Carnival Luminosa New Paint

[DrSea]

Me personally, I like NCL's paint job best. I like that colorful design, but I know it doesn't appeal to everyone. 

[F27TW]

I think it looks good and more elegant.  That ugly whale tail funnel  thing is getting a bit long in the tooth now anyway.    This new look reminds me of the funnel on the pre-Fantasy class ships  (original mardi Gras, Carnivale).   No reason all Carnival ships have to have the same funnel design .. especially since the livery is the same otherwise.    When you think of it,airlines have their logo on the tails of differently designed aircraft.  Same kinda thing.

 

What is telling is that the new blue-bow livery is not on this one .. almost makes it seem like they're intending forthis to be temporary.

[AmazedByCruising]

30 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

It is added to provide reserve buoyancy to reduce pitching, just as the "flare" of the bow section above the waterline does the same thing, but doesn't do anything for stability.

 

Hi Chief, then what is "stability"? I thought both rolling and pitching would be part of it. (as well as the other 4)

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Hi Chief, then what is "stability"? I thought both rolling and pitching would be part of it. (as well as the other 4)

Stability is "Ship stability is the ability of a ship to float in an upright position and, if inclined under action of an external force, to return to this position after the external force has ceased acting."  Therefore stability does not care how much a ship pitches or rolls, it cares about the ability of the ship to return to upright from that pitching and rolling.  A duck tail or a flared bow are more akin to roll stabilizer fins or tanks, that seek to dampen the pitching, but do not affect the ability of the ship to generate righting moment.  This is a common misconception with non-mariners, thinking that a "stable" ship does not roll, when in fact the more stable a ship is, the more uncomfortable the rolling is (snap rolling).

 

The most comfortable ship to be on in a seaway is a loaded single hull tanker, that has virtually no "GM", the measure of a ship's stability, as this ship will roll very slowly, and likely "hang" at the end of the roll (to one side or the other) before "deciding" (by eventually building righting moment) to return to upright.  These rolls can be measured in minutes from one side to another, unlike a cruise ship that typically rolls in less than a minute.

Edited July 7, 2022 by chengkp75

[AmazedByCruising]

 Thank you, as always such interesting information and words I can google. 

 

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

This is a common misconception with non-mariners, thinking that a "stable" ship does not roll, when in fact the more stable a ship is, the more uncomfortable the rolling is (snap rolling).

 

OK, but this is CC, not a mariner site. So "we" think stability is a metric that somehow differentiates between a surf board and solid ground. Something like "seasickness cases/pax/day".

 

To quote a site that might be right this time: 

 

"G", is the center of gravity. "GM", the stiffness parameter of a boat, can be lengthened by lowering the center of gravity or changing the hull form (and thus changing the volume displaced and second moment of area of the waterplane) or both.

 

The "changing the hull form" is done by designing a duck tail, to change GM?

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 Thank you, as always such interesting information and words I can google. 

 

 

OK, but this is CC, not a mariner site. So "we" think stability is a metric that somehow differentiates between a surf board and solid ground. Something like "seasickness cases/pax/day".

 

To quote a site that might be right this time: 

 

"G", is the center of gravity. "GM", the stiffness parameter of a boat, can be lengthened by lowering the center of gravity or changing the hull form (and thus changing the volume displaced and second moment of area of the waterplane) or both.

 

The "changing the hull form" is done by designing a duck tail, to change GM?

Not really.  The "hull form" is what is under the waterline.  Stability does not depend on the shape of the ship above the waterline. The "duck tail" is nearly 100% above the waterline, and doesn't affect the volume displaced (changing the center of buoyancy).  Changing the center of buoyancy moves the "metacenter", which is the point that the center of buoyancy rotates around when the ship rolls or pitches.  "GM" is the distance from this "metacenter" to the center of gravity.  While a duck tail does is provide a small amount of additional waterplane area when the stern goes down in pitching, the amount of change to the waterplane area is very small compared to the upright waterplane area (900 foot long hull, 10 foot duck tail).  What the duck tail really does is provide an additional air volume that the ship is trying to submerge when the stern pitches down, and that air volume creates more buoyancy.  But, the duck tail never really goes underwater to change the amount of buoyancy, it just makes it harder for the rest of the stern of the ship from going down deeper.

Edited July 7, 2022 by chengkp75

[AmazedByCruising]

 

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

What the duck tail really does is provide an additional air volume that the ship is trying to submerge when the stern pitches down, and that air volume creates more buoyancy.  But, the duck tail never really goes underwater to change the amount of buoyancy, it just makes it harder for the rest of the stern of the ship from going down deeper.

 

I don't doubt every cruise ship has enough buoyancy. They're not exactly filled to the limit with potatoes or oil.

 

But what's the use of a duck tail if it doesn't push up like Archimedes told it should? It must go at least partly underwater every now and then, otherwise it's decoration.

 

 

[natefish95]

21 hours ago, JP350 said:

I’m just saying that why is carnival constantly taking the cheap way out all the time. Carnival is cheaping out this old ship while other cruise lines are constantly bringing on new ships after Covid even though they are struggling too.

Carnival has been taking the cheap way out for 50 years. Why are we surprised? 

[foodsvcmgr]

Chengkp - thanks as always for the technical explanation.

To respond to some opinions here that not adding a Carnival-esque whale tail equates to cheapness, would you say that for this ship it would represent a technical improvement or merely cosmetic?

Thanks.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

 

I don't doubt every cruise ship has enough buoyancy. They're not exactly filled to the limit with potatoes or oil.

 

But what's the use of a duck tail if it doesn't push up like Archimedes told it should? It must go at least partly underwater every now and then, otherwise it's decoration.

 

 

When anchored it is the swim platform for the crew.😏

[Hunter69]

On 7/7/2022 at 11:29 AM, bamaone said:

I’m amazed at all the crying comments over a ship being added. The whale tail does nothing for the ship. So what if doesn’t get the full paint job since it may only be temporary. I say great job Carnival trying to do what it can to keep its company going.

Keep It Going...

Cruising Started back up in Australia 2 months ago...

Not With Carnival (we used to have a year round ship), but with P&O Plus Princess.

Carnival is still 3 months away before Splendor comes back.

We where told back in March that cruising can recommence, but Carnival the brand, not the company is still way off.

Ps:Its been fun seeing Loyal To Royal passengers on P&O ships (P&O are a more budget cruise line in Australia)

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

On 7/6/2022 at 4:54 PM, JP350 said:

Carnival has lost its edge so to speak. They have 2 new builds for the whole corporation scheduled (22 and 23) but after that nothing. On top of that they’re taking the cheap way out with ships. If you look at their competitors Royal, NCL, Virgin, MSC, and Disney they have new builds scheduled to last them years while carnival isn’t keeping up

We get it you don’t like Carnival. This is very early concept and could be temporary if not it’s not that big of a deal. 

[Lane Hog]

When I'm eating the food and enjoying the view, the color the lifeboats or what shape the funnel is simply don't matter....

The cruise industry's financial situation is still very shaky.  To think about spending money on frivolous eye candy is silly to even consider.

Hat's off to Carnival for being financially innovative and repurposing a mostly depreciated assed with several good years left, and not adding more long term debt like Royal, NCL, Virgin, MSC, and Disney are with those fancy new builds....

[Illbcruzn4life]

20 minutes ago, Lane Hog said:

When I'm eating the food and enjoying the view, the color the lifeboats or what shape the funnel is simply don't matter....

The cruise industry's financial situation is still very shaky.  To think about spending money on frivolous eye candy is silly to even consider.

Hat's off to Carnival for being financially innovative and repurposing a mostly depreciated assed with several good years left, and not adding more long term debt like Royal, NCL, Virgin, MSC, and Disney are with those fancy new builds....

Did Carnival cancel the Celebration and Jubilee?

[Lane Hog]

Yup, but that's pretty much the end of the builds.

[dave_k58]

I guess it will be part of the Carnival brand - but without the 2.0 upgrades.   I was kind of wondering if it would be moved to Princess.

[tidecat]

2 hours ago, dave_k58 said:

I guess it will be part of the Carnival brand - but without the 2.0 upgrades.   I was kind of wondering if it would be moved to Princess.

Princess has 2 ships at 175,000 gross tons each on order with Fincantieri. The first is due in 2023 and is currently under construction. I believe it will be the largest ship by gross tonnage ever to be constructed in Italy. Princess sent two ships to P&O Australia prior to taking delivery of the final two Royal-class ships (Enchanted Princess and Discovery Princess) so it is not unreasonable to think they will transfer out or sell two older ships. 

 

Even if no new ships were coming, Princess would likely send an older ship to one of the mainstream brands such as P&O Australia, Costa, or Carnival rather than the other way around. You can always upgrade things like bedding, decor, and furniture on an older ship, but it becomes very expensive to make staterooms larger, even if you're willing to have fewer of them.

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

But what's the use of a duck tail if it doesn't push up like Archimedes told it should? It must go at least partly underwater every now and then, otherwise it's decoration.

Archimedes never said that a submerged object, either fully or partially, "pushes up".  Any object, when either partially submerged (ship) or fully submerged, pushes down with the force of gravity.  It is the water that is displaced by submerging the object, that is trying to re-occupy the space of the object, that pushes up.  But let's let that go.

 

The duck tail almost never goes more than a few inches into the water.  The closest analogy I can think of is a trim tab on a speed boat.  Do you know what I mean?  The little flaps on the back of a boat that can be hinged up and down by hydraulic cylinders to force the bow back into the water.  Their area is miniscule compared to the waterplane of the boat, yet their effect is great in adjusting the trim of the boat and forcing the bow back into the water.  They are just flat metal, no air space in them, yet they act to depress the water (forcing down) behind the boat, and the "equal and opposite reaction" is to force the stern up, lowering the bow.  The duck tail is similar, merely extending the flat area behind the propellers to increase the down force on the water.  The only reason the duck tail is not just a flat piece of metal like a trim tab is structural, at it's size, it needs to be reinforced, so a box girder shape is stronger than a flat sheet (think of a cardboard box holds up more weight than a sheet of cardboard).

[CarnivalShips480]

8 hours ago, Illbcruzn4life said:

Did Carnival cancel the Celebration and Jubilee?

No definitely not. They think that after Celebration and Jubilee there will be no more newbuild Carnival ships for awhile.

[tidecat]

2 hours ago, CarnivalShips480 said:

No definitely not. They think that after Celebration and Jubilee there will be no more newbuild Carnival ships for awhile.

Given that most of the Fantasy class will have been disposed of by the end of the year, the next one to watch may be Carnival Sunshine. She turns 30 in 2026, so Carnival has a few years.

 

Part of it will depend on how fast Carnival can get its debt back to historical levels, which will be around 15-20 Billion.

 

The 2030s should in theory match the building boom of 2000-09. That decade saw Carnival add 12 ships spanning 5 different classes.

[AmazedByCruising]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Archimedes never said that a submerged object, either fully or partially, "pushes up".  Any object, when either partially submerged (ship) or fully submerged, pushes down with the force of gravity.  It is the water that is displaced by submerging the object, that is trying to re-occupy the space of the object, that pushes up.  But let's let that go.

 

The duck tail almost never goes more than a few inches into the water.  The closest analogy I can think of is a trim tab on a speed boat.  Do you know what I mean?  The little flaps on the back of a boat that can be hinged up and down by hydraulic cylinders to force the bow back into the water.  Their area is miniscule compared to the waterplane of the boat, yet their effect is great in adjusting the trim of the boat and forcing the bow back into the water.  They are just flat metal, no air space in them, yet they act to depress the water (forcing down) behind the boat, and the "equal and opposite reaction" is to force the stern up, lowering the bow.  The duck tail is similar, merely extending the flat area behind the propellers to increase the down force on the water.  The only reason the duck tail is not just a flat piece of metal like a trim tab is structural, at it's size, it needs to be reinforced, so a box girder shape is stronger than a flat sheet (think of a cardboard box holds up more weight than a sheet of cardboard).

 

Thank you again. I googled a video of a trim tab because I didn't know they existed. So it basically works like a stabilizer, which doesn't need gravity but steers water in a different direction?

(And of course it's fixed instead of active, and it prevents pitch instead of roll). 

 

From the video I saw that there are two trim tabs that can be controlled individually, making it possible to undo the listing when a speed boat is unevenly balanced. It is again a pie in the sky 🙂 , but I must ask. Would it work to split the duck tail in two parts, make them active, and let them suppress both pitching and rolling at the same time?

 

Even more Gyro Gearloose-like, maybe not even with big electromotors but air that is flowing from one side to the other while the airflow being diminished by just the right amount of resistance to make the ride most comfortable. Generating "free" electricity at the same time. 

[BlerkOne]

10 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

From the video I saw that there are two trim tabs that can be controlled individually, making it possible to undo the listing when a speed boat is unevenly balanced.

 

You can also steer, as in turn the boat.

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

Would it work to split the duck tail in two parts, make them active, and let them suppress both pitching and rolling at the same time?

If you look at the size of a trim tab in comparison to the size of the boat, both length and weight, and then extrapolate that for a cruise ship, you get an enormous appendage sticking out the back of the ship (about 40 feet or more).   That would lead to larger port fees (longer berth).  Putting motors in the tails to operate them requires access to service and maintain them, and they would need to be very large, or you have ugly hydraulic cylinders attached between the aft dining room windows.  And, the force to dampen rolling is limited, as the center of the tabs is close to the center of the ship, so little moment arm.  You would also have to have these flapping up and down to counteract rolling.  If you mean to minimize listing or heeling instead of rolling, again, the force from anything less than an enormous tab would do nothing.

 

Not following you about air flow.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If you look at the size of a trim tab in comparison to the size of the boat, both length and weight, and then extrapolate that for a cruise ship, you get an enormous appendage sticking out the back of the ship (about 40 feet or more).   That would lead to larger port fees (longer berth).  Putting motors in the tails to operate them requires access to service and maintain them, and they would need to be very large, or you have ugly hydraulic cylinders attached between the aft dining room windows.  And, the force to dampen rolling is limited, as the center of the tabs is close to the center of the ship, so little moment arm.  You would also have to have these flapping up and down to counteract rolling.  If you mean to minimize listing or heeling instead of rolling, again, the force from anything less than an enormous tab would do nothing.

 

Not following you about air flow.

Controlled stabilizers on each side of the ship do a great job of trying to keep the ship stable.

[AmazedByCruising]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If you look at the size of a trim tab in comparison to the size of the boat, both length and weight, and then extrapolate that for a cruise ship, you get an enormous appendage sticking out the back of the ship (about 40 feet or more).   That would lead to larger port fees (longer berth).  Putting motors in the tails to operate them requires access to service and maintain them, and they would need to be very large, or you have ugly hydraulic cylinders attached between the aft dining room windows.  And, the force to dampen rolling is limited, as the center of the tabs is close to the center of the ship, so little moment arm.  You would also have to have these flapping up and down to counteract rolling.  If you mean to minimize listing or heeling instead of rolling, again, the force from anything less than an enormous tab would do nothing.

 

Not following you about air flow.

 

As I expected, pie in the sky 🙂 

The air flow would be similar to this gym machine, when you push left down, the pressure is used to lift right. Depending on your condition, you set the resistance of the air flow. The more violent waves, the harder it should be for the air to go from left to right.  But your explanation makes sure it won't work anyway. 🙂