In-person muster drills?

[RocketMan275]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I'm sorry, little confused here.  What farcical training are you talking about?  The safety briefing you feel is so important?  If you can do the safety briefing via video, your main complaint about the in person muster goes away.  It reverts to realistic training for mustering, and you can stand there during the drill and listen to nothing.

Actually, I have several complaints.

Yes, the training at the muster point is a farce since it is very difficult to see and hear.

Yes, that training can be replaced by watching the video.

But, then, why should passengers be forced to stand at attention for an indefinate amount of time? 

 

Once they have demonstrated the ability to find the muster station, which is satisfied by the emuster, there's no reason to keep them at the station.

 

 

Second, I notice you have avoided answering my question about why Royal and Carnival consider the emuster to be superior to the inpersonmuster?

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by RocketMan275

[CruiseMH]

Without reading the whole thread, there are only two important things in an emergency.

 

1. the passenger has to find/know his muster station

2. he must know how to properly wear the life jacket.

 

Both can be easily checked without having to be at the muster station for a long time.

Watch the video,go with your life jacket on to your muster station,maybe answer one or two questions from the crew(about the content of the safety video) and thats it.

 

 

[PATRLR]

14 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

Without reading the whole thread, there are only two important things in an emergency.

 

1. the passenger has to find/know his muster station

2. he must know how to properly wear the life jacket.

I think you missed the most important thing:  The crew is properly trained for emergencies. 

[RocketMan275]

15 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

I think you missed the most important thing:  The crew is properly trained for emergencies. 

It isn't the passengers responsibility to function as training aides for the crew.

[wolft927]

6 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It isn't the passengers responsibility to function as training aides for the crew.

Reading all of these as Ex crew on cruise ships makes me laugh!!!!!! 

[CJANDH]

5 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It isn't the passengers responsibility to function as training aides for the crew.

Amen. Surely the bright minds running the cruise lines can find a way to train the crew without the passengers. The interaction with the passengers in an in-person muster is not a very good simulation of the crowd control issues the crew will face in a real emergency with panicked passengers. Also, why do the crew need to train on this process every week (or less on 3/4 day cruises)?

[wolft927]

Just now, CJANDH said:

Amen. Surely the bright minds running the cruise lines can find a way to train the crew without the passengers. The interaction with the passengers in an in-person muster is not a very good simulation of the crowd control issues the crew will face in a real emergency with panicked passengers. Also, why do the crew need to train on this process every week (or less on 3/4 day cruises)?

Omg everyone is proving my point about not knowing anything about why passenger drills are conducted 

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

Omg everyone is proving my point about not knowing anything about why passenger drills are conducted 

If that is the case, then it is the fault of the cruise line for not sharing that information with the passengers.  I suspect that the cruise line doesn't wish to tell their passengers that they're only training aides for the crew. 

[CJANDH]

5 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

Omg everyone is proving my point about not knowing anything about why passenger drills are conducted 

I would say that the majority of posters agree that the e muster, as it has evolved over time, is at least as good a way to train the passengers, if not better. I was suggesting that a better way to train the crew might be worth pursuing.

[wolft927]

13 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If that is the case, then it is the fault of the cruise line for not sharing that information with the passengers.  I suspect that the cruise line doesn't wish to tell their passengers that they're only training aides for the crew. 

First of all the boat drill for passengers on embarkation is for the passengers by law! Crew also must complete a crew only boat drill every 7 days, which also include any one of the emergency situations that may occur, coda Alpha, Oscar etc…that drill lasts anywhere from an hour to 2 hours depending on the simulation. 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

 

 

But here is the real question: why does Royal and Carnival consider the emuster to be superior to the inpersonmuster?

Go to this thread, and ask why the e-muster or the old fashioned muster. They are looking for questions for the CEOs of 4 cruise lines including Carnival, Royal Caribbean, and Norwegian.. I have already asked, but if someone else asks the same thing, maybe there is a better chance of the question being answered.

 

 

[RocketMan275]

5 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

First of all the boat drill for passengers on embarkation is for the passengers by law! Crew also must complete a crew only boat drill every 7 days, which also include any one of the emergency situations that may occur, coda Alpha, Oscar etc…that drill lasts anywhere from an hour to 2 hours depending on the simulation. 

I realize musters are required by law.  That isn't the point.  No one in this thread is avocating abolishing the muster.   The inpersonmuster provides little or no safety training for the passengers since it is difficult to hear the presentations or witness the demonstrations.  The emuster provides the passenger with all the required information and requires the passenger demonstrate their ability to find their muster station.  Since Royal and Carnival are employing the emuster, it obviously fulfills the legal requirements in a way that provides superior training over the inpersonmuster.

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

But, then, why should passengers be forced to stand at attention for an indefinate amount of time?

To simulate what would happen in a real emergency.  Remember a concept called "realistic training"?

 

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Second, I notice you have avoided answering my question about why Royal and Carnival consider the emuster to be superior to the inpersonmuster?

How can I answer that since I don't know the credentials of the person saying it, or the metrics on which they based it.  From the article, it seems that they are also focused on the safety briefing being more "understood" in the e-muster format, and it improves the "passenger experience" (read this to be: more comfortable).

[chengkp75]

53 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It isn't the passengers responsibility to function as training aides for the crew.

It is the passengers' responsibility to learn to work with, and obey the orders of the crew.  Cause when there is an emergency, there will be orders, and some folks' feelings will obviously be hurt, based on the comments here.

[wolft927]

6 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I realize musters are required by law.  That isn't the point.  No one in this thread is avocating abolishing the muster.   The inpersonmuster provides little or no safety training for the passengers since it is difficult to hear the presentations or witness the demonstrations.  The emuster provides the passenger with all the required information and requires the passenger demonstrate their ability to find their muster station.  Since Royal and Carnival are employing the emuster, it obviously fulfills the legal requirements in a way that provides superior training over the inpersonmuster.

 

I say do both!!!! 

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The inpersonmuster provides little or no safety training for the passengers since it is difficult to hear the presentations or witness the demonstrations.

This is moot, since the safety briefing does not have to be part of the in person muster.

 

9 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

requires the passenger demonstrate their ability to find their muster station.

Actually, if you read SOLAS, it does not say that passengers are required to find their muster stations, it says they are to be mustered at their stations.

 

10 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Since Royal and Carnival are employing the emuster, it obviously fulfills the legal requirements in a way that provides superior training over the inpersonmuster.

Yes, it fulfills the legal requirement under the conditional approval of the e-muster.  There is no data to show it provides superior training.

[chengkp75]

50 minutes ago, CJANDH said:

The interaction with the passengers in an in-person muster is not a very good simulation of the crowd control issues the crew will face in a real emergency with panicked passengers.

And, upon what personal experience do you know that the crowd management would be significantly different in an emergency?  Is this based on experience, knowledge of past emergencies, or merely a "feeling" ?  Because I've stated a few examples up thread of real emergencies where the muster went much as the drill did.

 

53 minutes ago, CJANDH said:

Also, why do the crew need to train on this process every week (or less on 3/4 day cruises)?

Why do your local firefighters train on a weekly basis (sometimes daily)?  Why does the Navy train at damage control, and firefighting on a weekly basis?  Why does the crew do a fire and boat drill weekly?  Muscle memory.  The more realistic training is, and the more it is repeated, the more the proper response becomes second nature and doesn't require conscious thought to do the right thing.  How else do you train someone to run into a fire?  How else do you train someone to disregard their own safety to help another person get to safety (what the crew do during a muster)?  You question why the crew train so often, but then want the best trained crew possible, in case there is a real emergency.  I did over 2000 drills over my career, and I was still learning on the last one.

[PATRLR]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

It isn't the passengers responsibility to function as training aides for the crew.

Did I say it was the passenger's responsibility?  No, I did not.  My comment was nothing more than an addition to @CruiseMH 's list.  Do you disagree?  Do you believe it is not important to have a properly trained crew? 

I know you are obsessed with this issue, but not everything said here in this thread is about you.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

This is moot, since the safety briefing does not have to be part of the in person muster.

 

Actually, if you read SOLAS, it does not say that passengers are required to find their muster stations, it says they are to be mustered at their stations.

 

Yes, it fulfills the legal requirement under the conditional approval of the e-muster.  There is no data to show it provides superior training.

Then why is there a safety briefing at the muster station?

Finding and mustering are a distinction without a difference.

Nor is there any data that inpersonmuster provides superior training.

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

To simulate what would happen in a real emergency.  Remember a concept called "realistic training"?

 

How can I answer that since I don't know the credentials of the person saying it, or the metrics on which they based it.  From the article, it seems that they are also focused on the safety briefing being more "understood" in the e-muster format, and it improves the "passenger experience" (read this to be: more comfortable).

If the safety briefing is to be understood, then it must be heard.

It would seem that to be an important objective.

You do seem to believe that improving the passenger experience is something different from improving the safety briefing.

[wcook]

Attention passengers: There will be a muster drill today sometime between 3:00 and 4:00 pm. Note that the primary purpose of the drill is to train the crew and we want it to be as realistic as possible. Think how you would behave during an actual emergency. Will you panic? Be a little hysterical? Is there a chance you will forget and go to the wrong assembly point? Then that’s how you should behave today. Let’s get the crew trained, and have some fun in the process. 

[rj59]

Regardless of all the arguments, the more interesting question posed by the La Lida Loca video is 'are you a single-issue cruiser?' and would the in-person drill be enough for you to go to all the other lines that don't require it. Pre-Covid, the worst muster drills were on HAL, because you had to stand shoulder-to-shoulder packed outside on the promenade deck with everyone, standing for over half an hour or more, and the aftermath was just as unpleasant, with thousands of people waiting for elevators or going slowly up stairs, and I endured it because I loved the line then, but wouldn't put up with again, since their experience has degraded so much over the past decade. I think for NCL, it will depend on my upcoming 2 cruises on how it's handled--on my last cruise I was crammed in the pub with too many people, so I felt claustrophobic and miserable. But if I'm seated in the dining room or theater I'll endure it, if the crew is respectful and not pushy or rude, but it will definitely be a strong negative starting out the cruise, and while it might not prevent me from going on future NCL cruises, I know that I won't buy any CruiseNext deposits, as I did on the first post-refurb Joy cruise that thrilled me so much. To me it would be the same as if Delta mandated pat-downs or bag searches of all passengers prior to boarding, which might increase safety, but would anger everyone and start every trip off on a sour note, even more galling when all their competitors don't do such things. The problem I see with fuller ships and many people new to cruising and many people who don't speak English well is that people are blowing off the muster station visit and mandatory videos, requiring annoying announcements and nagging and warnings all afternoon, but the better solutions seem rather simple, such as a room card not activated until muster station visit or a stateroom tv locked to the safety video until confirmation of watching it. 

[FlGoodShips]

Just off the Encore...

In person muster drill.

It was quick. Probably 15 min. and done. 

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This is moot, since the safety briefing does not have to be part of the in person muster.

 

Actually, if you read SOLAS, it does not say that passengers are required to find their muster stations, it says they are to be mustered at their stations.

 

Yes, it fulfills the legal requirement under the conditional approval of the e-muster.  There is no data to show it provides superior training.

Maybe you should have capitalized the word CONDITIONAL.  None of us know for sure if the new drill will still be approved if there is no official Covid crisis.

[DOT Dudet]

I view the muster drill as the time to meet the crew-member responsible for my life in an emergency. Size up/meet cruisers that might be in my lifeboat. Never want to need to know but....

[soccermommy]

In less than 2 weeks, I will be on the Breakaway with DH, DD, SIL and a very active 22 month old toddler. I shudder to think about attending a muster drill as disorganized as shown on  that La Lido Loca video. 
BUT….should anything happen on this cruise, I will be very happy to know exactly where to muster and where my family’s  lifeboat is located. Let’s face it, under the Covid rules, how many people actually took the muster seriously, much less checking out where things were located. Sure, it’s on the shipcard, but in a real emergency, for many of us, logic, clear thinking  and maybe reading directions are the first things to go overboard. The crew better be more prepared than the passengers, and I think that’s the whole point. 

I think (hope) that the crew will be better able to handle things and there will be less confusion for them as well as us. Do I prefer the e muster? Of course I do since it’s so much easier, and generally, DH and I  ( who usually cruise by ourselves) always check out our muster and lifeboat locations anyway. We’ll be on two Celebrity cruises later this year. I will be curious to see how muster drills will be handled by them later this year.

All of this reminds me of a story I heard, I forget where, of a woman who didn’t want to have her card scanned, didn’t want to waste her time with a safety briefing and just wanted someone to take her to the lifeboat. I presume she had no plans to actually muster, but  just wanted to be first on the lifeboat.
I suspect she wasn’t alone in her attitude. Is NCL overreacting, being chintzy, or just stupid? Time will tell.