Advice Regarding Booking First Business Class Flights

[lackcreativity]

We've been traveling by economy class from Baltimore/Washington/Philidelphia airports to various airports in Europe for the last ten years. It is miserable, but we have never been willing to pay what amounts to another whole cruise cost just to fly to our destination. We could have managed it financially, but it would have cut back on the number of trips we have taken. 

 

Now, for the first (and only) time, I am looking at a cruise from Bangkok to Mumbai. I know I cannot manage flights of 13 plus hours at a time in coach, so I am considering business class. Sadly, our credit card of choice is a cash back card, so there is no big stash of points somewhere just waiting to be used. We could even include New York and Boston as starting points, if that would help. We don't need to have the most luxurious experience, but there must be a flat surface on which to sleep. 

 

My early research leaves me with the impression that this will cost five to six thousand dollars for each of us. If that is the case, then we have a decision to make. Are there any clues that you more experienced business class travelers can share as I continue to investigate options for this potential trip in late 2024? I would appreciate any hints about finding the best fare. 

[mahdnc]

I work for a company that is headquartered in Japan.  I am also shopping for air to Singapore and from Hong Kong for our December cruise.  I can tell you that Business Class (J) fares  across the Pacific are ridiculously high in this post-COVID era.  

[klfrodo]

20 minutes ago, lackcreativity said:

We've been traveling by economy class from Baltimore/Washington/Philidelphia airports to various airports in Europe for the last ten years. It is miserable, but we have never been willing to pay what amounts to another whole cruise cost just to fly to our destination. We could have managed it financially, but it would have cut back on the number of trips we have taken. 

 

Now, for the first (and only) time, I am looking at a cruise from Bangkok to Mumbai. I know I cannot manage flights of 13 plus hours at a time in coach, so I am considering business class. Sadly, our credit card of choice is a cash back card, so there is no big stash of points somewhere just waiting to be used. We could even include New York and Boston as starting points, if that would help. We don't need to have the most luxurious experience, but there must be a flat surface on which to sleep. 

 

My early research leaves me with the impression that this will cost five to six thousand dollars for each of us. If that is the case, then we have a decision to make. Are there any clues that you more experienced business class travelers can share as I continue to investigate options for this potential trip in late 2024? I would appreciate any hints about finding the best fare. 

Price your flights departing from Canada. So, for S&G price Toronto to Bangkok and see what you come up with. Price various cities.

I was headed to Africa a few years back. Business out of Seattle was $9K. Vancouver was only $4.5K.

For a $4K savings it might be worth it to take economy up to Toronto, spend the night and take the business flight the next day.

[the mice]

50 minutes ago, mahdnc said:

I work for a company that is headquartered in Japan.  I am also shopping for air to Singapore and from Hong Kong for our December cruise.  I can tell you that Business Class (J) fares  across the Pacific are ridiculously high in this post-COVID era.  

We will need flights next February to Bangkok and return from Seoul to the NYC area.   Prices and miles required for business class flights are crazy now due to airlines switching to dynamic pricing for awards, and demand being very high post-COVID.

 

As an example. I had booked business class award flights in 2021 for a cruise that was COVID-canceled: NY to Singapore (1 stop on Cathay Pacific for 70K each) and home from Tokyo (nonstop on Japan Airlines for 60K each)  so total of 260K for the 2 of us.  Taxes/fess were low, too.   Fabulous deal.  And the award flights were easy to book on my own, too.  

Now we are flying to Amsterdam in June and for business class one way we are using about 2x the miles as compared to pre-COVID or even in fall 2022.  It is 270K miles for 2 on this 8 hour flight. Cash price on United is over $5k for the 2 tickets and Delta, KLM even higher.  Yes, it is crazy.  I keep monitoring prices, awards, etc. and they are just increasing.  And availability is much harder to find now.

 

I will definitely explore all options for a positioning flight - we flew a cheap economy flight to Vancouver to get business class awards for our Australia cruise in 2018.  So thanks @klfrodo for that reminder.

 

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, lackcreativity said:

Sadly, our credit card of choice is a cash back card, so there is no big stash of points somewhere just waiting to be used.

 

You chose to take your rebate (which is what all rewards card ultimately provide) in the form of cash rather than the alternative currency of some kind of loyalty points.  And rather than accumulate that rebate, as you would with points, you probably just spent it as money in your account.  Not that a cash rebate card is a bad choice - it's just that you have to recognize the advantages and disadvantages of each kind of rewards card.  The cash-back cards have the advantage of a known constant return.  The disadvantages are that you a) can't leverage cash to get a higher rate of return and b) few have the discipline to take those rebates and put them into some kind of savings plan - for those bigger trips.

 

 

1 hour ago, lackcreativity said:

We could even include New York and Boston as starting points, if that would help. We don't need to have the most luxurious experience, but there must be a flat surface on which to sleep. 

 

Do your diligence on the inflight product of the various carriers.  All business class seats are not alike.

 

1 hour ago, lackcreativity said:

My early research leaves me with the impression that this will cost five to six thousand dollars for each of us.

 

Well, the first thing is that you won't be finding out schedules or prices for a late 2024 flight until the end of 2023 or the beginning of 2024.  So you are WAY ahead of any kind of timeline for buying tickets.

 

As a point of reference, you can find November 2023 tickets from JFK to BKK and back from BOM on Turkish for under $4k pp.

 

Another thing to note - there is no such thing as getting the best price.  Because that fact is only known in hindsight after the flight has departed.  There's no way of knowing in the time before the flight.  You can only buy what you consider to be a good price that you are content to pay.

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

2 hours ago, mahdnc said:

I work for a company that is headquartered in Japan.  I am also shopping for air to Singapore and from Hong Kong for our December cruise.  I can tell you that Business Class (J) fares  across the Pacific are ridiculously high in this post-COVID era.  

 

If you don't need top-notch product, Philippine Airlines has some of the lowest prices for TPAC biz class.  What you should also consider is taking a positioning flight from Chicago to either LAX or SFO, where you will find much more reasonable pricing than you will from ORD.  (More competition across the Big Pond).

[lackcreativity]

FlyerTalker,

 

Thanks for all the various pieces of advice. I appreciate your input. The only one that does not really apply is your information about the cash back/points credit card. My dear daughter, the very frequent traveler, has had that conversation with me, with the spreadsheet to back it up! She wheels and deals in points and we are a great source of frustration to her.

 

Our cash rewards go into a savings account, so I could mentally designate that money for this expense. It's not that we don't have the money, it's that I have never been willing to pay the cost for a more comfortable version of eight hours spent in economy class to Europe. Flying to Bangkok is a whole other experience. 

 

A World Cruise is not in our future. I guess I am considering this Bangkok to Mumbai trip as our "Trip of a Lifetime", and that could justify the cost of business class for me. I am just looking to learn a good way to do it.

 

P.S. I have tried JFK, but the lowest price I saw was for $4800 on Turkish Airlines. But then, I was just using Expedia. Do I need to go to each individual airline's website to check prices? Is there something better that Expedia? I can find my way from the East Coast to Europe without too much trouble, but the other side of the world is a new experience for me!

[Gardyloo]

I've posted about this before, so for any that have seen this pitch previously, sorry.

 

Unlike other travelers (it seems to me) cruisers tend to plan their trips far in advance (like you are, in anticipation of a trip that won't take place for 18 months or more.)  While the saying about early birds and worms has some validity, in the case of airfares the early bird is just as likely to get cats.  But if you're a cruiser/traveler who plans multiple trips way in advance, the following might be useful.

 

Two of the three big airline alliances (Oneworld and Star Alliance) have "round the world" ticket products sold by their member airlines.  (Skyteam, the third big alliance, also had "RTW" products but evidently they didn't survive the Covid pandemic.)  

 

These tickets are for travel around the world, requiring that both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans be crossed in the same direction (east to west or v.v.) and that you end in the same country where you started the ticket.  Note this is NOT necessarily your home country.  The tickets include up to 16 flight segments (takeoff and landings) and are good for a year.  Changes to the dates of the segments are free, changes to the itinerary come with a nominal fee, usually (much) less than change fees in "ordinary" tickets.  The tickets are sold for travel in economy, business and first class.  

 

The Star Alliance tickets are priced according to how many miles you fly in your itinerary, with various mileage "tiers" setting the price.  (The tiers are, roughly, 26,000 miles or less, 29,000, 34,000 and 39,000, with the price going up accordingly.)  While Oneworld has a similar mileage-based RTW product, its big seller is the "Oneworld Explorer" which is priced according to how many continents you touch or overfly in the course of the trip, from 3 (say Europe, North America and Asia) to 6 (all of them, including the "Southwest Pacific" continent, i.e. Australia/NZ/South Pacific.)  Within those limits, one can backtrack and zigzag to one's heart's content, provided you cross the next ocean in the same direction as the last one.  

 

Now here's the big deal.  The prices for these tickets are hugely different depending on where the trip begins and ends.  For example, a business class Oneworld Explorer ticket good for travel over three continents carries a base price (before taxes and fees) of US$10,426 if travel begins and ends in the USA.  The same ticket costs $5136 (less than half as much) if travel begins and ends in Norway.  

 

Oneworld allows up to 4 flown segments within all the continents, except it allows 6 segments within North America, which includes Central America and the Caribbean.  "Surface" segments, such as a cruise from Bangkok to Mumbai, count against the total of 16, but not against the maximum "in-continent" segments.  Of course, there are plenty of additional rules, but really nothing that's a deal-breaker.  

 

You earn frequent flyer miles in the same manner that you would on ordinary tickets (but because you're flying up to 16 flights in the pointy end, the miles harvest can be significant) and baggage is included (even in economy.)  

 

So imagine this.  Let's say, just for an exercise, that between this coming winter and the Asia cruise you plan to travel someplace else within, say, North America or Europe - maybe a Caribbean cruise in the winter of 2023-24, or an Alaska cruise in the summer of 2024, or just leisure travel to California or Mexico, whatever.  

 

So sometime this coming winter, within a 12-month window of the end of your Bangkok-Mumbai cruise, you find yourselves in Norway and start a westbound RTW trip.  You've purchased the ticket anytime between now and the start date; the 12-month validity starts with the first flight, not the ticket purchase.   You fly home from Oslo, probably via London.  

 

Over the coming months, you use the ticket's six segments to travel around North America.  Use it for the Alaska cruise or the one in the Caribbean, or maybe to visit family in California or for a road trip around the red rocks national parks.  Whatever.  Then back home.

 

When it's time for the Asia cruise, you fly over the Pacific to Bangkok, maybe with stopovers in Hawaii and/or Japan, or via Hong Kong.  Do the cruise and disembark in Mumbai.  From there, it's back toward Norway, but maybe via someplace in the Middle East, or maybe Rome, or Paris, or...?  End back in Oslo before the RTW ticket turns into a pumpkin, then fly home using some of the (many thousands) of frequent flyer miles earned over the course of the RTW, or maybe start a new ticket, this time including, say, Australia, or Africa, or South America.  

 

All of this has been in the front of the plane.  Your investment (roughly $6K after taxes and fees) has paid for a couple of major international trips in business class, a lot of regional travel within North and Central America, also in the pointy end, and has left you with enough miles for a couple more international business class flights.  When my late wife and I were doing this, we'd use a paid RTW ticket in year one, then fly on miles in year two, rinse and repeat.  The six grand paid for around 20 business class flights over a two-year period, so an average of $300 per business- or first-class flight.  That's good value for Seattle to Chicago, really good value for London to Cape Town or Dallas to Sydney.  

 

Here's an imaginary 3-continent RTW route that would be valid using the Oneworld Explorer.  

 

 

This would start in Oslo, then head home via London.  Later, it includes a trip to Seattle and Alaska before returning back to Philly.  You'd then fly to Bangkok via Tokyo, then after the cruise I've included stops (if you want) in Sri Lanka and the Maldives, before returning to Oslo via Qatar, Paris and Finland.  Don't like it?  Fine, swap Costa Rica for Alaska, Singapore for Sri Lanka, whatever.  

 

Now this might not work for you, but it might be worth some "what if" planning.  Having a 3- or 5-year "travel master plan," aka bucket list, might be a good thing, and tools like this might be able to play a major role.  

[lackcreativity]

Gardyloo, 

 

Amazing! Thanks for the very detailed information. I have never heard of this product, but I will file it away for my future reference. Right now, the fly in the ointment so to speak is that I am still working (part-time) and my husband runs a small business. Our travel days are limited for now, other than one trip a year, two on a good year. Add in a few long weekends Baltimore to Boston to visit family, and that's the best we can do. 

 

 

[mchell810]

3 hours ago, lackcreativity said:

P.S. I have tried JFK, but the lowest price I saw was for $4800 on Turkish Airlines. But then, I was just using Expedia. Do I need to go to each individual airline's website to check prices? Is there something better that Expedia? I can find my way from the East Coast to Europe without too much trouble, but the other side of the world is a new experience for me!

 

Try the flight matrix.  It will show a lot options and is easy to use if you want to play with departing from different cities.  Once you see things you like you can go to the airline website for more detailed information.

 

https://matrix.itasoftware.com/search

 

[MamaFej]

I've been getting pretty good at the Points Game in recent years, with a few jaw-dropping deals.

 

Some of the Points folks I follow are:

Travel Like Tommy

Mommy Points

Max Miles Points

Jaina Anne

 

Sites like OnePointAtATime and ThePointsGuy often feature good, often short-lived deals. 

 

It sounds like the OP's daughter is also a great source of information. The points game can be frustrating, but the great deals we sometimes get make it worth it for us. I recognize that not everyone wants to deal with the hassle. 

[Zach1213]

22 hours ago, lackcreativity said:

P.S. I have tried JFK, but the lowest price I saw was for $4800 on Turkish Airlines. But then, I was just using Expedia. Do I need to go to each individual airline's website to check prices? Is there something better that Expedia? I can find my way from the East Coast to Europe without too much trouble, but the other side of the world is a new experience for me!

 

Expedia is usually pretty good/accurate with pricing. They're one of the reliable ones. BUT, I would use Expedia (or the ITA Matrix mentioned earlier) to find flights, then head over to the airline to book them. 

[lackcreativity]

13 hours ago, Zach1213 said:

 

Expedia is usually pretty good/accurate with pricing. They're one of the reliable ones. BUT, I would use Expedia (or the ITA Matrix mentioned earlier) to find flights, then head over to the airline to book them. 

So far, we have always used Viking Air with Air Plus, and I also do my browsing with Expedia and then call Viking with the flights I am interested in. We have been really lucky getting our first choice of flights that way. Thanks for the reminder in case we ever decide to book on our own.

[fbgd]

You're completely wasting your time trying to gauge where fares will be when you're as good as a year out from them even going on sale...Looking at prices for the same month but in 2023 is equally as useless a gauge too.

 

This might sound a little backwards but Colombo in Sri Lanka is a cheap place to start business and first class fares from. 

 

You may find that squirreling away miles so you can redeem First/Business Class to BOM and then buying a cash oneway First/Business fare out of CMB makes sound financial sense. If the oneways price up exceptionally high then you can book a return connecting through say Europe for your next trip and just throw the last leg away by planning things carefully if you don't want to go back to Sri Lanka in the future.

 

You just book a BKK-CMB fare separately and give yourself plenty of time to self-connect, even tack on a couple of days in Sri Lanka, it's an amazing country!

[lackcreativity]

On 2/13/2023 at 11:12 PM, fbgd said:

You're completely wasting your time trying to gauge where fares will be when you're as good as a year out from them even going on sale...Looking at prices for the same month but in 2023 is equally as useless a gauge too.

Thanks for the advice. I do understand the pricing issue for a trip that far in advance. My problem is that I think I will only book the trip if I can figure out an acceptable way to get there. We have only traveled East Coast to Europe so far, and suffer through economy seating on those. That is not an option for going all the way to Bangkok for me. Neither is paying as much for the flight as we are paying for the cruise. I am just trying to get some information since this is all new to me.

[Bo1953]

21 hours ago, lackcreativity said:

Thanks for the advice. I do understand the pricing issue for a trip that far in advance. My problem is that I think I will only book the trip if I can figure out an acceptable way to get there. We have only traveled East Coast to Europe so far, and suffer through economy seating on those. That is not an option for going all the way to Bangkok for me. Neither is paying as much for the flight as we are paying for the cruise. I am just trying to get some information since this is all new to me.

I believe you will find that the options are very few, in your case, to achieve pricing vs comfort to Europe, with the exception of breaking up the trip into segments going and returning, possibly???

 

We fly from the east coast to Europe in business class and it does, at times, equaled or exceeded the cruise price.

 

We do not have "points" to use, so it is market price and have to find the deals, rather that be through the cruise line or a reputable discount airline TA or the airline direct...

 

We book the sailing to take, then start looking for air (refundable only) if fares do not reach a level we would be happy paying, we cancel, reluctantly.

 

So we chalk it up to the price of traveling, if we decide that it is un-affordable, then we sail closer to home...

 

I Am sure you will make the decision which you think is the best for you...

 

bon voyage

[lackcreativity]

Bo1953,

 

That sounds very much like what I will have to do. We also do not have points to work with, since we only take one trip a year and our credit card is a cash back card. It never seemed worth switching, and now is seems too late to worry about it. 

 

I have looked for segments that would make the Bangkok to Baltimore portion tolerable, but I can't see taking four days to get home. Just the thought of that seems exhausting! So far, my best hint (thank you klfrodo) has been to check flights from Toronto. That is just a 90 minute flight from Baltimore, and business class from there seems less expensive. 

 

Actually, I never expected to be able to travel to Asia at all, for this very reason. This Viking itinerary from Bangkok to Mumbai is very appealing, but if it never happens for us, I will still be most grateful for all the places we have seen.

 

 

 

[Gardyloo]

Here's a forum on Flyertalk where the (usually quite expert) fare sleuths post information about good deals in premium-cabin flights.  You'll need to brush up on your airline and airport codes, but it can be well worth your time.  Premium Fare Deals - FlyerTalk Forums

[Twickenham]

2 hours ago, lackcreativity said:

We also do not have points to work with, since we only take one trip a year and our credit card is a cash back card. It never seemed worth switching, and now is seems too late to worry about it. 

 

Do not discount the points options so fast. I can tell you from experience that the vast majority of my points have come from sign-up bonuses, rather than everyday spend on the card. Indeed, the point where I became serious about the points game was when MamaTwick and I were planning a possible trip to Asia. Like you, we couldn't face the prospect of 14 hours in coach, so I looked at my options. On September 1st we had zero points in our accounts. By December 31st, we had enough each for a round-trip ticket in business class to Asia. All through sign-up bonuses. And this is in Canada, with much fewer points options than in the US.

 

You say your daughter in into the points game - well, ask her if she can find you a path to your goal.

[Hlitner]

Some cruise lines, especially Princess, Seabourn and HAL (they use the same air system) will often have decent Business and Premium economy prices.  As an example, we will soon be flying from Dulles to Tokyo (Business Class lay flat seats) for about $2200 per person!  And that is on British Air and JAL (both decent airlines).   Some other cruise lines (Oceania quickly comes to mind) do not generally offer good Business/First Class deals.  

 

There have been times when we actually chose or rejected booking a cruise because of the air deals.

 

Hank

[lackcreativity]

56 minutes ago, Twickenham said:

 

Do not discount the points options so fast. I can tell you from experience that the vast majority of my points have come from sign-up bonuses, rather than everyday spend on the card.  

............

You say your daughter in into the points game - well, ask her if she can find you a path to your goal.

I have no doubt she can do just that! Your point about the sign-up bonuses does open my mind to that possibility. Thanks.

[Dobby36]

On 2/19/2023 at 12:02 PM, lackcreativity said:

I have no doubt she can do just that! Your point about the sign-up bonuses does open my mind to that possibility. Thanks.

I totally second the strategy of going after intro bonuses for points. 

A few reasons: 

-you are flying in late 2024, so you have the better part of a year to rack up points

-your daughter seems to be a resource, tap into that (also google Prince of Travel or Thee Points Guy or Ask Sebby if you want to read/watch youtube on the topic)

-i believe one post mentioned you/spouse own a business - if the possibility of opening a business card exists, then bonuses become even more lucrative. 

 

You can largely keep your preferred cash back card, and just open a few choice cards that provide intro bonuses in transferable points, and use them only until you get the points bonus threshold met - need not switch over permanently. 

 

I'd pick a couple Asian carriers known for their business class seats and work backwards from there - (think Singapore, Cathay Pacific and JAL) depending on your destinations.  Alaska Airlines has a strong network of relationships beyond just OneWorld in Asia, and offers both a personal and business co-branded card through Bank of America.

 

[fruitmachine]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:51 PM, Gardyloo said:

Now here's the big deal.  The prices for these tickets are hugely different depending on where the trip begins and ends.  For example, a business class Oneworld Explorer ticket good for travel over three continents carries a base price (before taxes and fees) of US$10,426 if travel begins and ends in the USA.  The same ticket costs $5136 (less than half as much) if travel begins and ends in Norway.  

Fantastic post!

Do you have a 'top 5' of countries where RTW are cheapest as a starting point?

[Gardyloo]

12 minutes ago, fruitmachine said:

Fantastic post!

Do you have a 'top 5' of countries where RTW are cheapest as a starting point?

Well, the "cheapest" places change from time to time, and one must always take into consideration (a) "positioning" costs in getting from one's home to the start/end point, and (b) the considerable impact one's choice of airlines and routes has on the fees and taxes calculations that are in addition to the base fares.  

 

For example, ticketing through and traveling on British Airways exposes one to very high surcharges and fees that BA adds not just to the flights in the RTW that BA operates, but to other carriers' flights as well.  Qatar Airways does the same, but the likes of American Airlines or Japan Airlines are less addicted to these kinds of add-ons.  Or, flying from the UK in premium classes exposes one to very high UK departure taxes (called "air passenger duty" but we know what they mean) that can be avoided by, for example, flying shorthaul from Britain to someplace on the continent and connecting to longhaul service there.  Things like that.

 

I use Expert Flyer, a subscription service, to see RTW fares from various countries.  At present, and note this can change, the cheapest origin points for Oneworld RTWs in Economy are clustered in Europe, mostly around the US$2500 mark (+/- $200) for a 4-continent ticket ($200 or $300 less for a 3-continent one.)  Some places in the Middle East are also "cheap," maybe ca. $2000 for the same ticket, and starting a 4-continent ticket in Australia or NZ is about the same as in Europe.

 

In business class, at present the cheapest origin points for a Oneworld 4-continent ticket are Norway, Japan, Egypt and Namibia, with base prices ranging from around US $4600 to $5500.  But like I say, this is not the whole picture, and these things can change rapidly.  A few months ago Hungary was cheaper than Norway, but somebody at Oneworld fixed that toot sweet.  Over the course of years I've started Oneworld RTWs in Istanbul, Warsaw, Cape Town, Tokyo, and Stockholm, so one just needs to do homework when one is ready to fly.

 

The spread for Star Alliance RTWs, both in economy and business class, is much less than with Oneworld, with the cheapest fares at the 29,000 mile and 34,000 mile tiers generally turning up in Europe and the Middle East too.  For both alliances, start/end points in North and South America, and in Southeast Asia, tend to be higher than in other parts of the world, but there are exceptions,

[Zach1213]

1 hour ago, Gardyloo said:

In business class, at present the cheapest origin points for a Oneworld 4-continent ticket are Norway, Japan, Egypt and Namibia

 

As CC's resident (and possibly only) Namibian, please do check us out!