Walking sticks and P&O

[Megabear2]

56 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

Tomayto, tomahto, call it what you will with the current rules you may not get on a P&O ship with a walking stick. I have used a hiking pole for many years as do lots of hikers, neither as a walking aid or assistive device, for the last year I have taken a pole on my cruises for port days, it is packed in my case. In reality it was used to help me walk further that I could without it plus if I had a back spasm I would unlikely stumble/fall. I have completed the form saying I am taking a stick but I need no assistance, that should now be the end of it, but who knows, if this is still bubbling away when I take my next P&O/Cunard cruise I will fill in the form again and say I won't be taking a stick and pack my walking pole as usual. It will end up just the same as the old paper health form and then the new online one. Do you have a cough? ahem ahem No guv honest. I do think we are probably overthinking with a modicum of guess work involved, which we shouldn't need to do to try and work around another ill conceived P&O missive with a statement in bold "You may be denied boarding". I It is another sticking plaster not a cure. 

On a lighter note I wonder if they will let me on with a stick of rock😁

I do not think it's so much overthinking as urging people to fill in the form if they have a stick of any type.  The whole policy is apparently designed (P&O and Cunard both state) to limit the number of people who have mobility problems that they are unaware of.

 

What constitutes a "mobility problem" is one for the individual to decide.  Many here including yourself originally thought it didn't apply to them.  Really this thread has moved on from my personal problems which led me to start it and should now be replaced with one about the new policy to ensure everyone is aware.

[zap99]

23 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

 

 

 

Zap, the problem isn't the test, it's being told you will be given an appointment as if you have to prove yourself when the cruise actually has no tender ports. You will report at the time they state and where, it's not on boarding apparently,.

What if there is an emergency and we all need to go to muster stations,  or lifeboats. They need to know who has mobility issues. You could say that all the safety videos and muster drills are a waste. The ship didn't sink, did it?.

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, zap99 said:

What if there is an emergency and we all need to go to muster stations,  or lifeboats. They need to know who has mobility issues. You could say that all the safety videos and muster drills are a waste. The ship didn't sink, did it?.

I'll wait for the screams when those who don't think the walking stick rule applies.  To be truthful as I said above this thread is now redundant for me.  New rule followed if P&O choose to not reply I've done my bit up to them now.

 

I'll not be commenting again on the issue.

[david63]

Something that occurred to me specifically in regard to walking sticks is whether it is tied in with the enforcement of arrival times.

 

Are there perhaps some passengers turning up three hours before their scheduled arrival time saying that as they have a walking stick that they cannot stand and demand to be let in.

 

Another thing is how many are going to be denied boarding just because they have a walking stick that has not been declared in advance - the press will have a field day.

 

We then have a possible scenario where somebody books a cruise 18 months or more out and then finds that by the time the cruise comes around that they need a walking stick but there are no crew available to assist them so they have to cancel and P&O will not refund the deposit.

 

The whole point is that anyone with any disability should be able to make their own choices as to what assistance they require and not somebody sat in an office doing a box ticking exercise with no medical experience or actual knowledge of the passenger.

[yorkshirephil]

3 minutes ago, david63 said:

Something that occurred to me specifically in regard to walking sticks is whether it is tied in with the enforcement of arrival times.

 

Are there perhaps some passengers turning up three hours before their scheduled arrival time saying that as they have a walking stick that they cannot stand and demand to be let in.

 

Another thing is how many are going to be denied boarding just because they have a walking stick that has not been declared in advance - the press will have a field day.

 

We then have a possible scenario where somebody books a cruise 18 months or more out and then finds that by the time the cruise comes around that they need a walking stick but there are no crew available to assist them so they have to cancel and P&O will not refund the deposit.

 

The whole point is that anyone with any disability should be able to make their own choices as to what assistance they require and not somebody sat in an office doing a box ticking exercise with no medical experience or actual knowledge of the passenger.

See my opinion in #28, albeit tongue in cheek it happens, we sat with a lady at breakfast on Aurora recently who works at Southampton, she said some of the excuses to sneak on early were people couldn't stand for long so couldn't possibly queue or that they were diabetic and needed a meal or had a hidden disability that they wouldn't discus but wouldn't look good in the press if they were denied boarding straight away. This is supported by posts I have seen on faceache where so called influencer's have openly advised people to do this. 

If you look at some of moleys posts his comments support idea that it is to stop people turning up early. I would send out messages that "YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO BOARD BEFORE YOUR ALLOCATED TIME" rather than worrying  the life out of us rickety old pensioners that follow the rules or accept the consequences.

[cruising.mark.uk]

20 minutes ago, david63 said:

The whole point is that anyone with any disability should be able to make their own choices as to what assistance they require and not somebody sat in an office doing a box ticking exercise with no medical experience or actual knowledge of the passenger.

That sounds fine in theory, but would be problematic – in my opinion – to apply in practice. There are two reasons for that: first, people cannot be relied upon to be honest about whether they have disabilities or other reasons for needing assistance and, even where people are honest about their disabilities, they might not be honest with themselves (or others) about whether they need assistance.  Hence, at one extreme those who claim they need assistance as a way to blagging themselves on to the ship early and, at the other extreme, the story that I believe was mentioned earlier on this threat about the two blind individuals who said that they were each other’s assistance.

 

The second reason is that the legal responsibility for looking after those with disabilities correctly and ensuring that their health and safety is protected lies with the cruise line.  Hence, I think it is only reasonable that the cruise line i.e. the captain and staff on the ship, rather than a back office box-ticker (but requiring a form to be completed in advance at least gives the onboard staff something to start with), will wish to have the final say as to who requires assistance and of what type.  The risk lies with them and it is the cruise line that has to get everyone off the ship and / or to a place of safety in an emergency, whether or not those individuals have been entirely truthful about any disabilities they have and / or the mobility assistance they will need.

Edited November 16, 2023 by cruising.mark.uk

[lancashire_cruisers]

4 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

That sounds fine in theory, but would be problematic – in my opinion – to apply in practice. There are two reasons for that: first, people cannot be relied upon to be honest about whether they have disabilities or other reasons for needing assistance and, even where people are honest about their disabilities, they might not be honest with themselves (or others) about whether they need assistance.  Hence, at one extreme those who claim they need assistance as a way to blagging themselves on to the ship early and, at the other extreme, the story that I believe was mentioned earlier on this threat about the two blind individuals who said that they were each other’s assistance.

 

The second reason is that the legal responsibility for looking after those with disabilities correctly and ensuring that their health and safety is protected lies with the cruise line.  Hence, I think it is only reasonable that the cruise line i.e. the captain and staff on the ship, rather than a back office box-ticker (but requiring a form to be completed in advance at least gives the onboard staff something to start with), will wish to have the final say as to who requires assistance and of what type.  The risk lies with them and it is the cruise line that has to get everyone off the ship and / or to a place of safety in an emergency, whether or not those individuals have been entirely truthful about any disabilities they have and / or the mobility assistance they will need.

I wish I could like this more than once as it summarises the issue precisely. I have a disability and whilst my mobility is OK at the moment it is declining and I don’t see the issue in having to complete the form. Nor do I think it’s demeaning or insulting to have to prove you can manage the tender.

 

It’s for the safety of everyone and just common sense isn’t it?

[laslomas]

34 minutes ago, david63 said:

 

We then have a possible scenario where somebody books a cruise 18 months or more out and then finds that by the time the cruise comes around that they need a walking stick but there are no crew available to assist them so they have to cancel and P&O will not refund the deposit.

 

 

This is exactly what I have been thinking.

 

For example, a fit and healthy person books a cruise. Two weeks before the cruise they suffer a small injury that requires occasional use of a walking stick now and again, for a week or two. Presumably they then have to inform P&O to update their previous 'on board needs' statement to include the use of a walking stick. This person does not require any assistance from staff on board in the case of emergency but could be denied boarding as they declared occasional use of a walking stick. This would include loss of money paid for the cruise. I am sure the health insurance would not cover anything like this.

 

So we need a crystal ball, or we need to state the use of a stick - just in case!!

[terrierjohn]

30 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

That sounds fine in theory, but would be problematic – in my opinion – to apply in practice. There are two reasons for that: first, people cannot be relied upon to be honest about whether they have disabilities or other reasons for needing assistance and, even where people are honest about their disabilities, they might not be honest with themselves (or others) about whether they need assistance.  Hence, at one extreme those who claim they need assistance as a way to blagging themselves on to the ship early and, at the other extreme, the story that I believe was mentioned earlier on this threat about the two blind individuals who said that they were each other’s assistance.

 

The second reason is that the legal responsibility for looking after those with disabilities correctly and ensuring that their health and safety is protected lies with the cruise line.  Hence, I think it is only reasonable that the cruise line i.e. the captain and staff on the ship, rather than a back office box-ticker (but requiring a form to be completed in advance at least gives the onboard staff something to start with), will wish to have the final say as to who requires assistance and of what type.  The risk lies with them and it is the cruise line that has to get everyone off the ship and / or to a place of safety in an emergency, whether or not those individuals have been entirely truthful about any disabilities they have and / or the mobility assistance they will need.

But if you follow your theory, then P&O will need to double the numbers of staff, just to ensure they have enough staff to assist all the walking stick passengers using the stairs in an emergency.

[nosapphire]

For those who are wondering if their Nordic walking pole will be treated as a walking stick/mobility aid, if it was not a tongue-in-cheek question, the Gov.Uk link (scroll down to 4.1) makes it quite clear the difference between a mobility aid and a non-mobility aid.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/assistive-technology-definition-and-safe-use/assistive-technology-definition-and-safe-use

 

The information posted about P&O requirements seems clear to me - if there is an emergency, are you able to go up and down stairs without assistance?

My interpretation:

The 121 is the minimum recommended assistance for those who use a walking stick; it is not a compulsory requirement.

If you use a walking stick BUT can make your own way up and down stairs without anybody helping you, then you do not need assistance.

Regardless of whether or not you use a walking stick or anything else, if the lifts being out of operation leave you stranded, then you need assistance.

 

I wonder if some of these changes are less to do with people abusing the system and more to do with the recent bad weather (including the widely publicised roll of the Saga ship) highlighting what a disaster it could be in a real crisis if the ship crew were unaware of how many passengers they had on board who said "no" to the assistance question - but were basing their answer on the assumption that they would not need to use the stairs.

 

 

[Clodia]

I think that's very true. I have an injury at present which will heal but at the moment I struggle a bit with stairs and queues. My physio told me NOT to use a stick as I'd get dependent on it, and with this new rule I'm glad I didn't.  I am using the lifts more than usual because of the pain, but I did make a point of walking to my Muster Station from my cabin on Iona on day 1, just to check I could do it unaided. 

[cruising.mark.uk]

23 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

But if you follow your theory, then P&O will need to double the numbers of staff, just to ensure they have enough staff to assist all the walking stick passengers using the stairs in an emergency.

No it doesn't.  They'll need the same number of staff as they have now.  But, as is clear from @nosapphire and @Clodia's posts above, they will henceforth have a much better idea of the people who may need assistance in the event of an emergency than they do at present.  And. the crew on board will rapidly ascertain which of those who are registered as having a stick are actually using one and which of those who are using one will and will not actually need assistance if the worst comes to the worst.

 

So, the number of people who need assistance in an emergency will be no different from what it was before these forms existed.  What they will change (once, no doubt, the use of them has been tested and adjusted a little to reflect real world experience and any issues that arise), is that the crew will have a much clearer idea of what that number is and which passengers are included.

[david05]

22 minutes ago, laslomas said:

For example, a fit and healthy person books a cruise. Two weeks before the cruise they suffer a small injury that requires occasional use of a walking stick now and again, for a week or two. Presumably they then have to inform P&O to update their previous 'on board needs' statement to include the use of a walking stick. This person does not require any assistance from staff on board in the case of emergency but could be denied boarding as they declared occasional use of a walking stick. This would include loss of money paid for the cruise. I am sure the health insurance would not cover anything like this.

The government's guidance for carriers (including cruises) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-guidance-notes-relating-to-regulation-eu-no-1177-2010/guidance-for-carriers-tour-operators-and-travel-agents-on-the-carriage-of-disabled-passengers-and-others-with-reduced-mobility-guidance-note-2 states:

 

"Where a disabled person or a person with reduced mobility has a booking or a ticket for a sailing and, when making the booking or buying the ticket, had provided information about their specific requirements for accommodation or need to bring medical equipment for reasons related to their disability or mobility, and is nonetheless refused embarkation at the port, the ferry or cruise operator must:

• provide a full refund within 7 days and, if all safety requirements can be met, arrange free travel for the person back to their first point of departure
• arrange, similarly if all safety requirements can be met, for the person to be taken to their destination by a different route (or on a later sailing, if that suits the passenger) at no additional cost and under comparable conditions

The choice between the two options is for the passenger."

 

The same ought to apply if there has been a change of circumstances which have been declared prior to departure. It seems to me that as long as you have declared the use of a walking stick and a well-founded statement that you do not require assistance, then if P&O refuse to allow you to embark you will at least be entitled to a full refund. So in theory the only people to lose out should be those who have failed to declare the use of a walking stick (and presumably P&O consider require assistance). I accept, however, that if there is a change of circumstances which means that you do now require assistance and P&O decline in those circumstances to honour the booking (prior to departure) the issue is not so clear cut.

[Megabear2]

On the issue of accidents before a cruise you have to complete the form a minimum of 14 days before departure as per the website. Not sure what you do after that, probably have to call for permission and if told no go claim on insurance if you can.

 

I think we have a fairly recent thread of someone with a broken arm having to do just that.

[terrierjohn]

28 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

No it doesn't.  They'll need the same number of staff as they have now.  But, as is clear from @nosapphire and @Clodia's posts above, they will henceforth have a much better idea of the people who may need assistance in the event of an emergency than they do at present.  And. the crew on board will rapidly ascertain which of those who are registered as having a stick are actually using one and which of those who are using one will and will not actually need assistance if the worst comes to the worst.

 

So, the number of people who need assistance in an emergency will be no different from what it was before these forms existed.  What they will change (once, no doubt, the use of them has been tested and adjusted a little to reflect real world experience and any issues that arise), is that the crew will have a much clearer idea of what that number is and which passengers are included.

How will the crew have a clear idea of who will require help when there is currently no emergency drill. At least on the old system the stairway guides could have identified those needing help, by the numbers that required the lifts.  Now that no longer exists I wonder why you think that having a form filled in up to two years before the cruise will give staff any clue as to how many passengers will need help, nor will they know how this might impact the speed at which passengers progress to their muster stations.

[indiana123]

1 hour ago, lancashire_cruisers said:

I have a disability and whilst my mobility is OK at the moment it is declining and I don’t see the issue in having to complete the form. Nor do I think it’s demeaning or insulting to have to prove you can manage the tender.

 

It’s for the safety of everyone and just common sense isn’t it?

 

 

Absolutely spot on Lancashire Cruiser.

 

I too have a disability and have absolutely no problem in completing any paperwork required,

 

As another disabled person I feel it is for our own good, although I feel that in an emergency adrenalin would see me first up the stairs😊  The fact that I think that in my head, but it might not be possible makes me even more than happy to abide by safety rules.

[cruising.mark.uk]

48 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

How will the crew have a clear idea of who will require help when there is currently no emergency drill. At least on the old system the stairway guides could have identified those needing help, by the numbers that required the lifts.  Now that no longer exists I wonder why you think that having a form filled in up to two years before the cruise will give staff any clue as to how many passengers will need help, nor will they know how this might impact the speed at which passengers progress to their muster stations.

Erm, because they will see how mobile people actually are around the ship. I suspect room attendants (who also now seem to double up as buffet assistants and will therefore also get an insight as to how mobile people really are when there is the prospect of food on offer) will be told who has filled in the form to say they have a mobility aid and whether they said they would require assistance or not.  We saw our steward 5 or 6 times a day on Britannia in Oct, in the corridor outside our cabin, along the length of our corridor and in the lift lobby (and we are not people who go looking for our steward or engage with them at any length beyond the occasional pleasantries).  We also saw the same couple of members of staff constantly cleaning the lifts and stairs.  At a guess, staff like these will have worked out within 24 hrs who used a mobility aid to jump the embarkation queue and won't use it again until they need to jump the disembarkation queue, who registered one but said they didn't need assistance and is clearly perfectly mobile, who registered one and will definitely need assistance in an emergency (whether or not they said on the form they would) and who hasn't registered a mobility aid / that they need assistance, but takes 10 minutes of struggling shuffle to manoeuvre the 50 feet from their cabin to the lifts.  

Edited November 16, 2023 by cruising.mark.uk

[Cathygh]

20 hours ago, david63 said:

Once the initial rush has finished you do not, in my experience, need a ticket - you just go down to the tender. Also anyone in a suite does not need a ticket at any time, they too can just go straight to the tender.

We like to go early. We have learned from experience that if you wait too long then the tenders are suspended die to the weather so we miss the port. Or even if we get over then they are suspended when we want to come back. We have a few hours stranded shoreside in wind and rain

[terrierjohn]

3 hours ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

Erm, because they will see how mobile people actually are around the ship. I suspect room attendants (who also now seem to double up as buffet assistants and will therefore also get an insight as to how mobile people really are when there is the prospect of food on offer) will be told who has filled in the form to say they have a mobility aid and whether they said they would require assistance or not.  We saw our steward 5 or 6 times a day on Britannia in Oct, in the corridor outside our cabin, along the length of our corridor and in the lift lobby (and we are not people who go looking for our steward or engage with them at any length beyond the occasional pleasantries).  We also saw the same couple of members of staff constantly cleaning the lifts and stairs.  At a guess, staff like these will have worked out within 24 hrs who used a mobility aid to jump the embarkation queue and won't use it again until they need to jump the disembarkation queue, who registered one but said they didn't need assistance and is clearly perfectly mobile, who registered one and will definitely need assistance in an emergency (whether or not they said on the form they would) and who hasn't registered a mobility aid / that they need assistance, but takes 10 minutes of struggling shuffle to manoeuvre the 50 feet from their cabin to the lifts.  

You have a great deal more faith in the hotel staff having the time or inclination to check the mobility of the passengers in their cabin list, or for any other staff to identify struggling passengers, know their cabin numbers, and be able to note it all down, and keep up to date with their routine jobs.

[nosapphire]

May be able to sift some at check-in, who will have the best opportunity to see how people are moving when they arrive,and will (should?) have the records of whether assistance has been requested or not.

 

It may not be so much a case of establishing for every passenger whether or not they are able, it is:

(a) having the right to deny boarding for those who have not declared but are evidently not capable of getting around without assistance in an emergency (even with those who use a walking stick, it is generally obvious who needs the stick to be able to move around and who uses the stick for a bit of extra confidence) (or to prod queue jumpers...).

and

(b) if there ever is an emergency, being able to demonstrate afterwards that they have taken every reasonable precaution to make sure they did not have more non-mobile passengers than the ship should be carrying.

 

As for the queue jumpers, having to fill out all the details prior to boarding or risk being refused should deter quite a lot of them. Hopefully.

 

 

 

[FangedRose]

This reminds me of a cruise some five or six years ago (could be longer ago). A gentleman was travelling alone had two epileptic fits several days apart. According to P&O regs he shouldn't have been travelling alone but he didn't declare it because he wanted to cruise. He had to spend several days in the medical centre as we were transatlantic and, according to the story going around the ship, he was disembarked ASAP with a medical bill exceeding the total cost of the cruise with no assistance from P&O, and no insurance as he didn't declare it.

 

The first part of the story I observed first hand, but what happened after he was wheeled down the deck by a very disgruntled medic was ship wide rumour. But, nobody saw him around the ship after the second incident.

 

It just shows what people will lie about to get on board.

[david63]

3 hours ago, nosapphire said:

As for the queue jumpers, having to fill out all the details prior to boarding or risk being refused should deter quite a lot of them.

Only if they are aware of it.

 

The issue is that not declaring a walking stick is not clear when booking on line, and probably even less clear is using a TA. There are two check boxes when making a booking:

 

"Medical mobility and dietary assistance

Check this box if any guest on this booking requires assistance or auxiliary aids for mobility, sensory, respiratory, severe allergies, disability related, or medically related. If checked, a Special Requirements Information form (SRI) will be provided to the contact listed for this booking."

 

"Emergency assistance requirement

In the unlikely event of an emergency on board, will Guest 1 require assistance from our onboard crew to be able to get to your assigned assembly point? If you have booked a flight or hotel and require emergency assistance, please call our customer contact centre to secure your booking."

 

[Ardennais]

Well I’ve just filled the questionnaire on behalf of my mother for a Cunard cruise next year. Very straightforward thus far - they will apparently contact me if they need any more information. I have declared her walking stick and rollator (which she uses infrequently but is a good back-up, just in case). I have also stated that she does not need assistance, and have ticked that she doesn’t have a carer at home. I have also ticked that she could board a tender independently. 

[Megabear2]

42 minutes ago, Ardennais said:

Well I’ve just filled the questionnaire on behalf of my mother for a Cunard cruise next year. Very straightforward thus far - they will apparently contact me if they need any more information. I have declared her walking stick and rollator (which she uses infrequently but is a good back-up, just in case). I have also stated that she does not need assistance, and have ticked that she doesn’t have a carer at home. I have also ticked that she could board a tender independently. 

Cunard were excellent for us.  Still getting nowhere with P&O.

 

Our problem is not so much now the walking stick more the query of what is intermittent use with fibromyalgia, that's from the other hidden disabilities box and is why the form is being queried.  The guy at Cunard is medically trained so although both emailed/called for details from this box Cunard understand the illness varies day to day and P&O don't.

 

 

[nosapphire]

1 hour ago, david63 said:

Only if they are aware of it.

 

The issue is that not declaring a walking stick is not clear when booking on line, and probably even less clear is using a TA. There are two check boxes when making a booking:

 

"Medical mobility and dietary assistance

Check this box if any guest on this booking requires assistance or auxiliary aids for mobility, sensory, respiratory, severe allergies, disability related, or medically related. If checked, a Special Requirements Information form (SRI) will be provided to the contact listed for this booking."

 

"Emergency assistance requirement

In the unlikely event of an emergency on board, will Guest 1 require assistance from our onboard crew to be able to get to your assigned assembly point? If you have booked a flight or hotel and require emergency assistance, please call our customer contact centre to secure your booking."

 

I think the pertinent phrase is "require assistance".

 

The majority of people who genuinely need assistance will say yes, simply because they know they will otherwise find it difficult to get from shoreside to the ship and their cabin.

I think it highly unlikely that anyone will be refused boarding simply because they have an undeclared walking stick but are capable of moving to/from the ship and up/down stairs without anyone helping them.

And those who just turn up and ask for assistance purely to get in front of the embarkation queue - let's hope they are indeed refused boarding.