Advice on Transportation from Vancouver to Seattle... Apparently B2B Hawaii & Alaska Violates Jones Act!

[chengkp75]

Phone center agents frequently book these types of back to back.  It is the "compliance department" that checks against the PVSA.  This is why it takes some months before you are notified that the cruise is illegal.  If anyone wants to check whether combined cruises are legal, you need to elevate inquiries to the "compliance department" to get an accurate answer.

[martincath]

3 hours ago, CruiszBug said:

We currently have a one-way rental car reserved from Vancouver to Seattle. As well as two hotel rooms. One in Vancouver. One in Seattle. I am hedging my bets all over the place, lol! If Amtrak starts back during the morning we will stay in a hotel near King Street station in Seattle. For now, my current plan involves us disembarking Ovation at Canada place and staying the night at Pan Pacific right there at the port. Then I must get up at the crack of dawn to take the light rail from the waterfront to the Vancouver airport to pick up our rental car. Driving back to Pan Pacific to load up our luggage and our special needs daughter. We will have to stow her wheelchair as part of the luggage which has me worried for the space it will take up... Four + hours on the road to Seattle. Drop everyone off at Pier 91. Return the car to the local rental agency and Uber back to Pier 91! Get onboard and find an adult beverage, lol....

Unless the morning train bumps its schedule by a couple of hours later, you will never make the morning Amtrak on disembarkation day - in the past it left before most ships even tied up, let alone started unloading pax, and all the thruline coaches and the evening train have stuck to the same slots as pre-Covid so odds are extremely high so will the AM train (it runs all the way, so has to fit around other train schedules all the way down to Eugene OR, many dependencies).

 

I think your car plan is sensible, but do it the day you disembark - as much as Vancouver is nicer than Seattle to hang out it, getting yourselves down there ASAP makes a lot more sense. A breakdown, a big delay at the border crossing the next morning and you could miss the cruise! If you can only find one-way cars from YVR, rather than double-back I'd suggest a cab - accessible taxis here are all vans with boatloads of luggage space, and can handle a wheelchair or scooter via ramps. Same price as any other vehicle - metered to the airport, ballpark CAD$35, and you'll save an hour - frankly well worth the spend to save multiple people's time IMO.

 

It may seem counterintuitive, but renting the car for 2 days may actually be cheaper as well as giving you far more options of rental office - one way, same day, with still-limited fleets due to all the Covid chip shortages may well be airport-airport only, but a 2 day rental usually means you can pick up and drop off downtown (which avoids a YVR surcharge that runs over 20%) and also maybe avoid drop fees. Just return the car early - you won't get a refund, but you won't have to pay for parking that way.

 

If you aren't already a Costco member, join up - the savings on car rental for this trip might even pay for the membership!

[CruiszBug]

1 hour ago, martincath said:

Unless the morning train bumps its schedule by a couple of hours later, you will never make the morning Amtrak on disembarkation day - in the past it left before most ships even tied up, let alone started unloading pax, and all the thruline coaches and the evening train have stuck to the same slots as pre-Covid so odds are extremely high so will the AM train (it runs all the way, so has to fit around other train schedules all the way down to Eugene OR, many dependencies).

 

I think your car plan is sensible, but do it the day you disembark - as much as Vancouver is nicer than Seattle to hang out it, getting yourselves down there ASAP makes a lot more sense. A breakdown, a big delay at the border crossing the next morning and you could miss the cruise! If you can only find one-way cars from YVR, rather than double-back I'd suggest a cab - accessible taxis here are all vans with boatloads of luggage space, and can handle a wheelchair or scooter via ramps. Same price as any other vehicle - metered to the airport, ballpark CAD$35, and you'll save an hour - frankly well worth the spend to save multiple people's time IMO.

 

It may seem counterintuitive, but renting the car for 2 days may actually be cheaper as well as giving you far more options of rental office - one way, same day, with still-limited fleets due to all the Covid chip shortages may well be airport-airport only, but a 2 day rental usually means you can pick up and drop off downtown (which avoids a YVR surcharge that runs over 20%) and also maybe avoid drop fees. Just return the car early - you won't get a refund, but you won't have to pay for parking that way.

 

If you aren't already a Costco member, join up - the savings on car rental for this trip might even pay for the membership!

Yes! I am a Costco member and you have to either pick up from an airport or drop-off at an airport, that is why I was picking it up at YVR so I could drop off downtown near Pier 91. Thank you for all the good ideas! You are definitely mirroring my fears of problems at the Border crossing, etc... And I really don't like the idea of waiting around until twilight to jump on the Amtrak Cascades heading south. Arriving after dark and trying to check in late to our hotel, sounds stressful and tiring as well...

Edited January 4, 2023 by CruiszBug

[Merion_Mom]

@CruiszBug It will be  no solace to you, I know, but this happens (the bookings and the postings on this board) EVERY YEAR.  It's not new.  😞 

[CruiszBug]

1 minute ago, Merion_Mom said:

@CruiszBug It will be  no solace to you, I know, but this happens (the bookings and the postings on this board) EVERY YEAR.  It's not new.  😞 

Thanks for that, Merion_Mom! Just when you start to think you know what you are doing, something like this happens and you learn something new! I thought I knew the PVSA ... but did NOT know about B2B being treated like one long cruise. It seems rather pointless to make travellers jump off one ship to get on another in order to continue their journey. I'll bet changes will be forthcoming to modify this due to the current nature of the cruise industry!

[LeeW]

Quick Shuttle picks up from pier and then several hotels before heading to the US.  You get to take all your luggage off the bus and have it scanned at the border.  Couple of stops, including casino on US side and some downtown hotels and ends at Seatac Airport.  Left at 9 when we took it and total time to airport was around 5 hours.  

 

The problem we have had with car rentals is that Avis northbound has no dropoff charge but southbound was over $100.  So we rent going north and bus going south if we are flying into Seatac.

 

We have also taken 2 day Princess cruises from Seattle to Vancouver, stayed a few days and then taken a different ship south to LA.  Also have take ship from Seattle to Vancouver, stayed a few days and then taken Vancouver to Whittier Alaska cruise - you can't stay on the same ship due to PVSA but can switch ships.

[Biker19]

7 hours ago, CruiszBug said:

It seems rather pointless to make travellers jump off one ship to get on another in order to continue their journey.

I’m rare cases RCI will do that for you- a few years ago about a dozen people on Ovation were told their B2B violated the PVSA during the sailing. They were taken off the ship in Victoria, Canada, put up in a hotel, taken to Vancouver privately the next day so they continue their journey (Hawaii->Vancouver-> Seattle). 

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, CruiszBug said:

I'll bet changes will be forthcoming to modify this due to the current nature of the cruise industry!

I doubt the cruise lines have money sitting around "in the current nature" of the industry, to pay for lobbying Congress to change the PVSA.  Considering the past poor performance of exemptions (lobbied for Puerto Rico for 10 years, and after getting the exemption, only one line started regular service one way from PR to the mainland, and that collapsed after about a year), and the statements the industry has made in the past that they don't see any benefit to their bottom line from seeking exemptions or changes to the PVSA, they are not actively working for it.

 

While it seems to be a big concern of CC members, who are die hard cruisers and tend to create exotic itineraries with B2B cruises, the real numbers impacted by these types of PVSA violations is really small.

[twangster]

8 hours ago, CruiszBug said:

Thanks for that, Merion_Mom! Just when you start to think you know what you are doing, something like this happens and you learn something new! I thought I knew the PVSA ... but did NOT know about B2B being treated like one long cruise. It seems rather pointless to make travellers jump off one ship to get on another in order to continue their journey. I'll bet changes will be forthcoming to modify this due to the current nature of the cruise industry!

 

No change will be coming any time soon.  Like many laws the implementation has evolved over time to adjust for attempts to evade the law.  

 

If it was so easy to piece together a longer cruise by making it multiple segments to evade the law then cruise lines would do just that, selling cruises that evade the PVSA by breaking them into multiple segmented bookings. 

 

CBP sees past that thinly veiled marketing attempt by cruise lines and considers the initial embarkation point and final disembarkation point for a ticketed passenger as the end-to-end journey.  Without a night off the ship between two cruise bookings on the same ship it is exactly what CBP looks for as an attempt to evade the intent of the PVSA.  

[smokeybandit]

RC should just offer to add $778 to a cruise fare to pay the PVSA violation fine

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

RC should just offer to add $778 to a cruise fare to pay the PVSA violation fine

Knowingly violating the act could get the ship banned from boarding passengers in the US.

[ccotting]

This all sounds so complicated to me.... We are doing a back to back starting Vancouver ending Honolulu, with the roundtrip Alaska.   It is with the smaller ship though.  Had you considered that?

 

[Jasukkie]

This happened to us on Radiance in October, sailing from Honolulu to Vancouver. We booked the next leg on to Los Angeles, never thinking of the PVSA rules. We were fairly compensated but ended up spending more money recreating the missed trip as an air/land vacation. Cruising definitely is a bargain compared to that.

 

 

[CruiszBug]

23 hours ago, taglovestocruise said:

We stayed at the Pan Pacific in Oct. 2022. You can get a one way car rental Vancouver to Seattle from under $180.00. A 7 passenger Van one way runs about $225.00, drop off would be at SEATAC.  That is for one day rental.    Have you thought about Quantum Honolulu to Vancouver, April 28th , spending three nights in Vancouver and then boarding Ovation Vancouver to Seattle May 11th.  We did the exact opposite in Sep/Oct 2022 and it worked out great. happy cruising

No 7 passenger vans that I can find? I'm looking at about $300 one way with a Dodge Durango SUV. Pan Pacific is about $400/night. I tried to switch to Quantum, but I would have to cancel Aulani pre-trip and pay penalties to Celebrity plus lose what I already paid them. So cost prohibitive to switch, but I thought it was a really good idea!

23 hours ago, neverbeenhere said:

Quick Shuttle

Quick Shuttle is not picking up or dropping off where I need to go, despite what their website says. That would have been my choice if they were continuing to pick up at Canada Place and drop off at Pier 91. But no...

16 hours ago, LeeW said:

Quick Shuttle picks up from pier and then several hotels before heading to the US.  You get to take all your luggage off the bus and have it scanned at the border.  Couple of stops, including casino on US side and some downtown hotels and ends at Seatac Airport.  Left at 9 when we took it and total time to airport was around 5 hours.  

 

The problem we have had with car rentals is that Avis northbound has no dropoff charge but southbound was over $100.  So we rent going north and bus going south if we are flying into Seatac.

 

We have also taken 2 day Princess cruises from Seattle to Vancouver, stayed a few days and then taken a different ship south to LA.  Also have take ship from Seattle to Vancouver, stayed a few days and then taken Vancouver to Whittier Alaska cruise - you can't stay on the same ship due to PVSA but can switch ships.

Quick Shuttle does not pick up from the pier or drop off where they say on the website. I tried to book it online and called their phone number. (Bah, COVID! Shaking fist...)

8 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

RC should just offer to add $778 to a cruise fare to pay the PVSA violation fine

That one gave me a chuckle! 

[taglovestocruise]

1 hour ago, CruiszBug said:

. That would have been my choice if they were continuing to pick up at Canada Place and drop off at Pier 91. But no...

 

It could be the distance, Canada Place to Pier 91 is about 600 miles round trip and passports would be needed😀. happy cruising

[volk904]

We had to get from Vancouver to Seattle after a cruise in June.

Our first choice was Amtrak but they were not running yet.  Should be this year or that was the plan I heard.  We took a bus from Vancouver to Seattle after our cruise in May.  We decided on Bus. Amtrack runs a bus from the rail station to the Seattle rail station but we decided on Quick Coach. It picks up right at the cruise port and offers stops at the cruise port, downtown convention center that we used and SeaTac Airport.    Not a bad trip. Took about 3 1/2 hours but 45 min was the delay at the U.S. customs station because 3 buses arrived together.  It was not expensive.  They have a website.  I am a bigger guy so I just bought 2 seats. 

[DallasGuy75219]

On 1/3/2023 at 9:16 PM, CruiszBug said:

 I'll bet changes will be forthcoming to modify this due to the current nature of the cruise industry!

The minimal number of passengers that the PVSA prevents from taking their desired B2Bs, in the context of all cruise passengers to/from US ports, would not justify the lobbying expense that the cruiselines would have to incur.   Not that the cruiselines have piles of money laying around to spend on lobbying right now anyway.

[twangster]

Foreign companies operating foreign flagged ships who pay very little US tax don't have tremendous lobbying power.

 

For the same reason they received zero in bailout money during the pandemic they don't have a leg to stand on to lobby for change in US law.

 

With 332 million people in the US Congress is not going to put a lot of effort or spend millions to revise law impacting a few hundred people every year, some of which who aren't even US citizens, just so a foreign company operating a foreign flagged cruise ship paying little US tax can sell those few hundred people a very specific vacation.  

 

Royal Caribbean is a Liberian company.  Their ships are flagged in the Bahamas so they don't have to pay US tax on those assets.  Having a headquarters in Miami doesn't make them a US company.  

 

Cruise lines know the current setup is a license to print money while evading US taxation.  They don't seek change because they know change will come with other conditions that will break their golden egg.

[CruiszBug]

I don't know about anyone else but I feel I have gotten a real education about PVSA from this thread! Thank you to all the knowledgeable people who responded to this.

 

It looks like I will keep my original plan to fly to Hawaii and stay at Aulani for a few days. Board Ovation for the Hawaii transpacific. Disembark for a day and board Celebrity in Seattle. I just need to decide whether to stay the night at Pan Pacific in Vancouver, or get our tail feathers to Seattle and stay the night in Pioneer Square.  I am thinking about taking the Amtrak bus since it will end near our hotel in Seattle. But then I still need transportation to Pier 91. So I am narrowing my choices and feeling more confident that our trip will still be magical if not a little convoluted! 🙃

[CruiszBug]

I must also mention for those who do not remember us from several years back on our first trip to Alaska and our challenges/obstacles...

We are travelling with our special needs daughter in a wheelchair and her nurse. We carry approximately 20+ bags. (First trip was over 30 because she was on a ventilator with oxygen.) We do bring a dolly to load bags on so one person rolls two large suitcases with 2 smaller ones on top. Nurse puts duffle and hangs bags on back of wheelchair while carrying a back pack. And I roll the dolly with our "jenga-packed" bags... This is why I am trying to not have to move/re-pack more than we must!

[Jasukkie]

Have you considered a one night hotel stay in Vancouver and leaving on the Crown Princess for Alaska the next day? I can't imagine the logistics of moving 20+ bags to Seattle. Do you fly private? I can't imagine that with the airlines either. 

[DallasGuy75219]

7 hours ago, twangster said:

Foreign companies operating foreign flagged ships who pay very little US tax don't have tremendous lobbying power.

 

For the same reason they received zero in bailout money during the pandemic they don't have a leg to stand on to lobby for change in US law.

 

With 332 million people in the US Congress is not going to put a lot of effort or spend millions to revise law impacting a few hundred people every year, some of which who aren't even US citizens, just so a foreign company operating a foreign flagged cruise ship paying little US tax can sell those few hundred people a very specific vacation.  

 

Royal Caribbean is a Liberian company.  Their ships are flagged in the Bahamas so they don't have to pay US tax on those assets.  Having a headquarters in Miami doesn't make them a US company.  

 

Cruise lines know the current setup is a license to print money while evading US taxation.  They don't seek change because they know change will come with other conditions that will break their golden egg.

The cruise lines were lucky to get a waiver in 2021 to do Alaskan cruises without a stop in Canada.  That was the work of Alaska Congresspeople solely to get tourism dollars back flowing into the Alaska cruise ports, not for the benefit of the cruiselines. 

[CruiszBug]

34 minutes ago, Jasukkie said:

Have you considered a one night hotel stay in Vancouver and leaving on the Crown Princess for Alaska the next day? I can't imagine the logistics of moving 20+ bags to Seattle. Do you fly private? I can't imagine that with the airlines either. 

We fly domestic airlines with everyone in the loop... airport, TSA, airline. It is rather amusing when we show up to the gate and they think we haven't already checked our bags... We make sure not to impact other travelers by taking up more than our allotted space. Four people, four overhead carry-ons. Medical equipment underneath seats. The rest goes in a rack behind the last seat in the galley. Wheelchair and dolly are gate-checked with the understanding that they be returned to us at the next gate. We get a receipt to ensure this.  We also use public transportation such as light rail, subways. Very hard to find HA taxis in many cities we have visited.

[Jasukkie]

4 minutes ago, CruiszBug said:

We fly domestic airlines with everyone in the loop... airport, TSA, airline. It is rather amusing when we show up to the gate and they think we haven't already checked our bags... We make sure not to impact other travelers by taking up more than our allotted space. Four people, four overhead carry-ons. Medical equipment underneath seats. The rest goes in a rack behind the last seat in the galley. Wheelchair and dolly are gate-checked with the understanding that they be returned to us at the next gate. We get a receipt to ensure this.  We also use public transportation such as light rail, subways. Very hard to find HA taxis in many cities we have visited.

I bow down to your logistics, that's impressive! 

[bigeck]

I've now changed to Quantum for Alaska. That gives me 4 days to spend in Seattle and Vancouver before I get on Ovation to Hawaii.

When I was doing this, the agent had no clue why.

If they are selling cruises affected with the Pvsa, I think they should have flagged it up on the computer or at least give them staff training.

Not everyone is on CC. Although, this has happened to me before, thanks everyone who drew this to my attention

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by bigeck