at Meyer, Oasis class at St. Nazaire).

I didn't talk about a divorce with Meyer.  I said they decided to deal with a different shipyard. Your explanation sounds right.  No one knows what will happen after the 9 ships are delivered. My point is that those decisions were made 8 years ago and should they decide to cancel the remaining ships with Ficantieri,  delivery of new ships would be delayed until 2030. As for St-Nazaire, they had a contract for several other ships similar to the Epic.  And they cancelled the order.  I doubt that they would deal with the French in a forseeable future.  And I am happy with that because, in my very own opinion, the EPIC is the worst ship of the NCL Fleet. Very bad design.  I did 2 cruises on the Epic, one is a mini-suite and one in the Haven.  Just one example:  To go to La Cucinna restaurant, you have to cross the garden cafe all the way to the back (make your way through lots of people) then take the stairs 1 deck down.  If someone in a wheelchair wants to go to that restaurant, one person has to go to the restaurant and request the opening of an  emergency exit door located at the end of row of cabins. For the Haven, to build the toilet almost in the middle of the cabin with only frosted glass to enclose it is more than questionable.  Let alone that you almost need a steplader to climb into the bathtub.   

[steamboats]

4 hours ago, BenCoudon said:

And the wedding is huge.  How often a cruiseline orders 9 ships from a shipyard? (NCL 6 ships, Oceania 2 ships and Regent 1 ship)

 

Hmm, not sure whether the wedding with NCLH or with MSC is bigger ;-).

 

steamboats

[FreestyleNovice]

Nice updates all! I’m kind of off grid on an island that has a particular port of call for Prima, not on courtesy of NCL though!  Keep the good news coming!

[AmazedByCruising]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I should be called "Amazed by Amazed", because you always seem to come up with the most off the wall questions. 

 

After googling "off the wall questions" I should maybe take that as a compliment 🙂

 

Result is that I know to a decent level of detail how contracting, payments, responsibilities, and testing works. And that features like cranes are just installed but not made by the ship builder. Thank you once again for meticulously answering my weird questions after 8 years or so!

 

I'm really surprised that Cunard doesn't only design the restaurant but also the ship itself. I expected  they'd sent specs to the yard (this much space here, so many rooms, that speed, such stability, two big pools on top, etc) and that the yard would come up with a plan, specifying where to put how much ballast to make it a nice ship for TA cruises. Not that Cunard knows how to sell cruises, but also needs to have its own people thinking about the intricacies of bulbous bows.  

 

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

I'm really surprised that Cunard doesn't only design the restaurant but also the ship itself. I expected  they'd sent specs to the yard (this much space here, so many rooms, that speed, such stability, two big pools on top, etc) and that the yard would come up with a plan, specifying where to put how much ballast to make it a nice ship for TA cruises. Not that Cunard knows how to sell cruises, but also needs to have its own people thinking about the intricacies of bulbous bows.  

In most cases, a cruise line will collaborate with a shipyard to come up with a design for a class of ship, based on the cruise line's desires for capacity, etc, and Naval Architects from both sides will work on the final design.  Not sure why you seem to fixate on ballast, as most cruise ships carry a very minimum amount of ballast.  Ballast is only used to counteract a large change in "deadweight" (or the amount of fuel, water, and cargo carried), and unlike a tanker or freighter, the "cargo" on a cruise ship does not vary by a great deal, and it costs money (fuel) to carry salt water around.

 

The QM was more of a "one off" design, so Cunard's architects were more involved in the design than most ships.  Her ability to handle North Atlantic weather that so many go on about, is more due to the hull design than ballast carrying.  A square barge carrying a large amount of ballast would do worse than a well designed hull with minimum weight.  Things like length/beam ratio, block coefficient, bow flare, stern shape, and of course GM (the measure of intact stability, which is derived from the locations of both the center of gravity and center of buoyancy), as well as deck height, etc, etc, will determine how a ship handles seas.

 

A cruise line will always have a "new build" department, and while this will include designers for the hotel functions, it will also have Naval Architects since they can say at the very beginning, whether a hotel idea is a reality or fantasy.  These NA's also deal with modifications, repairs, surveys, etc, during the life of the ships.  They are very much a part of the "technical" side of any cruise line.

[BenCoudon]

2 hours ago, steamboats said:

 

Hmm, not sure whether the wedding with NCLH or with MSC is bigger ;-).

 

steamboats

Italians are allowed to have both a wife and a mistress  LOL

I don't know how many ships MSC has ships on order with Fincanteri.  Do you have the number?

I know for some of the recent ships, that the MSC Meraviglia and Bellissima were built at St-Nazaire.  I think the seaview and seaside were built by Fincanteri. 

[BenCoudon]

6 hours ago, Steff79 said:

21,5 kn has the Prima made this afternoon,

next try at the moment, 22,4 kn

It looks like she is sailing back to the shipyard

Leaving for sea trials early Saturday and returning late Sunday is a good way to do trials with the ship back for the workers to continue work on Monday

Edited June 19, 2022 by BenCoudon

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, BenCoudon said:

It looks like she is sailing back to the shipyard

Leaving for sea trials early Saturday and returning late Sunday is a good way to do trials with the ship back for the workers to continue work on Monday

Quite a few of the shipyard workers were on the ship during trials, to fix anything they needed to, and could do right away, and in case things went sideways.  I'd be a bit surprised if trials are done this quickly, they may just need a different set of environmental conditions, and are killing some time.  If you look at Marinetraffic, you'll note that the ship is listed as being Italian registry, showing that the shipyard still owns it.

[chengkp75]

As I thought, she is headed back south.