There is Something Very Wrong and I Don't Know What it Is........

[iancal]

I think it grossly unfair to blame Carnival Corp for the decline in HAL.

 

There would be no HAL today if it were not for Carnival Corp taking over a near bankrupt company that could not raise a dime on the capital markets to finance new ships. And that was over 20 years ago. Enough with the nostalgia-it is misplaced.

 

I think the real culprit is the market itself. Too many ships, too little demand has caused prices to decrease. And competition from other forms of vacations.

 

Prices in the mass marketplace have been constant or decreasing. Costs have been increasing. Not much of a stretch required to see what any of the mass market lines, including HAL, will do to stay in business. Cut costs, build bigger, more efficient ships with lower fixed and variable cost per cruiser.

[HamOp]

You are correct, Sail.

 

Ever since that time, HAL has gradually continued its downward spiral. Things slowly changed for the worse year after year.

 

If you get it figured out, be sure to let us know.

 

This all depends on which side of the aisle you are on.

 

Let's take music for an example. If you like the strings and classical piano, you might think the selection of music is on a downward spiral if a rock band is playing. However if you are of the younger set, you may will see the change to more modern music as a vast improvement.

 

It's all perspective.

 

By the way, I like all kinds of music, well except for rap. That's just profane noise to me (but I know many like it).

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

By the way, I like all kinds of music, well except for rap. That's just profane noise to me (but I know many like it).

Amen to that!!!

[msteries]

I did not understand the comment about having to buy a case of liquor. Last week one could go to indulgences a buy a bottle of Dewars, and have it in the cabin upon arrival. Someone reorts this has changed?

Mary

[Lauranne]

I don't mind the comments, both negative and positive on the HAL board. We travel often, mostly land travel and I understand that we all have expectations and varying experiences. When I read a review for a hotel or restaurant I will see those that love the experience and those that disliked the experience and those somewhere in the middle. As long as I am comfortable with often reported problems I will book. If the problems are more than I can bear then I will look elsewhere.

While planning for this cruise I found the information on CC to be invaluable. Yes some comments were extremely negative and over time I found that certain posters were often negative but the majority of the time people were giving their opinion and frankly what else do we have to give. The term unbiased opinion is really an oxymoron. So we need to take what we can and leave the rest and yes....this is just my opinion. :D

[cruisin'girl]

I did not understand the comment about having to buy a case of liquor. Last week one could go to indulgences a buy a bottle of Dewars, and have it in the cabin upon arrival. Someone reorts this has changed?

Mary

Having to order by the case was for specials orders of wine not normally sold onboard on HAL ships. Evidently a new policy one poster has reported when requesting to special order before a cruise.

[startwin]

I don't mind the comments, both negative and positive on the HAL board. We travel often, mostly land travel and I understand that we all have expectations and varying experiences. When I read a review for a hotel or restaurant I will see those that love the experience and those that disliked the experience and those somewhere in the middle. As long as I am comfortable with often reported problems I will book. If the problems are more than I can bear then I will look elsewhere.

While planning for this cruise I found the information on CC to be invaluable. Yes some comments were extremely negative and over time I found that certain posters were often negative but the majority of the time people were giving their opinion and frankly what else do we have to give. The term unbiased opinion is really an oxymoron. So we need to take what we can and leave the rest and yes....this is just my opinion. :D

 

That pretty much sums it up.:)

[PathfinderEss]

HAL doesn't even treat all of us equally on the ships.

 

I have mentioned this incident a few times -- and it is only one of many incidents we have experienced recently on HAL.

 

ALL suite guests are suppose to be invited to the suite lunch. At the end of the first segment of a Collectors Cruise, everyone got a comment card and we mentioned that we were disappointed that there wasn't a suite lunch. When we returned from going through immigration, our concierge told us that indeed there had been a suite lunch. So we inquired as to why we were not invited. Got all kinds of song and dance on the ship. Now to explain a little more, for each suite function, the concierges have a check list and as each person turns in the RSVP card, they mark off whether or not you are going to attend. No one bother to check to see if our name was marked as attending or not attending. The one concierge had left at the end of the first segment and the second concierge had no idea what happened.

 

Several other incidents happened on that cruise as well. And when we got home we wrote a letter to the president. That was the first part of December 2011. After we got home from a cruise in March 2012, a letter arrived from HAL.

 

It basically was a joke -- they hemmed-hawed around all our issues and basically said that they felt we would be better off sailing on another cruise line. That letter prompted us to cancel several cruises.

 

We like HAL -- over 800 days -- and sadly a letter like that has left a bitter taste in our mouths.

 

I could go on and on ..........

 

You are absolutely right KK, being a high day Mariner is almost like the kiss of death anymore on Hal. We were elevated to '5' star before our last cruise and it was so bad, I really wanted to give that extra star back. We got treated better when we were '4' star. I thought about writing Hal but figured they really wouldn't care.

 

I know Hal is always looking for new business, while trying to hang on to their old clientele. So they are trying to give perks on both ends of the spectrum, is it becoming to hard for them to do either well? Could they be actually setting themselves up for all the negatives coming across the boards of late?

 

Sails I love your post and think it should be sent to the President of Hal, and I will under sign it.

[OVgirl]

I still think their business model has to change. It's seems that what they are doing now is not working for them. That's why we are starting to see a number of things changing (All you can drink bev. packages, carry on wine limits, cabanas being added, charge/family style for Canaletto, Explore4 with increased pricing). The bottom line is $$$, so they need to increase revenue.

[cruisemom42]

As for HAL specifically, there does seem to be more current displeasure than on other boards. My take -- again as a relative outsider is this...for many, many years HAL has provided an outstanding product and level of service to devoted cruisers. Is HAL for everybody? No, but for seasoned and demanding travelers the HAL product was perfect, so Holland America had found their niche and they were giving the customers what they wanted and expected. Now, for whatever reason, HAL is implementing some rather drastic changes, and they seem to be changing many things at once. Combine the changes with some pretty severe maintenance/mechanical problems on certain ships, and you have thread after thread of unhappy people. The unhappy threads are noticeably more prevalent here than they are on a board like Royal Caribbean's or Carnival's because there are fewer posters and fewer ships to discuss.

It does seem to me that HAL is trying to be more like everybody else, and that's worrisome. I think every cruise line needs to have some areas where they stand apart from the competition. I hate to see Holland America apparently doing away with the things that made them unique in the market. It makes me wonder what's next. Perhaps they're just trying to do the things they feel will allow them to remain competitive, and we won't see any more changes for a while...time will tell.

 

Very interesting and thoughtful post. I tend to agree with most of your points.

 

It seems like HAL has two opposing sets of customers judging from what I read here.

 

Some are "value sensitive" and basically don't care if HAL is making drastic cutbacks in a lot of areas onboard, so long as cabin prices remain at rock-bottom levels.

 

Others would not mind much if HAL increased prices somewhat if that meant they could maintain more of the things they were once known for (and of course, maintain their ships in good condition).

 

I don't believe the twain shall ever meet and -- even if it is unspoken -- I suspect those divergent concerns drive a lot of the negativity and back-and-forth on these boards.

[Gsel]

IMHO we "oldtimers" on HAL expected our loyalty to be returned. Now we find out the reality is not what we expected. All of those stars and days we so innocently thought would mean something are worth nothing and HAL would rather just get rid of us. Sail, I don't often agree with you but in this case I agree completely. Your words could not have been put in a better way.

[Lovely other]

I'm new here and I've never sailed on HAL before, to be honest if I'd have come here before booking I may have no done so. Having had terribly bad cruise experience elsewhere I felt booking with someone with HAL's reputation would be the best guarantee of not bring disappointed.

 

My holiday is precious to me, I love to travel but haven't been able to do so for a while due to severe illness, which in turn means I have to get the best value possible as cash is short. I thought I had made the best choice and then I came on here ... To be honest I started to panic about my choice but the obvious loyalty of other posters particularly the OP made me feel a little less anxious.

 

I was mainly looking here for tips, inside info, good advice. I'm already dreading the fact that I'm in an inside cabin and I was hoping to find happy stuff to calm my anxious mind.

 

I hope to see more jolly stuff soon. Oh by the way the funny cruise stories made me giggle :D

[summersigh]

We've got a 7 day HAL cruise booked for Nov - at a cheaper price than either of the previous 2 HAL 7 day cruises (for the same type of cabin). Some of the lines folks compare HAL to are considerably more expensive. We've found RCCL is comparable and is of a similar price structure and similar passenger type. Both lines seem to have the same ups and downs - and we had a delightful time on each line.

 

:D If one desires to raise their appreciation for HAL ... set sail on CCL and let me know how you feel afterwrds :D (We always have a good time cruising but amenity-wise it just didn't even begin to compare to HAL or RCCL) A nice touch :rolleyes: was when the crowd packed into the MDR lobby would cheer loudly each night when the doors were opened ***groan*** Also, one might enjoy the endless Carnival Cruise Critic threads discussing the various means one might employ to sneak hard alcohol aboard. :p

 

I think that our culture in general is more prone to complain loudly when something falls short of expectation - yet often "whisper" about a good trip or share the pleased information via other means. Other CC boards seem to be the same (Cunard, RCCL, CCL as well as HAL). I've learned to take what's said with a grain of salt and verify negatives that might affect me. As I do with Travelocity Reviews .... I read many on a topic - throw out the best 2 and worst 2 and make a decision from there.

[summersigh]

My holiday is precious to me, I love to travel but haven't been able to do so for a while due to severe illness, which in turn means I have to get the best value possible as cash is short. I thought I had made the best choice and then I came on here ... To be honest I started to panic about my choice but the obvious loyalty of other posters particularly the OP made me feel a little less anxious.

I believe that you'll have a wonderful Holiday with HAL !!

[arewethereyet]

I'm new here and I've never sailed on HAL before, to be honest if I'd have come here before booking I may have no done so. Having had terribly bad cruise experience elsewhere I felt booking with someone with HAL's reputation would be the best guarantee of not bring disappointed.

 

My holiday is precious to me, I love to travel but haven't been able to do so for a while due to severe illness, which in turn means I have to get the best value possible as cash is short. I thought I had made the best choice and then I came on here ... To be honest I started to panic about my choice but the obvious loyalty of other posters particularly the OP made me feel a little less anxious.

 

I was mainly looking here for tips, inside info, good advice. I'm already dreading the fact that I'm in an inside cabin and I was hoping to find happy stuff to calm my anxious mind.

 

I hope to see more jolly stuff soon. Oh by the way the funny cruise stories made me giggle :D

Despite whatever shortcomings I have isues with on HAL, I have never had a bad cruise on our many HAL cruises over the years. Don't let griping turn you off. CC is a place to air the negative and the positive.

[cruisemom42]

 

It looks to me that the problem is with the marketing strategy of the company. They want to encourage repeat cruising by extolling the value of being a Mariner, but really give nothing for that loyalty.

 

So, it looks to me like they need to shake up their staffing in the marketing/sales department.

They have to give their repeat Mariners credit for being aware of the inequality in their sales tactics.

 

Or has the Mariner program worked so well for them, that they will not be profitable giving financial incentive to this high percentage of repeat cruisers?

 

"There is something wrong......"

 

 

You are absolutely right KK, being a high day Mariner is almost like the kiss of death anymore on Hal. We were elevated to '5' star before our last cruise and it was so bad, I really wanted to give that extra star back. We got treated better when we were '4' star. I thought about writing Hal but figured they really wouldn't care.

 

I know Hal is always looking for new business, while trying to hang on to their old clientele. So they are trying to give perks on both ends of the spectrum, is it becoming to hard for them to do either well? Could they be actually setting themselves up for all the negatives coming across the boards of late?

 

Sails I love your post and think it should be sent to the President of Hal, and I will under sign it.

 

 

Hasn't Bruce Muzz posted many times that cruise ships value new (or relatively new) passengers much more than repeat cruisers?

 

His reason for saying this is that new cruisers spend more money on board, on average. (Please, don't everyone post and say how much money YOU personally spend on board ship -- the cruise lines keep tabs on these things and they look at overall patterns, not individual exceptions.)

 

They purchase more pictures, spend more on spa treatments and in the casino, have higher bar tabs and buy more excursions from the ship.

 

The cruise lines have long admitted that their business model is to sell cabins cheaply and make money on the extras. Given this data, of course they would prefer to pack the ship with newcomers that spend more per person on average.

 

Given this model, there is no reason for HAL to really "value" Mariners or spend much money to retain their loyalty. It's a business where loyalty doesn't pay because of the way the model is set up.

[sammiedawg]

Great post Sail!

The recession and fuel costs hurt mass market cruise lines, Holland may have been hit harder because they have an aging fleet of medium sized ships. They are not as competitive in the marketplace and operating costs are higher. Holland also has the industry's oldest demographic ( don't yell at me I am aging too) and younger people may want to try newer, flashier ships. Their loyalty program is laughable. We are elite on Princess and get so many perks, I feel they really value my business. As a 3 star mariner we qualify for some discounts to purchase some onboard junk and eat in a specialty restaurant.

[whogo]

"There is Something Very Wrong and I Don't Know What it Is........"

 

Seems like you listed the reasons pretty well. There has been a lot of bad news from HAL and no enhancements. Ain't no sunshine. People are singing the blues.

 

I am still considering a few HAL cruises based on itinerary and price.

 

I don't drink wine, but thought the policy should not change for those already booked.

 

My cruises are not included in the Explore4. No surprise there, I rarely qualify for over-hyped benefits. The Explore4 program is worth only about $50 per week to me.

 

Loyalty program? I will not book if a new customer would get a lower price. The up sells I have been offered have been no bargain, but we enjoyed a very nice free upgrade on our last cruise.

 

I do not care about the cruise atlas. I could pick one up if I wanted one.

 

I dine less often in the Lido without trays. The main dining room is a great alternative.

 

I balance unwanted added cabins, reserved deck chairs, missing pools, and megascreens against my interest in an itinerary. I expect the worst from air conditioning and plumbing and am pleased when things go better than they could. Whatever happens, I figure I will continue an unbroken record of great cruises.

[RetiredMustang]

I am what many may consider an "old-timer" with HAL, having sailed since the old Noordam III in 1996. A lot of things have indeed changed over the years, some favorite things have gone, and I have done my share of saying so. But, we can also now board the ship when we arrive at port, and not wait in a cavernous hall until 2 p.m. to have our picture taken with a woman in Dutch outfit before we board. When we board, we can go to our cabins. We can book excursions on line, etc., etc.

 

A little story: DW and I were on Noordam this February, and pulled into St. Thomas. Instead of Crown Bay, Noordam berthed at Havensight, something we had not done in a decade or more. So, we rode the lift to the top of Paradise Point, and had a drink on the terrace of the bar, while overlooking the entire sweep of Charlotte Amalie harbor. We and some other long-time HAL cruisers were discussing what had gone downhill with HAL over the years.

 

Later, DW and I discussed what we had done; we had spent thousands of dollars, and found ourselves in a magic place with a trillion-dollar view on a perfect sunlit day ... and bi***ed and moaned about it. We agreed we would not do that again. We embark in a couple of weeks on a fabulous journey on board the wonderful Eurodam. We will not be blind to the things that may go wrong (and I will probably tell you about them in a blog) ... but we will enjoy the experience of sailing on a ship of a line that is not what it used to be but is still a good one.

 

For years, my CC sig has had a quotation from the poem "Ulysses." I am reminded of another passage from that poem:

 

"Though we are not that strength which in olden times moved heaven and earth, that which we are, we are: One even temper of heroic heart, made weak with time and age, yet strong in will! To seek, to find ... and not to yield."

 

Dave

[sail7seas]

Very interesting and thoughtful post. I tend to agree with most of your points.

 

It seems like HAL has two opposing sets of customers judging from what I read here.

 

Some are "value sensitive" and basically don't care if HAL is making drastic cutbacks in a lot of areas onboard, so long as cabin prices remain at rock-bottom levels.

 

You read that in this thread? :confused: I must have missed it.

 

 

 

 

Others would not mind much if HAL increased prices somewhat if that meant they could maintain more of the things they were once known for (and of course, maintain their ships in good condition).

 

 

Same for this........ I never saw this written. I'll reread the posts.

 

 

 

 

I don't believe the twain shall ever meet and -- even if it is unspoken -- I suspect those divergent concerns drive a lot of the negativity and back-and-forth on these boards.

[wander]

I am puzzled about the experiences many report here. My cruise experiences just do not mesh with what many write. I AM not saying that they were wrong - I believe their experiences. However, then folks tend to generalize - a Chicken Little process. That I have trouble with. In my experiences with a number of cruise lines, numerous things on a specific cruise are a matter of who the Hotel Manager is, Dining Room Manager and even the Captain. For example, on my last cruise, half way through the Hotel Manger changes - and a number of policies and practices changed as well. Better? Worse? depends on your perspective.

 

Is all the same as 5-10-15 years ago - NO, but not much in the world is.

 

There are several longer term posters on this board that I previously had nothing but good thoughts about but recently I get the feeling that some of you are more interested in trashing HAL, and chasing away newbies to HAL rather than helping others. What a "wonderful" (sarcasm folks) way to bring about positive change!!!!!!

 

One thing I found in talking with folks on the ship in April/May 2013, several commented that they had given up on Cruise Critic because of the seemingly increasing amount of consistent complaining. They had no problem with negative reports about actual experiences, but the then piling on of rehashing old problems or continuing to "beat the horse" got too much for them. (Yes, I know you can simply stop reading, but sometimes say - why bother at all.) So may threads start out just fine, but then they deteriorate.

[sail7seas]

I believe that you'll have a wonderful Holiday with HAL !!

 

 

Lovely Other.......

 

I agree......

 

HAL still provides a wonderful cruise.

They have the best crews at sea, IMO

 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

You read that in this thread? :confused: I must have missed it.

 

 

 

 

Same for this........ I never saw this written. I'll reread the posts.

 

 

My "here" meant on this board, not on this thread.

[startwin]

I am puzzled about the experiences many report here. My cruise experiences just do not mesh with what many write. I AM not saying that they were wrong - I believe their experiences. However, then folks tend to generalize - a Chicken Little process. That I have trouble with. In my experiences with a number of cruise lines, numerous things on a specific cruise are a matter of who the Hotel Manager is, Dining Room Manager and even the Captain. For example, on my last cruise, half way through the Hotel Manger changes - and a number of policies and practices changed as well. Better? Worse? depends on your perspective.

 

Is all the same as 5-10-15 years ago - NO, but not much in the world is.

 

There are several longer term posters on this board that I previously had nothing but good thoughts about but recently I get the feeling that some of you are more interested in trashing HAL, and chasing away newbies to HAL rather than helping others. What a "wonderful" (sarcasm folks) way to bring about positive change!!!!!!

 

One thing I found in talking with folks on the ship in April/May 2013, several commented that they had given up on Cruise Critic because of the seemingly increasing amount of consistent complaining. They had no problem with negative reports about actual experiences, but the then piling on of rehashing old problems or continuing to "beat the horse" got too much for them. (Yes, I know you can simply stop reading, but sometimes say - why bother at all.) So may threads start out just fine, but then they deteriorate.

 

I think it's not so much the original "complaining" post that is the problem, but rather in the way it is received on this forum. There is far too much trashing of posters who report issues onboard.

 

Some may remember my (sort of) "Live from...." thread on the Zuiderdam last year. I reported back on the non-working toilet, and the air conditioning problems, for pretty much all of our 22-day cruise. I was immediately pounced on and lost count of the negative responses (though I still chuckle over being called a "petulant troll":D) However anyone who cared to read the whole thread also read that we had a heck of a good cruise, in spite of it all. Few responses to that aspect of the thread. Just the flag-wavers continually doubting my word and calling me a "whiner" - yes I hate that word.

 

FWIW - because of the great time we had, I'm also booked on the same ship for the same cruise for next year. I'll let you know if things have improved since the last time - if we don't cancel. Though I will likely find out quicker - I'm also on the Zuiderdam at the end of this month, to Alaska. That cruise was well past final payment date when HAL tried to dump the new wine policy on us, but they certainly didn't alert us to it. Only thanks to Lisa that we even heard about it.

[oaktreerb]

Our last two HAL cruises were misfires, due to a) ship managers complete lack of care and follow-up and b) idiotic me-first, demanding pax. It is a combo that can sink a company.

 

If it wasn't a lack of care, it is inept training at customer relations and that's even worse. When we call Seattle, you'll get five completely different answers on five calls.

 

HAL is in transition, and frankly IMO failing pretty miserable during the period. Changes are needed in the training levels.

 

Our only HAL cruise booed is next month on Eurodam. It very well might be our last.

I just got off the Eurodam. 22 days of great food and excellent service. I hope you enjoy the best this ship and crew have to offer.