Air filtration improvements?

[DoggyDaddy]

We would like to cruise again but will not until we are convinced that the air filtration systems have improved enough to significantly reduce the possibility of getting the COViID! I have heard that the cruise lines are working on it, but have not heard any specifics. For example, will the air flow to the cabins be of a HEPA standard and how often would they be changed? How would the airflow to the rest of the ship be handled?  Will the new Rotterdam be any better than the refurbished ships?

 

DD

[CruiserBruce]

Do a quick search. You will find many discussions on the related topics. Cabins are not a problem. Other parts of the ship could be.

 

Do you require the same HEPA standards in restaurants, theatres, stores, etc, that are similar land based facilities?

[DoggyDaddy]

I would like the same HEPA standards widespread, but that would be fanciful. I did look around but didn’t see much specifically about COVID filtering. Would electrostatic filtering be effective against viruses. Again, haven’t seen anything.

 

DD

[AtlantaCruiser72]

If you are expecting universal HEPA filtration start enjoying life lived solely at home. Not happening, and according to many health experts not needed  

 

not happening on ships

not happening in hotels

not happening on aircraft

not happening at retail stores

not happening at restaraunts

ya get me point!

 

many hospitals don’t even have that level of air filtration through the entire facility. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by AtlantaCruiser72

[chengkp75]

39 minutes ago, DoggyDaddy said:

I would like the same HEPA standards widespread, but that would be fanciful. I did look around but didn’t see much specifically about COVID filtering. Would electrostatic filtering be effective against viruses. Again, haven’t seen anything.

 

DD

There are some lines that are installing HEPA filters, but without any supporting data, this is mainly a case of "let's do something that sounds like it will help".  There is no data that covid can travel through an HVAC system, and return to a space in a viable condition.  There is no data that there is even a significant viral load at the filter inlet of existing HVAC systems, that would show a need for HEPA filtration.  All of the discussion regarding airborne transmission of the virus deal with the airflow currents within the room, that cause greater transmission ranges.  No instance, even the Diamond Princess, have any infectious disease agency stated that covid can be transmitted through an HVAC system.

[chengkp75]

41 minutes ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

If you are expecting universal HEPA filtration start enjoying life lived solely at home. Not happening, and according to many health experts not needed  

 

not happening on ships

not happening in hotels

not happening on aircraft

not happening at retail stores

not happening at restaraunts

ya get me point!

 

many hospitals don’t even have that level of air filtration through the entire facility. 

Actually, a lot of aircraft, perhaps most, have a HEPA grade air filter already installed.

[john2003]

Yes but the total enclosed air volume on a plane is tiny compared to a ship. 

[ksmaxey]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, a lot of aircraft, perhaps most, have a HEPA grade air filter already installed.

 

My father worked in the airline industry.  After the ban of smoking in flight, the airlines took advantage to greatly reduce the new air introduced into the aircraft in flight and instead recirculated air as it was a cost cutting move.  The HEPA filters help but I wonder if they will increase the fresh air being used in flight.

[HappyInVan]

19 hours ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

If you are expecting universal HEPA filtration start enjoying life lived solely at home. Not happening, and according to many health experts not needed... 

 

not happening on aircraft

 

 

Actually, here's an interesting aspect of aircraft travel. Many alerts about infected passengers on commercial aircraft. But no confirmed reports of passenger-passenger transmission. Looks like the HEPA filters, plus increased flow of external air, and the universal use of masks have created a safe environment.

[bennybear]

28 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Actually, here's an interesting aspect of aircraft travel. Many alerts about infected passengers on commercial aircraft. But no confirmed reports of passenger-passenger transmission. Looks like the HEPA filters, plus increased flow of external air, and the universal use of masks have created a safe environment.

 

That would be great news.  Do you have a source?

[HappyInVan]

Sorry. Duplicate.

Edited August 24, 2020 by HappyInVan

[HappyInVan]

5 hours ago, bennybear said:

 

That would be great news.  Do you have a source?

 

Heard it on a TV news clip from one of the public health officers.

 

The problem is that the scientists have not been able to find clusters on the aircraft seating plan, particularly since masks became mandatory. No superspreader events.

 

Possibly, infections have occurred in the departure lounge or at disembarkation.

 

I'll be flying to Toronto in September. I'll wear a KN95 mask all the way from home to the hotel. Also, goggles on the flight.

 

Wear a disposable 3-layer mask in public in Toronto. Possibly even in the hotel room if I am dissatisfied with the hygiene.

 

“In one case, about 328 passengers and crew members were tested for coronavirus after it was learned that a March 31 flight from the US to Taiwan had been carrying 12 passengers who were symptomatic at the time. However, all the other passengers tested negative, as did the crew members.”

 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/odds-catching-covid-19-flight-wellness-scn/index.html

 

“While the minister downplayed concerns about catching COVID-19 on a plane, at least two infectious disease experts told Global News the risks are enough that they won’t be getting on a plane for non-essential travel anytime soon...

 

Belcea said Transport Canada is in regular contact with the Public Health Agency of Canada, which is monitoring for reports of verified passenger-to-passenger transmission. As of Aug. 14 there had been no such reports, she said.”

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/7288950/marc-garneau-aviation-safety-coronavirus/

 

 

 

[bennybear]

Thanks!  Sounds promising!  

[ew101]

There is new data suggesting low humidity enhances COVID-19 virus transmission.  Another article from WEBMD suggested smaller droplets in dry conditions could pass thru mask filtration more readily.  One suggestion (this will be unpopular) is to increase humidity in shipboard common areas.  This might be a (not expensive) adjustment of shipboard HVAC controls.  I am hearing the voice of ChengKP in my head "yes but there will be condensation" but he will no doubt have real facts here.      

 

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2020/10/25/dry-air-indoors-will-increase-transmission-of-covid-19-as-winter-approaches/?sh=7c89c861720e

Edited November 10, 2020 by ew101

[zelker]

If I'm not mistaken, even if they installed HEPA filters in staterooms, doors leading to halls do not go clear to the floor and there are usually (always?) slats for ventilation in those same doors.  

 

As for airplane transmission, it appears it is NOT out of the question:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2020/10/27/59-covid-19-cases-linked-to-one-7-hour-flight-to-ireland-per-study/?sh=4b33adf25ea1

[KirkNC]

Interesting, of course how does one know if any of those involved picked up the virus in the airport or hotel the night before.  It would appear likely that some picked it up on the flight regardless.  
 

I would think if transmission on flights was a big problem we would have more examples.

[Mary229]

Anything they would do would be an improvement and I seem to recall CDC was requiring air quality improvements.  I do hope they have HEPA filtration. On an airplane I can wear a N95 mask for the duration.  I am hoping even after a vaccine it is acceptable to wear a mask on a flight.  We just sit too close to other people on airplanes, if your neighbor is ill no Hepa filter is going to help but a mask might

[ew101]

2 hours ago, zelker said:

If I'm not mistaken, even if they installed HEPA filters in staterooms, doors leading to halls do not go clear to the floor and there are usually (always?) slats for ventilation in those same doors.  

 

As for airplane transmission, it appears it is NOT out of the question:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2020/10/27/59-covid-19-cases-linked-to-one-7-hour-flight-to-ireland-per-study/?sh=4b33adf25ea1

Cruise ship staterooms always get fresh outside air and the air flows into the hallways.   In common areas, air is normally recirculated ~70%.    

 

That Ireland flight seems to have been before the very strict mask wearing protocol was enforced on aircraft.      "Nine of the 13 infected airline passengers had worn face masks. One child had not worn a mask, while it was “unknown” whether the remaining three passengers wore face coverings."    

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/covid-19-transmission-on-flights-extremely-rare-dr-tam-says/ar-BB1aT9Ph

 

[Sue from Canada]

On 8/24/2020 at 7:08 AM, ksmaxey said:

 

My father worked in the airline industry.  After the ban of smoking in flight, the airlines took advantage to greatly reduce the new air introduced into the aircraft in flight and instead recirculated air as it was a cost cutting move.  The HEPA filters help but I wonder if they will increase the fresh air being used in flight.

Well, instead of wearing cloth masks for the whole flight let us wear the oxygen masks

[chengkp75]

16 hours ago, ew101 said:

There is new data suggesting low humidity enhances COVID-19 virus transmission.  Another article from WEBMD suggested smaller droplets in dry conditions could pass thru mask filtration more readily.  One suggestion (this will be unpopular) is to increase humidity in shipboard common areas.  This might be a (not expensive) adjustment of shipboard HVAC controls.  I am hearing the voice of ChengKP in my head "yes but there will be condensation" but he will no doubt have real facts here.      

 

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2020/10/25/dry-air-indoors-will-increase-transmission-of-covid-19-as-winter-approaches/?sh=7c89c861720e

Yes, but the study shows the increase in transmission happens at 20% relative humidity, and given that cruises almost universally spend their time in temperate climates (there are, of course, some expedition cruises that stay in cold climates), the relative humidity stays in the 40-50% range.  In order to drop the humidity further, you need to cool the air more, and then reheat it to provide a suitable delivery air temperature, and this costs energy, and money.

 

The 20% humidity is more common where the outside air source is already very cold, and hence dry air, and then the building recirculates the vast majority of the air repeatedly, in a forced hot air heating system, or no circulation at all in a forced hot water system.

Edited November 11, 2020 by chengkp75

[ew101]

Many thanks Chengkp75 as always.  So we are generally in good shape in terms of onboard indoor humidity and keeeping the droplets nice and large so they can stand a chance of being filtered, and drop more rapidly to the floor.    

 

It sounds like the big changes need to be still:

1. Reduce crowding in places like dining rooms by lot 

2. Bars, casino at 20% capacity at most 

3. Theater every other seat + masks 

4. Reduce HVAC recirculation %

5. The "War on Buffets" can be called off- there is almost no evidence of successful fomitic COVID-19 transmission (i.e. surfaces) - the virus is spread around but is not harmful - unlike Noro.  

6. The "Hygiene Theater" performances can be cancelled - spraying antiseptic in a hazmat suit is dangerous, costly and useless 

7. The crew quarters need to be spread out.  The beloved crew bar will be fine at 20% capacity.   

8. "Meet the Captain" becomes a Zoom as do the singles meet and greets 

9. Masks, which have now proven to be highly effective, are worn as a fashion statement 

10.  If we get a vaccine, and it works, and people agree to take it, some of this can be relaxed.  

 

I think the lines that have the guest buy-in for following rules (Cunard, Holland) have the best chances of keeping everone safe.   Those who cannot cope with any of this can start cruise history news-groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by ew101