You think it's only Princess?...

[wowzz]

48 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

I'm sure you are right.  And I suspect that, although they discourage it, if a 30yr old really wanted to travel with Saga, they wouldn't stop them.  Likewise, if you really wanted to take under 18s on an adult-only ship they probably wouldn't stop you either because the companies wouldn't want to fall foul of discrimination laws.  But, they do everything they possibly can to limit their passengers to those within their target demographic via their marketing and by making it seem as if someone who doesn't fit in that demographic cannot travel. 

 

And it certainly looks from recent marketing / advertising campaigns that Princess and others are making it very clear that they are targeting a younger demographic than might have previously been the case.  I sense from some of the recent threads on these boards that, in doing that, they are actively disincentivising some of those who fall within the more mature demographic!  While some on here think that would be a mistake, I guess that the cruise lines know their balance books and calculate that they will make more over time from recruiting new younger cruisers than they will hanging on to the older ones. 

 

Time will doubtless tell who is right.  I suspect that, as with most things, the real trick will be to find the compromise / balance point between attracting new customers who will provide income for the next forty years and retaining those who have provided income for the last forty years and may continue to do so for a few years more.

 

Actually, in the UK, holidays are one if the areas specifically excluded from age discrimination legislation, so banning under 18s is entirely legal.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance#:~:text=discrimination - dual characteristics-,Age discrimination,an exception from the ban

[Eglesbrech]

31 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Actually, in the UK, holidays are one if the areas specifically excluded from age discrimination legislation, so banning under 18s is entirely legal.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance#:~:text=discrimination - dual characteristics-,Age discrimination,an exception from the ban

I believe it is more nuanced that excluding anything to do with holidays Wozz. I think the purpose of the event must be to bring together a specific group so SAGA is a good example as it brings together senior adults. That’s probably why it says “aged related holidays” and not just the much broader “holidays”. I recall there being a lot of debate about this when the Act was drafted along with holiday insurance provisions.

 

I could of course be wrong.

[cruisequeen4ever]

Even though Celebrity has been trying to steer toward the younger for quite a while, it seems the demo still skews older. 

[Guest ldtr]

6 hours ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

That's a very good point.  And then, of course, there are all the adult only ships.  So, clearly cruise lines in the UK are allowed to discriminate on the basis of age...  

The US has similar age discrimination laws, but also allow adults only resorts and cruise lines.

 

Age discrimination in most cases only applies to adults, not children.

[Guest ldtr]

3 hours ago, cruisequeen4ever said:

Even though Celebrity has been trying to steer toward the younger for quite a while, it seems the demo still skews older. 

According to data I have seen Celebrity has been successful in dropping its median age by about 4 years since 2012.  HAL has dropped its by about 5 years.

 

Interestingly, the average age for the industry has increased from 46.8 in 2019, to 47.7  in 2021 and the average cruise length has dropped from 7.2 days in 2019 to 6.6 in 2021

[Kay S]

14 hours ago, sloopsailor said:

 

 

 

Apparently being a "young marketing executive" doesn't require a basic understanding of the economics of things that are significantly different in value. 

 

Not sure what they are teaching these youngsters in college these days. But common sense economics apparently isn't one of them.

 

 

I don't think they award degrees in marketing in junior high school. 😜  This "executive" is possibly a dweller under a bridge (the "T" word is forbidden, I hear.)  Clue #1:  A cruise marketing executive would not call the ship a "boat."   Clue #2:  The cruise line doesn't want my "old money."  The cruise lines want all the money, every cent in circulation. 🙂

Edited October 10, 2022 by Kay S

[jwattle]

20 hours ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

I got bitter sweet news for you, affording longer cruises/having money to go on a cruise isn't enough for cruiselines to keep seniors. The subliminal value of a carefully crafted image coupled with a new initiative to re establish the cruising industry means that a seniors dollar is worth less than the cruise lines new target market dollar.

 

Similar to sports teams atheles who perorm well on the field but morally or ethically do not align with the value of the team get cut, no matter how well they perform. Same with older people on cruiselines, your time and your moeny isnt worth dollar for dollar a young persons dollar, I would say it's worth about 3x less actually. So you can keep threatening to leave or take your old money elsewhere but cruiselines know better. They will continue creating ships that specifically target young people both in design and activities, over time seniors will be phased out on their own and clue in. 

As much as you have previously gone on about the cost of a cruise and being able to afford a $2500 cruise once every two years or so, and no discretionary spending onboard, I will venture a guess that our 60 year old money is dollar for dollar worth just as much or more than your 30 year old ad exec money.

Here's why: we cruise more, longer and spend onboard... And, no offense (I'm not judging your cruise) but our cruises don't come in at $2,500.

[Guest ldtr]

35 minutes ago, jwattle said:

As much as you have previously gone on about the cost of a cruise and being able to afford a $2500 cruise once every two years or so, and no discretionary spending onboard, I will venture a guess that our 60 year old money is dollar for dollar worth just as much or more than your 30 year old ad exec money.

Here's why: we cruise more, longer and spend onboard... And, no offense (I'm not judging your cruise) but our cruises don't come in at $2,500.

It is not a matter of one groups dollar being worth more than another groups dollar.

 

Every business has a marketing/sales plan.  Every business tracks the demographics of its customers and makes plans for how those demographics need to change.  Take a look at just about of every business out there and how many aim their advertising at the over 60 age group (out side of Medicare, independent living housing, and funeral insurance).  

 

The reality is that if you are building a growing business for the future you need to appeal to a number of younger people (younger meaning not elder, one can draw the line separating the two groups where ever they want).  If they feel that their customer mix is leaning to far in either direction they will make changes to bring demographics into whatever their business plan calls for.

 

That does not mean that all of a sudden they are going to put an age limit on cruises, but it does mean that they will make changes that they think will appeal to the demographics mix that they want.  That means that some current customers may choose to go elsewhere.

[2 cruises a year]

On 10/9/2022 at 4:45 PM, ldtr said:

 

The biggest issue with age is that sooner or later they stop cruising.  With an average age of 60 odds are that you will loose the half that is older than 60 within 20 years.  Since cruising is trying to be an expanding market  they need to constantly be attracting younger customers that will cruise for longer.  If the average age is increasing for a line the more their passenger base is subject to timing out, as well as it becomes less attractive to new passengers that they need to attract.

 

Or to put it another way a company that is increasing market share in a shrinking market is eventually doomed to failure.  The last buggy whip manufacturer had great market share, made a great product, until they too went out of business.

 

Never said anything about revenue per cabin.  But Market watch does report the market share of each cruise line in both revenue and passengers, which when combined would give one a ratio that would give a  good indication of relative revenue per passenger. Though one needs to also adjust by things like average cruise length when comparing cruise lines (the main reason HAL ratio is higher than Celebrity I believe)

 

For example

 

All of these ratios are down compared to 2019 when this group was pretty much in the 2.0 range

Princess 5.9% passengers  8.7% revenue   Ratio 1.47

Celebrity 3.9% passengers 6.1% revenue   Ratio 1.56

HAL   2.8% passengers  4.6% revenue  Ratio 1.64

 

Similarly one the family mass market lines are also grouped

Carnival   18.2 % passengers   7.6% revenue    ratio .417

Royal Caribbean 19.1% passengers  12.8% revenue  ratio  .670

NCL  8.6% passengers   8.6% revenue ratio 1.0

 

The family mass market ratios are lower due to the number of children and the discounts that largely apply to 3 and 4 passengers in a cabin.  One interesting this is with 2019 data NCL would have been closer to Carnival and Royal.  Not sure if this reflects higher revenue from their ship within a ship approach or if it is an anomaly related to startup pricing and passenger numbers.

 

 

 

 

Number of sources out there

This public source lists both HAL at Princess as average age 57.  Though that tends to be lower than is stated in the purchased reports on the industry.  Those tend to have both Princess and HAL in the 60 to 61 age range, with HAL being down from 64-65 a few years ago.

 

https://emojicut.com/articles/what-is-the-average-age-of-holland-america-passenger

https://emojicut.com/articles/what-is-the-average-age-of-princess-cruise-passengers

 

As far as across the entire industry CLIA does publish the industry numbers each year

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/clia-media/research/2022/2021-1r-clia-001-overview-global.ashx

 

Which in 2021 was 47.7.

 

I can give you the names of the companies that produce commercial reports that I have access to via my investment firm.  They contain better number but are pretty much in agreement that Princess and HAL are running the oldest demographics among the mass market cruise lines.

 

There is all of this talk of we 60 year old cruisers dying off and the market drying up.

Did I miss something?  Aren't there any 40 and 50 year olds out there ageing into the 60's to take our place? There must be some 40 year olds that will be looking forward to their children being successful and moving out so that they can retire and cruise 30 or so days a year like we current 60+ year olds. 

[caribill]

5 hours ago, ldtr said:

That does not mean that all of a sudden they are going to put an age limit on cruises, but it does mean that they will make changes that they think will appeal to the demographics mix that they want.  That means that some current customers may choose to go elsewhere.

 

I do not think any of the younger people that they are marketing to will say "Hey, I will choose Princess because they are reducing benefits for loyal cruisers of any age."

[HappyTexan44]

6 hours ago, 2 cruises a year said:

There is all of this talk of we 60 year old cruisers dying off and the market drying up.

Did I miss something?  Aren't there any 40 and 50 year olds out there ageing into the 60's to take our place? There must be some 40 year olds that will be looking forward to their children being successful and moving out so that they can retire and cruise 30 or so days a year like we current 60+ year olds. 

 

This is me.  I've gone from, "Me? Cruise?  I'd be bored.   I am too independent" to planning a cruise.  We are 52 with a 12-year-old.  We aren't going on a 30-day cruise, but we are planning a very active RCI starter 5-day cruise. 

Then you add in that aging demographic.   The boomers have always been the tail that wagged the dog.    

 

ETA:  We see how well that marketing idea worked for the malls.  That may be what they are thinking, but we don't think it will work out for them.  
 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by HappyTexan44

[JF - retired RRT]

6 hours ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

See this is the point in the conversation where the line is drawn between an expert in marketing and a regular person's opinion that is simply not educated in the way companies think. I am so sorry to tell you but your dollar isn't worth the same dollar of a target market, it's just a fact. Just like Moet Chadon doesn't want certain people to consume its product, just like Abercrombie and Fitch don't want certain people in their store etc same thing goes for cruises.

 

It doesn't matter if seniors have so called "money and time to spare" cruise lines don't want it, it's tainted money basically. The fact is that image and status and the ability to invest into a younger market is worth giving up the seniors money and slowly build up the younger market and convert them. 

We don't need seniors money nor time, unlike past generations current mellenials won't have significant money saved or have money to live on like current seniors because frugality isn't sexy or cool or in style. Spending every cent you have is, look at social media its all about who got what and how much you can show. The reality is that young people will spend a lot MORE money over their time than seniors did because a lot of seniors saved or invested into real-estate which is no longer possible so modern age of marketing is all about spend spend spend not save.

 

We dont need seniors money as cruise ship expecs we need more young people to be interested in cruising, its their money we want. 

Would that be because those young "guys" have figured out how to stay young?

Or those not rich will never turn into rich? A la your Abercrombie & Fitch example.

[wowzz]

7 hours ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

See this is the point in the conversation where the line is drawn between an expert in marketing and a regular person's opinion that is simply not educated in the way companies think. I am so sorry to tell you but your dollar isn't worth the same dollar of a target market, it's just a fact. Just like Moet Chadon doesn't want certain people to consume its product, just like Abercrombie and Fitch don't want certain people in their store etc same thing goes for cruises.

 

It doesn't matter if seniors have so called "money and time to spare" cruise lines don't want it, it's tainted money basically. The fact is that image and status and the ability to invest into a younger market is worth giving up the seniors money and slowly build up the younger market and convert them. 

We don't need seniors money nor time, unlike past generations current mellenials won't have significant money saved or have money to live on like current seniors because frugality isn't sexy or cool or in style. Spending every cent you have is, look at social media its all about who got what and how much you can show. The reality is that young people will spend a lot MORE money over their time than seniors did because a lot of seniors saved or invested into real-estate which is no longer possible so modern age of marketing is all about spend spend spend not save.

 

We dont need seniors money as cruise ship expecs we need more young people to be interested in cruising, its their money we want. 

Rarely have I read so much gibberish! 

[SantaFeFan]

8 hours ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

See this is the point in the conversation where the line is drawn between an expert in marketing and a regular person's opinion that is simply not educated in the way companies think. I am so sorry to tell you but your dollar isn't worth the same dollar of a target market, it's just a fact. Just like Moet Chadon doesn't want certain people to consume its product, just like Abercrombie and Fitch don't want certain people in their store etc same thing goes for cruises.

 

It doesn't matter if seniors have so called "money and time to spare" cruise lines don't want it, it's tainted money basically. The fact is that image and status and the ability to invest into a younger market is worth giving up the seniors money and slowly build up the younger market and convert them. 

We don't need seniors money nor time, unlike past generations current mellenials won't have significant money saved or have money to live on like current seniors because frugality isn't sexy or cool or in style. Spending every cent you have is, look at social media its all about who got what and how much you can show. The reality is that young people will spend a lot MORE money over their time than seniors did because a lot of seniors saved or invested into real-estate which is no longer possible so modern age of marketing is all about spend spend spend not save.

 

We dont need seniors money as cruise ship expecs we need more young people to be interested in cruising, its their money we want. 

 

It's people like FrugalVoyager who make me thankful that being in my mid 70s means I won't have to deal with the long term future that his kind of people will create. He is clearly an ageist, pretty much saying that the seniors are expendable and not worth paying attention to. That is a classic example of discrimination. 

 

Besides, with his poorly structured sentences and paragraphs, with multiple spelling and context errors, I don't believe that he is a "young marketing executive". If he actually is, I want nothing to do with the company he is working for, nor their customers. I have no desire in supporting people and companies that discriminate as blatantly as the OP does. 

[sloopsailor]

Found another FrugalVoyager comment on a thread about the value of Princess Plus. It pretty much tells everything I need to know about them.

 

"Best possible way to sail is to find a person who is on a casino comp cruise offer to get ALL your alcohol drinks at the casino and only order water/coffee/soda as an exception at the pool deck only if you must.

 

"For gratuities cancel them right away when you get on board and wifi I usually knock on my neighbour's door and ask if they are using all their devices as wifi you can use multiple devices, you can piggy back off someone's device for free.

 

"This way you are essentially eliminating $50/day all together, I am amazed people aren't doing this more often as I feel far superior and smarter doing these tips."

 

He/she is wasting everyone's time so they can have an immature level of fun. 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by sloopsailor

[DCThunder]

7 minutes ago, SantaFeFan said:

 

It's people like FrugalVoyager who make me thankful that being in my mid 70s means I won't have to deal with the long term future that his kind of people will create. He is clearly an ageist, pretty much saying that the seniors are expendable and not worth paying attention to. That is a classic example of discrimination. 

 

Besides, with his poorly structured sentences and paragraphs, with multiple spelling and context errors, I don't believe that he is a "young marketing executive". If he actually is, I want nothing to do with the company he is working for, nor their customers. I have no desire in supporting people and companies that discriminate as blatantly as the OP does. 

Well, I did learn from FV that Moet Chandon doesn't want my money, so I guess I'll have to restrict my champagne purchases to Veuve Clicquot.  I wonder if Dom Perignon is also off limits to anyone who's on the back nine of life.

[wowzz]

13 minutes ago, SantaFeFan said:

Besides, with his poorly structured sentences and paragraphs, with multiple spelling and context errors, I don't believe that he is a "young marketing executive".

He may be young, but that is about all !

In fact, some of the points he makes, do make some sense, but not in the way that he articulates them.

The Moet Chandon example for instance.  Given that I can buy Moet in my local supermarket, his argument is already lost !

[DCThunder]

Just now, wowzz said:

The Moet Chandon example for instance.  Given that I can buy Moet in my local supermarket, his argument is already lost !

You can get it at Costco too, in five-gallon buckets.

[NownZen]

8 hours ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

See this is the point in the conversation where the line is drawn between an expert in marketing and a regular person's opinion that is simply not educated in the way companies think. I am so sorry to tell you but your dollar isn't worth the same dollar of a target market, it's just a fact. Just like Moet Chadon doesn't want certain people to consume its product, just like Abercrombie and Fitch don't want certain people in their store etc same thing goes for cruises.

 

It doesn't matter if seniors have so called "money and time to spare" cruise lines don't want it, it's tainted money basically. The fact is that image and status and the ability to invest into a younger market is worth giving up the seniors money and slowly build up the younger market and convert them. 

We don't need seniors money nor time, unlike past generations current mellenials won't have significant money saved or have money to live on like current seniors because frugality isn't sexy or cool or in style. Spending every cent you have is, look at social media its all about who got what and how much you can show. The reality is that young people will spend a lot MORE money over their time than seniors did because a lot of seniors saved or invested into real-estate which is no longer possible so modern age of marketing is all about spend spend spend not save.

 

We dont need seniors money as cruise ship expecs we need more young people to be interested in cruising, its their money we want. 

This post should take a prize for the accomplishment of having everything in it wrong.

It is not worth replying to individual points since he is not capable of understanding his glaring mistakes. His arrogance shields him from seeing his ignorance.

By the way, you claim that gambling on a cruise will get you lots of money and free cruises. How is that working out for you?

 

[c-boy]

....         " I wonder if Dom Perignon is also off limits to anyone who's on the back nine of life."

 

 

                                   

 

                                    we're the only ones who can afford it/ appreciate it.

[jwattle]

9 hours ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

See this is the point in the conversation where the line is drawn between an expert in marketing and a regular person's opinion that is simply not educated in the way companies think. I am so sorry to tell you but your dollar isn't worth the same dollar of a target market, it's just a fact. Just like Moet Chadon doesn't want certain people to consume its product, just like Abercrombie and Fitch don't want certain people in their store etc same thing goes for cruises.

 

It doesn't matter if seniors have so called "money and time to spare" cruise lines don't want it, it's tainted money basically. The fact is that image and status and the ability to invest into a younger market is worth giving up the seniors money and slowly build up the younger market and convert them. 

We don't need seniors money nor time, unlike past generations current mellenials won't have significant money saved or have money to live on like current seniors because frugality isn't sexy or cool or in style. Spending every cent you have is, look at social media its all about who got what and how much you can show. The reality is that young people will spend a lot MORE money over their time than seniors did because a lot of seniors saved or invested into real-estate which is no longer possible so modern age of marketing is all about spend spend spend not save.

 

We dont need seniors money as cruise ship expecs we need more young people to be interested in cruising, its their money we want. 

Your argument holds water about as well as a woman in labor. 

As someone above said, combine your "logic" with your ideas for stealing internet like some folks steal cable, removing all the crew tips, and mooching drinks in the casino from a VIP (:because you abhor and won't gamble) and the rest your "brilliant ideas" are exposed for the puffers that they are...nothing more than  little d energy and jealousy...

[jwattle]

48 minutes ago, sloopsailor said:

Found another FrugalVoyager comment on a thread about the value of Princess Plus. It pretty much tells everything I need to know about them.

 

"Best possible way to sail is to find a person who is on a casino comp cruise offer to get ALL your alcohol drinks at the casino and only order water/coffee/soda as an exception at the pool deck only if you must.

 

"For gratuities cancel them right away when you get on board and wifi I usually knock on my neighbour's door and ask if they are using all their devices as wifi you can use multiple devices, you can piggy back off someone's device for free.

 

"This way you are essentially eliminating $50/day all together, I am amazed people aren't doing this more often as I feel far superior and smarter doing these tips."

 

He/she is wasting everyone's time so they can have an immature level of fun. 

 

Check the timing of the posts, it looks like they're between classes 😂

[neverbeenhere]

I'm so sorry I didn't see this earlier.

 

My years in high school as the marketing director for Standard Oil  (I changed the price signs at the local gas station before my shift) taught me that most of you 80 year olds will be dead in 20 years and thank goodness the 30 year olds will still be 30.

[nini]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Rarely have I read so much gibberish! 

Thank you @wowzz!

[Kay S]

1 hour ago, SantaFeFan said:

 

 

 

Besides, with his poorly structured sentences and paragraphs, with multiple spelling and context errors, I don't believe that he is a "young marketing executive". If he actually is, I want nothing to do with the company he is working for, nor their customers. I have no desire in supporting people and companies that discriminate as blatantly as the OP does. 

Can you say troll?  I see the lad's post count is increasing, might be two dozen if he continues to "educate" us.