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DeSantis files suit against Biden Admin and the CDC


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15 hours ago, richstowe said:

Yup . No fan of the "special treatment" the CDC has smacked the cruise industry with but why is DeSantis only acting tough now . Why it's almost as if he was afraid of upsetting the previous administration . 🙄

Would guess were were not in this position until say 30 days ago?

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On 4/8/2021 at 12:43 PM, Beardface said:

This was always going to be the follow-up to NCL's rebuttal earlier in the week.  Now the CDC is going to have to argue in court on why they are setting a different standard for the cruise industry than they are for the airline industry, for example.  And they're going to have to come with facts.

 

Would not be surprised to either see the CDC settle this out of court and open cruising based on the NCL guidelines, or the lawsuit fasttracked through Florida courts.

Little chance of this succeeding or being settled before we are back to "normal". FL doesn't have a leg to stand on.

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Trouble is when Desantis speaks does anyone really believe what comes out of his mouth? Whenever this guy speaks, people must be thinking, oboy what misinformation is coming out of his mouth this time.

 

I think Florida would be better off  if he kept his mouth shut.

 

https://www.aol.com/news/youtube-pulls-florida-governors-video-190752857.html

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I expressed my disagreement with the lawsuit on the basis of that taxpayer funds should not be used to prop up private industry but I have to admit it certainly generated a lot of media attention and much of that attention was positive and supportive.  It wasn't necessarily supportive of the lawsuit but it did bring into focus the unusual selective shutdown of the cruise industry.    Many good arguments are being put forth in those mass media interviews.  

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23 hours ago, SpainAlien said:

I think it's a good gesture but law suits take such a long time to even get to court I think it is futile

 

 

That lawsuit was so poorly written and the legal arguments so weak I would be amazed if it isn't thrown out . . . unless they luck out and find a federal judge who happens to have a cruise booked in July. 🤣  

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The economic impact a port heavy state like FL is immense. It is not just the cruise industry, it is all the ancillary business: port, terminal workers, hotels, restaurants, cabs/Uber/Lyft, cruise line support businesses for signs etc. The cruise lines alone probably bring in several $B for the state alone. All the other businesses are many $Bs as well. FL is right to seek an injunction. The CDC cannot prove with any ounce of fact that the cruise industry should be shutdown. All of their facts indicate social distancing, mask mandates, and everything else has done nothing to slow or stop the spread. If the CSO is to stop covid, then it is as useless as their guidance. The facts are that cruises have been sailing with 1,000s of passengers for at least 6 months with absolutely no outbreak and very isolated positives that turned out to be false positives. 

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On 4/8/2021 at 2:30 PM, drew69 said:

Perhaps the politicians in Florida should raise the ridiculously low unemployment benefits in the state if they really cared.

Perhaps the politicians in Florida should FIX the unemployment system if they really cared.

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23 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I expressed my disagreement with the lawsuit on the basis of that taxpayer funds should not be used to prop up private industry...

But taxpayers dollars are being HEAVILY used for private industry. Look at the insane amounts of taxpayer money used to give out checks, provide insane unemployment benefits, and everything else that went out. Don't believe for one minute that taxpayer money is not being used for private businesses. All those crazy and insane PPP grants are payouts for businesses.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

But taxpayers dollars are being HEAVILY used for private industry. Look at the insane amounts of taxpayer money used to give out checks, provide insane unemployment benefits, and everything else that went out. Don't believe for one minute that taxpayer money is not being used for private businesses. All those crazy and insane PPP grants are payouts for businesses.

This argument falls under "just because others are doing it....." or "if others jump off the cliff...."

I am in business, I get offers every single day for huge loans, I know what is happening.   Fortunately I have been in business long enough to have saved enough to endure the duration.

Edited by Mary229
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40 minutes ago, put me on a ship said:

Perhaps the politicians in Florida should FIX the unemployment system if they really cared.

Like taking an aspirin for a hangover...?  Unemployment is a bandaid for the symptoms, not a solution to the problem. 

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13 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

This argument falls under "just because others are doing it....." or "if others jump off the cliff...."

I am in business, I get offers every single day for huge loans, I know what is happening.   Fortunately I have been in business long enough to have saved enough to endure the duration.

Businesses took them because they could, not because they needed them. It was a buyout to voters. Most banks gave the loans to their top clients because they get the same amount from doling them if they did 10 or they did 10,000. It was easier to dump their loan allotment to 10 businesses than a whole bunch. In most cases, this turned into free money/compensation to the business leader(s).

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2 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Businesses took them because they could, not because they needed them. It was a buyout to voters. Most banks gave the loans to their top clients because they get the same amount from doling them if they did 10 or they did 10,000. It was easier to dump their loan allotment to 10 businesses than a whole bunch. In most cases, this turned into free money/compensation to the business leader(s).

Not my first rodeo!  I stand by my own principles not what others are doing.  I also understand how it undervalues the currency too but that is not the purpose of this board.   My point was I think the cruise lines are the ones who should be mounting legal suits not the government.  I also made the point that even though I disagree with the action it did result in lots of pro-cruise media.

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3 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

........... The CDC cannot prove with any ounce of fact that the cruise industry should be shutdown. All of their facts indicate social distancing, mask mandates, and everything else has done nothing to slow or stop the spread................

Seriously? What alternate universe do you reside in? I won't bother wasting my time to provide links FROM the CDC which debunk what you just said. SMH!!!!!!

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On 4/8/2021 at 2:25 PM, njhorseman said:

Per this article the cruise lines were caught off guard by this suit and several legal experts have already weighed in calling it a political stunt that isn't legally viable.

 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2021/04/08/desantis-sues-cdc-to-get-cruises-restarted-experts-call-it-a-political-stunt/

First, the Tampa Bay Times [has a] Left-Center bias based on editorial positions that mostly favor the left.

 

Second, to suggest the cruise lines were caught off guard by this suit is provably false as the heads of the major cruise lines were with the Governor for a round table discussion within the past two weeks where Florida's Attorney General Ashley Moody threatened to launch this lawsuit against the federal government.

 

Third, the cased filed by Florida cites a precedent case, Skyworks, Ltd. v. CDC, 2021 WL 911720, at *10 (N.D. Ohio 2021), in which an Ohio Court found the CDC's Order [in that case] was invalid because it exceeded “the agency’s statutory authority provided in Section 361 of the Public Health Service Act…”xvii Section 361.  That case, decided on March 10, 2021, found that the CDC's actions under 42 U.S. Code § 264 "must be reasonably of the type Congress contemplated in the statutory text—fumigation, disinfection, destruction of animals or things, or other measures reasonably of this type.”

 

And while several have posted that it takes a long time for a court case to be heard [which is true] an injunction against a Government imposed policy can move quite quickly [as many have in this pandemic] if the State of Florida can demonstrate in the early hearings that it is likely to succeed in the case in chief.

 

So I do not dismiss outright the chances of the State succeeding in getting a temporary or permanent injunction, which is all it may need to move toward reopening cruising from Florida's ports.  Let's see what unfolds.

 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, HuliHuli said:

 

Third, the cased filed by Florida cites a precedent case, Skyworks, Ltd. v. CDC, 2021 WL 911720, at *10 (N.D. Ohio 2021), in which an Ohio Court found the CDC's Order [in that case] was invalid because it exceeded “the agency’s statutory authority provided in Section 361 of the Public Health Service Act…”xvii Section 361.  That case, decided on March 10, 2021, found that the CDC's actions under 42 U.S. Code § 264 "must be reasonably of the type Congress contemplated in the statutory text—fumigation, disinfection, destruction of animals or things, or other measures reasonably of this type.”

First, the order of a lone District Court Judge is not binding outside that district. Second, that ruling was made on the narrowest of grounds, specifically addressing only whether the CDC's eviction moratorium was legal and has no applicability to what we're discussing here. 

To quote: 

"CONCLUSION

This case involves the limited question whether Congress has given the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention the authority to make and enforce a nationwide moratorium on evictions. This case does not implicate broader policy considerations regarding such a moratorium or depend on judgments whether it constitutes sound public policy. On that issue, the Court expresses no opinion."

 

Edited by njhorseman
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24 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

First, the order of a lone District Court Judge is not binding outside that district. Second, that ruling was made on the narrowest of grounds, specifically addressing only whether the CDC's eviction moratorium was legal and has no applicability to what we're discussing here. 

To quote: 

"CONCLUSION

This case involves the limited question whether Congress has given the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention the authority to make and enforce a nationwide moratorium on evictions. This case does not implicate broader policy considerations regarding such a moratorium or depend on judgments whether it constitutes sound public policy. On that issue, the Court expresses no opinion."

 

First, even if the case is "not binding outside that district" it IS a precedent case.  All courts follow the principal of stare decisis, the legal principle of determining points in litigation according to precedent.

 

Second, the court in this case could take the same tact in deciding Florida's case if it finds "This case involves the limited question whether Congress has given the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention the authority to make and enforce a nationwide moratorium on cruising."

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1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

Seriously? What alternate universe do you reside in? I won't bother wasting my time to provide links FROM the CDC which debunk what you just said. SMH!!!!!!

The infection rate is no different with Mask vs No Mask, Social Distancing vs No Social Distancing, Washing Hands vs Not Washing Hands. ALL and I mean ALL protocols and guidelines the CDC has put in place has done NOTHING to reduce the spread of covid. That is a fact. And if you think they could prove otherwise, I have ocean front property for you in Nebraska.

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22 minutes ago, HuliHuli said:

First, even if the case is "not binding outside that district" it IS a precedent case.  All courts follow the principal of stare decisis, the legal principle of determining points in litigation according to precedent.

 

Second, the court in this case could take the same tact in deciding Florida's case if it finds "This case involves the limited question whether Congress has given the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention the authority to make and enforce a nationwide moratorium on cruising."

The CDC already had authority over health and safety regulations for cruises as part of its role to detect and respond to health threats. The case you're citing turns very narrowly on the moratorium on evictions in the CARES Act expiring and  not being specifically extended in subsequent legislation.

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On 4/10/2021 at 5:21 AM, Jimbo said:

Trouble is when Desantis speaks does anyone really believe what comes out of his mouth? Whenever this guy speaks, people must be thinking, oboy what misinformation is coming out of his mouth this time.

 

I think Florida would be better off  if he kept his mouth shut.

 

https://www.aol.com/news/youtube-pulls-florida-governors-video-190752857.html

I would have to agree.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

The economic impact a port heavy state like FL is immense. It is not just the cruise industry, it is all the ancillary business: port, terminal workers, hotels, restaurants, cabs/Uber/Lyft, cruise line support businesses for signs etc. The cruise lines alone probably bring in several $B for the state alone. All the other businesses are many $Bs as well. FL is right to seek an injunction. The CDC cannot prove with any ounce of fact that the cruise industry should be shutdown. All of their facts indicate social distancing, mask mandates, and everything else has done nothing to slow or stop the spread. If the CSO is to stop covid, then it is as useless as their guidance. The facts are that cruises have been sailing with 1,000s of passengers for at least 6 months with absolutely no outbreak and very isolated positives that turned out to be false positives. 

Those cruise ships did not have Americans onboard and are not sailing out of US ports or am I wrong.

Edited by Goldconnection
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1 hour ago, BoozinCroozin said:

The infection rate is no different with Mask vs No Mask, Social Distancing vs No Social Distancing, Washing Hands vs Not Washing Hands. ALL and I mean ALL protocols and guidelines the CDC has put in place has done NOTHING to reduce the spread of covid. That is a fact. And if you think they could prove otherwise, I have ocean front property for you in Nebraska.

If possible please share where you got these scientific facts. I have not been able to find them. Would love to share them with my group.

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4 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Seriously? What alternate universe do you reside in? I won't bother wasting my time to provide links FROM the CDC which debunk what you just said. 

True, but bunk is bunk.  Asserting things without substantiation is bunk.  Asserting others are full of bunk without anything but bunk spewing from your infrastructure is bunk.

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51 minutes ago, Goldconnection said:

If possible please share where you got these scientific facts. I have not been able to find them. Would love to share them with my group.

Kinda like the WHO looking for virus origins.  Hard to find something when you dont look very hard, yet come to a definitive conclusion Without investigating.  Intellectual curiosity is fun!

 

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