DeSantis files suit against Biden Admin and the CDC

[Beardface]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't have a copy of the original instructions, to see whether it has changed, and the youtube link doesn't work (and we can't do youtube on the ship's internet), but if is a cruise "influencer", I would take it with several grains of salt, unless he shows visual proof of the change.  But, I would say that anything is having a lessening effect on the CDC is way premature.

It has before and after screen shots of the CDC's site regarding their verbiage of I want to say Section 7 of their guidelines, showing the 12 hour rule is no longer called out, and instead left with, as DCGuy said, "as much as practicable".

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I could just be a coincidence, but if the CDC has amended its condition of "no passengers on the gangway for 12 hours" to something like "as much as practicable," it does beg the question.

 

2 minutes ago, Beardface said:

It has before and after screen shots of the CDC's site regarding their verbiage of I want to say Section 7 of their guidelines, showing the 12 hour rule is no longer called out, and instead left with, as DCGuy said, "as much as practicable".

I know the USCG has mandates to inspect vessels, but also have mandates not to "impede the commerce" of the vessel, in other words, don't unduly delay the vessel.  This may have been inserted by the CDC's legal office as part of a similar mandate.  If the 12 hour limit is no longer listed, and only that the two operations (embarking and disembarking) do not use the same equipment or spaces, "as much as practicable", I don't see much difference.  As I've said, I don't see splitting terminals into separate "routes" and using different routes onto/off of the ship as a major stumbling block, so I don't thing the "12 hour" thing would ever have come up.

[Beardface]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

I know the USCG has mandates to inspect vessels, but also have mandates not to "impede the commerce" of the vessel, in other words, don't unduly delay the vessel.  This may have been inserted by the CDC's legal office as part of a similar mandate.  If the 12 hour limit is no longer listed, and only that the two operations (embarking and disembarking) do not use the same equipment or spaces, "as much as practicable", I don't see much difference.  As I've said, I don't see splitting terminals into separate "routes" and using different routes onto/off of the ship as a major stumbling block, so I don't thing the "12 hour" thing would ever have come up.

The 12 hour rule was actually listed.  There was no ambiguity about it, it was specifically called out.  And now, after lawsuits have been filed and public pressure is mounting, its suddenly not there, and instead left with something very generic that removed specificity over a requirement that previously had it.

 

To argue this is a bunch of nothing and somehow shows the CDC is doing anything but backtracking is.... well, its comical, to be honest.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, Beardface said:

The 12 hour rule was actually listed.  There was no ambiguity about it, it was specifically called out.  And now, after lawsuits have been filed and public pressure is mounting, its suddenly not there, and instead left with something very generic that removed specificity over a requirement that previously had it.

 

To argue this is a bunch of nothing and somehow shows the CDC is doing anything but backtracking is.... well, its comical, to be honest.

Yes, it was called out.  But, if you divide the terminal into embarkation areas and routes, and disembarkation areas and routes, which many of them already do, what does it matter whether it has been 12 hours or 6 days?  The idea is to segregate the two groups, and if you do that, you can have them doing it simultaneously.

 

Glad the facts give you comic relief.

[NightOne]

On 4/8/2021 at 1:25 PM, njhorseman said:

Per this article the cruise lines were caught off guard by this suit and several legal experts have already weighed in calling it a political stunt that isn't legally viable.

 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2021/04/08/desantis-sues-cdc-to-get-cruises-restarted-experts-call-it-a-political-stunt/

 

By legal experts ... aka law professors

 

what is that saying again? those who can't do ... teach LOL

[DCGuy64]

More good news from FL:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article250609129.html?utm_source=pushly&intcid=pushly_931298

Fewest cases in 6 months. Miami-Dade's death toll went down. Let's hope the good news continues.

 

[iamaqt2]

Alaska Governor Dunleavy is considering also filing suit against the CDC...

https://cruiseradio.net/alaska-lawsuit-save-2021-cruise-season/

[d9704011]

10 minutes ago, iamaqt2 said:

Alaska Governor Dunleavy is considering also filing suit against the CDC...

https://cruiseradio.net/alaska-lawsuit-save-2021-cruise-season/

Even more doomed to failure given the closure of Canadian ports to cruise ships and the existing PVSA exigencies.

[iamaqt2]

2 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

Even more doomed to failure given the closure of Canadian ports to cruise ships and the existing PVSA exigencies.

Most likely, but they're still trying to convince Canada to give them a technical stop.  Or a PVSA waiver from US government.  Neither seems likely, but things seem to rapidly evolve when change does happen.

[farmersfight]

4 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

No, it's more like "I won't stop for ice cream until you kids stop arguing." Kids stop arguing. Then dad says "I won't stop for ice cream for another 30 miles." We were told last year that things couldn't go back to normal until cases went down (they have) or until there's a vaccine (there are) and that people were getting vaccinated (there are). And yet nothing. I call BS!

 

But wait, it might be because the CDC Director herself is predicting "impending doom" and she is "scared". Also now, racism is a national health emergency.

[harkinmr]

10 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

My data is as factual as the CDC and more so from their own data. Do a little research and find it yourself

 

July 14, 2020: CDC issues mask mandate. New cases: 64,602. Ever since then, the number of cases skyrocketed to the point of over 200,000 new cases per day.

 

November 12,2020: CDC issues guidance that social distancing will reduce the number of cases. New cases per day 161,639. It took 2 months for it to drop below that number. In fact, the number of cases increased drastically since. 

 

Now, you can use any random, non-factual argument that you want like "people didn't wear a mask", "people didn't social distance", "people went to non-essential businesses", blah blah bah. None of those are factual. I can use factual information from my social group. It is 25-50 people, no mask, no social distancing in a social quarters designed for 50 people. Not one person, 0.00000000% contracted, transmitted, or had anything to do with covid. This has been since Nov 1, 2020. Gathering 7 days a week for 4-6 hours a day except Thanksgiving and XMas day. Everyone has traveled, visited family, no masks, nothing. We all lived as we did before. But, according to what you have been brainwashed to believe, 8 of these people should be in ICU for more than 14-days and 2 of them should be dead. 

 

Rubbish!  Just complete and utter rubbish.  You have not presented any relevant data to support anything you claim. First, the CDC never "mandated" masks for anything other than air travel.  They issued guidance and recommendations for mask wearing in early April of 2020, NOT July.  It was left to individual states to mandate masks or not.  And the guidance on social distancing was issued at the same time, NOT in November.  And I won't even begin to address your personal experience, other than to say it was completely irresponsible in light of the circumstances.  You and your family and friends appear to have been extraordinarily lucky if what you say is true.  

Edited April 12, 2021 by harkinmr

[harkinmr]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't have a copy of the original instructions, to see whether it has changed, and the youtube link doesn't work (and we can't do youtube on the ship's internet), but if is a cruise "influencer", I would take it with several grains of salt, unless he shows visual proof of the change.  But, I would say that anything is having a lessening effect on the CDC is way premature.

The language has apparently been changed to eliminate the 12-hour rule but keep the separation rules in place using the standard "to the extent practicable", which I believe implies efforts reasonably necessary to achieve the goal.

[harkinmr]

21 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The language has apparently been changed to eliminate the 12-hour rule but keep the separation rules in place using the standard "to the extent practicable", which I believe implies efforts reasonably necessary to achieve the goal.

And I would credit this change to continuing dialogue between the cruise lines and the CDC outside of the public/media glare.

[At Sea At Peace]

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

And I would credit this change to continuing dialogue between the cruise lines and the CDC outside of the public/media glare.

 

Well, it's really hard to reasonably explain why the same air space for disembarking passengers and embarking passengers has to be separated by a 12 hour timeline when airports are loading passengers though gates, boarding tunnels, etc. minutes after others have traversed the same space.

 

The CDCAP needs to address 100% vaccinated crew and passenger cruises first.

[teacherman]

I DO NOT KNOW, but the 12 hour thing could be for more extensive cleaning of the staterooms.  Some hotels advertise that there is a 24 hour period before a room is rented out after being vacated by the previous customer.  All of these "ideas" are probably going to change several times before ships sail again.  If these were hard and fast rules ships could start sailing ASAP.  The whole problem appears to come from the "sensational" exploits of the Princess ships and HAL Zaandam when this first began.  No one wants to be involved in something like that again, not the cruise companies, the crew, the passengers, the Coast Guard, the CDC, the governors of port states, etc.  No one.

[mianmike]

5 hours ago, Beardface said:

The CDC has stealthy removed verbiage regarding 12 hour delay between disembarkation and boarding to language on its website to now saying "whenever practical", so we're apparently already seeing this kind of political pressure pay off.

 

I agree, political pressure played a role in CDC's readdressing the cruise industry.  Clearly the CDC had put a return to cruising on the backburner.  Pleasure activities were not a priority.  DeSantis publicly ridiculed the CDC and the CDC returned the favor by dusting off the outdated Framework for Conditional Sailing Order which obviously was written before vaccines were as prevalent.  They added a few sentences discussing vaccines and released the outdated and arduous guidelines.  Kind of a: "you want it, you got it!"  But now, the CDC, CLIA, Senator Murkowski and the cruise lines are talking and I expect more positive changes to come.  Alaska and Florida politicians do deserve some credit.    

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, mianmike said:

 

I agree, political pressure played a role in CDC's readdressing the cruise industry.  Clearly the CDC had put a return to cruising on the backburner.  Pleasure activities were not a priority.  DeSantis publicly ridiculed the CDC and the CDC returned the favor by dusting off the outdated Framework for Conditional Sailing Order which obviously was written before vaccines were as prevalent.  They added a few sentences discussing vaccines and released the outdated and arduous guidelines.  Kind of a: "you want it, you got it!"  But now, the CDC, CLIA, Senator Murkowski and the cruise lines are talking and I expect more positive changes to come.  Alaska and Florida politicians do deserve some credit.    

I wouldn't give Governor DeSantis any credit for this movement.  The CDC released their updated technical instructions on April 2nd.  DeSantis filed his lawsuit on April 8th.  I believe that the change is a result of behind-the-scenes negotiations between the cruise lines and the CDC.  While there may be some political pressure aspects to this, I would not encourage anyone to believe that somehow the CSO is going to be eliminated, but rather there will be further discussions and ultimately compliance by the cruise lines to get started sailing.

[harkinmr]

And the hero's great work continues.

 

https://news.yahoo.com/another-cruise-line-require-vaccines-224800706.html

 

“The Governor’s Executive Order provides that businesses in Florida are prohibited from requiring patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business,” press secretary Cody McCloud said by email. “Therefore, the Executive Order prohibits cruise lines from requiring vaccine passports for their Florida operations.”

 

 

[mianmike]

50 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

I wouldn't give Governor DeSantis any credit for this movement.  The CDC released their updated technical instructions on April 2nd.  DeSantis filed his lawsuit on April 8th.  I believe that the change is a result of behind-the-scenes negotiations between the cruise lines and the CDC.  While there may be some political pressure aspects to this, I would not encourage anyone to believe that somehow the CSO is going to be eliminated, but rather there will be further discussions and ultimately compliance by the cruise lines to get started sailing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the lawsuit is a joke and DeSantis has barely helped, (based on the resulting release of the onerous and unworkable CSO framework) but I do think when DeSantis met with the Cruise line CEOs it focused the spotlight on the cruise industry and the CSO.  The media then gave it attention, which IMO helped start movement.  If not for that I don't know that we'd be any closer to sailing as apparently the CDC and the cruise lines weren't talking. 

[Stallion]

This such a basic issue of federal preemption under the Interstate Commerce Clause and Maritime Law that DeSantis will be laughed out of Court if raises the argument that Florida has authority to regulate international travel requirements. 

[BoozinCroozin]

11 hours ago, harkinmr said:

Rubbish!  Just complete and utter rubbish.  

Go live in your hole of media driven propaganda. As long as we have people that are blindly led by the government and media, it is sheep to the slaughter house plain and simple. We are now living in another era that can easily understand how history repeats itself. It is no wonder we never learn from history because people are so blind and easily persuaded.

[KennyFla]

11 hours ago, mianmike said:

 

I agree, political pressure played a role in CDC's readdressing the cruise industry.  Clearly the CDC had put a return to cruising on the backburner.  Pleasure activities were not a priority.  DeSantis publicly ridiculed the CDC and the CDC returned the favor by dusting off the outdated Framework for Conditional Sailing Order which obviously was written before vaccines were as prevalent.  They added a few sentences discussing vaccines and released the outdated and arduous guidelines.  Kind of a: "you want it, you got it!"  But now, the CDC, CLIA, Senator Murkowski and the cruise lines are talking and I expect more positive changes to come.  Alaska and Florida politicians do deserve some credit.    

 

The real change started when cruise lines started moving ships out of the country.  A lot of people's jobs are in danger of being lost.  Still are.   Nothing really has happened yet.  The pressure needs to be kept on.  IMO this was another delay tactic by the CDC.  Give people some meat to make them back down again.  If the cruise lines sit and wait again we will still be having this debate in December.

Edited April 13, 2021 by KennyFla

[chengkp75]

14 hours ago, teacherman said:

I DO NOT KNOW, but the 12 hour thing could be for more extensive cleaning of the staterooms.

The "12 hour rule" only applied to public spaces, and only in terminals.  It had to do with comingling of embarking and disembarking populations, not a need for more sanitation onboard.

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, mianmike said:

If not for that I don't know that we'd be any closer to sailing as apparently the CDC and the cruise lines weren't talking. 

I don't know if the CDC and cruise lines are talking any more, or if anyone's position has changed any lately.  Everyone thinks the CDC's comment about "hopefully" cruising in July was a change in position, but the next part of their sentence was "under the requirements of the CSO", meaning that the CDC hoped the cruise lines would get their fingers out and meet the requirements so cruising could return in July.

[farmersfight]

10 hours ago, Stallion said:

This such a basic issue of federal preemption under the Interstate Commerce Clause and Maritime Law that DeSantis will be laughed out of Court if raises the argument that Florida has authority to regulate international travel requirements. 

 

I agree. I think that DeSantis is over-reaching on this one. I don't understand why he "went to bat" for the cruise lines (by meeting with and hearing the CEOs) and then tries to throw up a big roadblock to their restart by prohibiting the cruise lines from requiring proof of covid vaccinations (i.e. covid vaccine passports).