Holland America Lines Disasterdam

[richwmn]

4. The HAL representatives were woefully incorrect in advising the OP that his foreign-issued BC was acceptable.

 

I am not so sure that the HAL rep necessarily understood that it might not have been a US iisued birth certificate. I am not even sure who issued ithe BC, I think I recall reading about translations which makes me think it was issued by Germany.

 

That is why I stated in my earlier post that I believe there was a communications disconnect between ejammer and Nikki or Nikki and Dane. The chat shows ejammer saying he is a US Citizen and Resident, but no where does he mention that his birth certificate is German.

[cherylandtk]

I am not so sure that the HAL rep necessarily understood that it might not have been a US iisued birth certificate. I am not even sure who issued ithe BC, I think I recall reading about translations which makes me think it was issued by Germany.

 

That is why I stated in my earlier post that I believe there was a communications disconnect between ejammer and Nikki or Nikki and Dane. The chat shows ejammer saying he is a US Citizen and Resident, but no where does he mention that his birth certificate is German.

Transcript from post #171 states:

Nikki: So double check EVERY sailing you're interested in just FYI.

Customer: I was born in a us army hospital in lansthul germany my father was in the army,my mother was german. I have the original birth certificate which indicates this. will this be OK?

Nikki Let me check on that, one moment while I call a supervisor

Is everyone in agreement that the OP says he was born in Germany and that his BC reflects that and that this is in the transcript? If so, then it does not matter if the BC was in English, or German or Swahili. Nor does it matter where it was issued....OP was not born on US soil and his BC cannot be used as proof of US citizenship.

 

This should be common knowledge among travel professionals and HAL was pitiful in their answers.

Edited February 19, 2013 by cherylandtk

[Silver sailor]

Transcript from post #171 states:

 

Is everyone in agreement that the OP says he was born in Germany and that his BC reflects that and that this is in the transcript? If so, then it does not matter if the BC was in English, or German or Swahili. Nor does it matter where it was issued....OP was not born on US soil and his BC cannot be used as proof of US citizenship.

 

This should be common knowledge among travel professionals and HAL was pitiful in their answers.

 

 

Realy don't know at this point if BC was sufficent or not

Do know that OP did his "due diligence" in contacting HAL reagdring the matter

Must agree that in this matter the representatives of HAL should be "professionals"

OP was uncertain and the response from HAL was that his BC was sufficent and he assumed he would not have a problem

Too many in this post try to justify the ERROR? on HAL"s part

They don't write the laws, the assumption that it was not the captain who denied boarding, there must have been a mis communication,the OP should have had a passport da, da ,da da da

After a lengthly conversation he , taking his first cruise, contact those who should know the requirements

Customer loyalty is nice, but it can be taken too far

[taxmantoo]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[jtl513]

Okay, even if the Captain was technically/legally correct because ejammer didn't have the one right piece of paper (this Consular Report of Birth Abroad), I still think he should have let them board and taken the chance on incurring a fine.

 

And I still think for good PR HAL should give these folks a make-up cruise, including air-fare, because Dana steered them wrong. :D

Edited February 19, 2013 by jtl513

[Cruzin Terri]

Okay, even if the Captain was technically/legally correct because ejammer didn't have the one right piece of paper (this Consular Report), I still think he should have let them board and taken the chance on incurring a fine.

 

And I still think for good PR HAL should give these folks a make-up cruise, including air-fare, because Dana steered him wrong. :D

I agree with you. I also think we should let this thread fade away. I think it would be better for OP if this thread were not on the first page and getting so much attention.

HAL may look on him a bit more kindly. My last post on this thread.

Terri

Edited February 19, 2013 by tbrein

[JLC@SD]

That is why I stated in my earlier post that I believe there was a communications disconnect between ejammer and Nikki or Nikki and Dane. The chat shows ejammer saying he is a US Citizen and Resident, but no where does he mention that his birth certificate is German.

....... this is the disconnect .....

Edited February 20, 2013 by JLC@SD

[vbmom87]

Okay, even if the Captain was technically/legally correct because ejammer didn't have the one right piece of paper (this Consular Report of Birth Abroad), I still think he should have let them board and taken the chance on incurring a fine.

 

And I still think for good PR HAL should give these folks a make-up cruise, including air-fare, because Dana steered them wrong. :D

 

I totally agree!!!!!!!

[dag144]

Is this a thread or a full time career! It's gone on so long its time for a cruise!

 

:)

[maxsales]

I am so sorry to learn of your problems but some one screwed up badly when they did not tell you that things have changed since 9//11//01 and that you must have a valid passport to travel.

 

Not true. You can broad a closed loop cruise with an original birth certificate and state issued photo ID. However a passport is certainly recommended.

 

Just check our cruise line website under documentation and you will find this to be the case. :)

[DizzyDallasDi]

You're right, it's not. To muddle the waters further, the 'correct process' changes every generation or so. There are multiple documents that are still accepted as proof of citizenship, some of which are no longer issued and have been replaced by newer documents and processes. It appears to me that the OP does not have any of those specific documents.

 

Ejammer. Is it possible that your birth was reported to the consulate? It was not automatic in years past but many military hospitals did, and if your parents are still living they might also remember. It is probably worth it for you to ask for a search of the records. It is not free, but it is faster than your alternative. HERE is link to the process and forms for that search. Cost is $50.

 

Your alternative is to apply for a Certificate of Citizenship. It is your choice as to whether you even want to apply for a CoC, but I would recommend you do get one if you don't have a Consular Report, just to have a recognized document proving your citizenship. Yes, I know you have managed without one all these years, but in a post 9/11 environment and with the upcoming REAL ID act, you may need one. You certainly will need one if you want to apply for a passport. You cannot apply for a passport with just your German BC and your Father's BC.

 

If you do apply, your translated German birth certificate proves your father, and his Birth Certificate proves his Citizenship. The one additional item you will need is documentation to show your father's presence in the US (or serving in the Army overseas --> his DD 214) for the requisite number of years before and after the age of 14. This is the one thing that tends to be the most difficult to prove, as most people don't think to keep these sorts of records. In these cases, it also helps to have documents showing you have lived here essentially your entire life; this is where your Eagle Scout newspaper clippings and elementary report cards and even your childhood shot records come in handy. Hopefully your mother kept those things in a box the attic. If either of your parents are still living, they can also sign affidavits attesting to these facts.

 

Now for some good news: It normally would cost you $600 to apply for your CoC. As a veteran you are exempt from the fee, so be sure to include your DD 214. :) The application form is N-600 and can be found HERE. Filing tips are HERE, do nose around on the USCIS site if you have any questions on the application.

 

That is extremely helpful (not to mention free :D) advice. I hope ejammer can get all the requisite documents together so he can get his US passport and travel as freely as he wants.

 

However, some life events can never be proven. Even though I have amassed all the documents I possibly can, I will never be able to prove my father's death via death certificate. He was killed in SE Asia while working for the CIA in the mid 60s. No death certificate was ever issued because at that time, he "wasn't there." Get it? To make matters worse, his Army Air Force records went up in smoke in 1973 when the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis burned to the ground. There are no duplicates of those records.

 

There are life insurance policies I'll never be able to collect due to the lack of a death certificate. But money isn't everything....I have 14 years of wonderful memories with my daddy and that's good enough for me. :D

 

PS I'm not seeking advice as it's not necessary given my profession. :)

Edited February 21, 2013 by DizzyDallasDi

[3rdGenCunarder]

My adult son was born on an Air Force base in Japan and you have answered the question as to whether or not his birth certificate would be acceptable on a Mexican Riviera cruise. I see now he'll need a passport.

 

Yes, it's a good idea. Glad that this thread was useful to you. He should start early, in case he has to get additional documents to present with the passport application.

[Cruzin Terri]

He's working on getting all the necessary documents.

Terri

[sail7seas]

My adult son was born on an Air Force base in Japan and you have answered the question as to whether or not his birth certificate would be acceptable on a Mexican Riviera cruise. I see now he'll need a passport.

 

 

How good you saw this thread and got this important information.

 

Hope your son gets his passport with least amount of difficulty. :)

 

[marysb]

I know there is a lot of discussion here ... but this is very simple.

 

If you are leaving the USA - you need a passport!

How could this even remotely be HAL's fault? - it is international law.

[Boytjie]

I know there is a lot of discussion here ... but this is very simple.

 

If you are leaving the USA - you need a passport!

How could this even remotely be HAL's fault? - it is international law.

 

Not true. On a closed loop cruise from the USA you don't need a passport. That is a fact. And what international law are you talking about?

 

That said, I will always travel with a passport (sometimes two).

Edited February 22, 2013 by Boytjie

[djhsolara]

Exactly...

 

The U.S. Customs and Border Protection states:

 

"U.S. citizens on closed-loop cruises (cruises that begin and end at the same U.S. port) will be able to enter or depart the country with a birth certificate and government-issued photo ID. Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents."

 

 

Douglas...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited February 22, 2013 by djhsolara

[horseymike]

get a passport

[catl331]

get a passport

I wonder if that is possible for the OP since he apparently has no Consular Report of Birth Abroad.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I wonder if that is possible for the OP since he apparently has no Consular Report of Birth Abroad.

Sadly I think that is the problem, I cannot believe that no one mentioned when OP came in and stated that his Wife did have a Passport because she Travels to Germany to see their Son.

My wife has had a valid passport for a long time. She obtained it years ago in order to visit our son, who coincidentally, lives in Germany. She was very uncomfortably and offended as everyone (except me) at the port completely ignored her, leaving her feeling inconsequential as all this transpired.

Most couples get their passports together (yes I know not all) but when she applied for a Passport why did he not get one :confused: Did he not want to go see his Son. I think there is far more to the story than we are not aware of. Basically everything he would need to get a Passport would be the same things he would needs to cruise without the Passport but I believe that OP was trying to find a way around it. I believe OP has most likely attempted to get a Passport and has run into Road Blocks so telling him to get one is not worth mentioning any longer.

[jtl513]

I believe OP has most likely attempted to get a Passport and has run into Road Blocks so telling him to get one is not worth mentioning any longer.

If you read the transcript of the conversation with Nikki you'll see that his first 6 words were "Do I need a passport book", so apparently he was intending to get one --- or thinking about it --- until Nikki suggested that he didn't need one. Edited February 22, 2013 by jtl513

[jtl513]

Also he has said several times through this thread that he intends to get one now.

[dwjoe]

In the hopes of clearing up some of the misinformation from the past few pages, here are a few facts:

 

1. OP is a US citizen at birth.

2. His Birth Certificate was issued in Germany and is not proof of US citizenship. He is a US citizen born abroad.

3. The WHTI regulation (22 CFR § 53.2 (b) (2) ) which allows US citizens to travel on round-trip (closed loop) cruises specifies only three exception documents accepted for proof of US citizenship for this travel:

-A US government issued Birth Certificate showing birth in the US. (State, County or City issued, not hospital issued)

-A US State Dept. Consular Report of Birth Abroad

-A US State Dept. Certificate of Naturalization

Thank you for posting this and correcting the shocking amount of misinformation posted previously in this thread.

 

Here's a quick recap:

 

A passport book is recommended but not always required.

 

For cruises beginning and ending in Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative countries, any WHTI-compliant document will suffice, such as a Passport Card or Enhanced Driver's License.

 

For closed-loop cruises beginning and ending in the same US port, the documents you posted for #3 above will suffice. You need a photo ID plus one of the three named documents that proves US citizenship. US citizens born abroad need a US Consular Report of Birth Abroad. That is your "birth certificate" as far as all US authorities are concerned. Your foreign birth certificate doesn't help you because it doesn't prove US citizenship.

 

It is a shame OP did not post their question on Cruise Critic prior to your cruise as expert posters would have set OP straight by getting to the heart of the matter: is your "birth certificate" issued by a US or foreign authority, and what does it look like? That detail was glossed over and/or an incorrect assumption made by HAL chat reps.

 

I am sorry that HAL did not set you straight regarding this, but NO cruise line representatives can be relied upon to give correct documentation information in informal communication. You can usually rely on their formal written guidelines (which if you look them up are not explicit regarding your particular case).

 

One other topic to clarify: although documentation requirements are set by the government, cruise lines are tasked with enforcing them and have no discretion to make exceptions. It's different if you are on US soil seeking entry in front of a CBP office. They have discretion to make exceptions to documentation requirements. The cruise lines have no such discretion, if they let a pax board with incorrect documentation they can be heavilly fined, and that's why the Captain ruled as he did.

 

Full details of documentation requirements can be found at this site. It's a great general resource to refer people to regarding cruise documentation requirements.http://www.getyouhome.gov/

Edited February 22, 2013 by dwjoe

[celle]

I know there is a lot of discussion here ... but this is very simple.

 

If you are leaving the USA - you need a passport!

How could this even remotely be HAL's fault? - it is international law.

 

If only it were that simple!

[sandij]

My adult son was born in the Dominican Republic while we were working there. He has a Citizen Born Abroad birth certificate made at the US embassy there. He now has a passport and military docs after being in the Air Force but he never had any problem before as a teenager when we traveled, maybe the rules have changed or at least tightened up after 9/11. Get a passport