There is Something Very Wrong and I Don't Know What it Is........

[boaterette]

Great post Sail!

The recession and fuel costs hurt mass market cruise lines, Holland may have been hit harder because they have an aging fleet of medium sized ships. They are not as competitive in the marketplace and operating costs are higher. Holland also has the industry's oldest demographic ( don't yell at me I am aging too) and younger people may want to try newer, flashier ships. Their loyalty program is laughable. We are elite on Princess and get so many perks, I feel they really value my business. As a 3 star mariner we qualify for some discounts to purchase some onboard junk and eat in a specialty restaurant.

 

And unfortunatly at some point in time the older demographics will not be sailing anymore. And if Hal does not make changes now they will not attract a younger crowd and will cease to exist. I think Princess has a younger affluent target market and are doing well. Hal has always targeted the older affluent traveler. Changing a company image is one of the hardest things to do. A lot of people who are entering the retirement age and have time to travel now grew up in the rock and roll era. Not listening to string quartets. And while I think it is true that new cruisers spend more I think that most new cruisers on Hal are ones moving up from different lines. So they have already experienced the buying and spending. They are not attracting new cruisers per se like Carnival or Rccl. So cost cutting and generating more revenue by limiting wine brought on board is just one way that they can remain competitive. Just my opinion and I could be wrong. :D

[sail7seas]

I think it's not so much the original "complaining" post that is the problem, but rather in the way it is received on this forum. There is far too much trashing of posters who report issues onboard.

 

Some may remember my (sort of) "Live from...." thread on the Zuiderdam last year. I reported back on the non-working toilet, and the air conditioning problems, for pretty much all of our 22-day cruise. I was immediately pounced on and lost count of the negative responses (though I still chuckle over being called a "petulant troll":D) However anyone who cared to read the whole thread also read that we had a heck of a good cruise, in spite of it all. Few responses to that aspect of the thread. Just the flag-wavers continually doubting my word and calling me a "whiner" - yes I hate that word.

 

FWIW - because of the great time we had, I'm also booked on the same ship for the same cruise for next year. I'll let you know if things have improved since the last time - if we don't cancel. Though I will likely find out quicker - I'm also on the Zuiderdam at the end of this month, to Alaska. That cruise was well past final payment date when HAL tried to dump the new wine policy on us, but they certainly didn't alert us to it. Only thanks to Lisa that we even heard about it.

 

 

I remember that thread and it amazed me how you managed to continue to enjoy your cruise despite the problems in your cabin and it also amazed me how much guff you took for telling what you were experiencing.

 

Hope your next ZUDM is wonderful in every way. :)

 

[iancal]

We are cruise line agnostic. Don't care what cruise line as long as the ship is right. We cannot imagine being loyal to a commercial enterprise-we are only loyal to the specific product at a specific point in time simply because circumstances change so rapidly.

 

I would say over that past few years the HAL value proposition has decreased for us-based on our tastes and preferences. At the same time, the value proposition of a few other ships/cruise lines have actually increased.

 

I am certain that on one at HAL really cares about us, one customer, but the challenge for the industry is that if you done care about one guest, what guests do you care about. Because if you do not care about any, you soon will not have enough to remain in business.

[serendipity1499]

Things have never been quite the same since the Carnivalization began.

 

I'm stumped & do not know what this means..Would you be kind enough to explain it to us.. :confused:

Carnival Corp & PLC (not Carnival Cruise Lines) acquired HAL, which is an autonomous company in 1989..

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=200767&p=irol-history

Where is HAL becoming like Carnival Cruise Lines? We have 16 cruises on HAL & don't understand what anyone means when they blame Carnival which is a completely different product than HAL is selling..

IMO HAL has not raised basic cabin prices to keep up with inflation..The cabin prices have remained the same for us since we first cruised on HAL 15 years ago..The reason may be because our economy has been so depressed & is now just starting to come back..

We're still happy HAL customers even though there have been changes..

IMO HAL should probably start to raise their prices but until HAL raises their prices..Until they do service will suffer..

Hal's biggest mistake was trying to make changes so rapidly..Their customers should be given advance notice of those changes..

Cheers...Betty

[SilvertoGold]

You are absolutely right KK, being a high day Mariner is almost like the kiss of death anymore on Hal. We were elevated to '5' star before our last cruise and it was so bad, I really wanted to give that extra star back. We got treated better when we were '4' star. I thought about writing Hal but figured they really wouldn't care.

 

I know Hal is always looking for new business, while trying to hang on to their old clientele. So they are trying to give perks on both ends of the spectrum, is it becoming to hard for them to do either well? Could they be actually setting themselves up for all the negatives coming across the boards of late?

 

Sails I love your post and think it should be sent to the President of Hal, and I will under sign it.

 

Melodie

 

I am so sorry your new 5 star status was a bad expeience for you! That is terrible and the exact opposite of what it could have been.

 

I do not understand why HAL cannot get their act together and be more consistent!

 

On our last cruise we got the distinct impression that 5 stars "meant" something: we were treated superbly by the Front Desk, DR, Pinnacle, Culinary Arts Hostess, Executive Chef, Assistant GRM (just to mention some I distinctly remember). A fair bit different from being a mere 4 star!

 

Maybe this was the ship (Zaandam), the specific crew, the HD or word from on high (Seattle) about how to handle this new level. All I know is it worked well!

 

Next cruise, we have no expectations. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised, maybe there will be no consistency.

 

We hope your Statendam cruise is the best!!

[rkacruiser]

I am soon to depart for Amsterdam in order to embark the Eurodam. I anticipate an excellent cruise experience, just as I have done in the past for each and every cruise I have taken. Have all of them been excellent? Most have been, but there have been those where either because of the choices I made or because of a slip-up by someone on the ship, it could have been a better experience. (My worst experience for those who thinks things are bad now was a crossing on the QE2 in 1980 when there were employee union difficulties.)

 

Why are some experiences better than others? The leadership of the ship makes a huge difference, in my opinion. Who the Captain, Hotel Manager, Dining Room Manager, Culinary Operations Manager, Bar Manager, and Chief Housekeeper is makes the difference in the on-board product offered to the guest.

 

I cannot say anything negative about my dealings with HQ in Seattle. I have never had anything but positive experiences with any contacts I have had with them.

 

Am I concerned about some of the changes being discussed? Yes, I am with the one dealing with pricing issues for Mariners being my most major concern.

 

I am going to view my up-coming cruise on the Eurodam through the eyes of my traveling companion. This will be her longest cruise. And, she does not frequent Cruise Critic, so she is not aware of what has been discussed. I am not going to look for problems. Because, problems will appear soon enough, if there are any, through either her experience or my experience.

 

Upon my return, I will try to post my experiences on my Baltic and Viking Passage Collector's Cruise.

[voyageur9]

Consider the numbers. The following are quick 'back of the envelope' calculations so take them with a pinch of sea salt.

 

HAL's current 15-ship fleet capacity is about 24,000 passengers. Assume the fleet averages 350 revenue days annually and that the average cruise length is 10 days. That's more than 400,000 cruises available (again assuming full capacity and most cabins being sold to a pair of occupants) every year. So more than 3/4 of a million people will spend a week or more on a HAL ship this year.

 

By comparison, maybe a few hundred people are grumbling, maybe a few dozen of them on CC. That doesn't mean everyone else is happy but all HAL needs is sufficient new and repeat business to keep occupancy levels high and per-capita revenue growing.

 

From HAL's point of view, maximizing revenue per cabin per cruise is paramount and probably makes the difference in a highly-competitive industry between turning a small profit and sinking in a sea of red ink.

 

Anyone want to venture a guess as to the revenue value and (even tougher to calculate) the profits derived from the tiny minority of 4- and 5-star Mariners who think their loyalty is insufficiently repaid.

[solocanadian]

HAL doesn't even treat all of us equally on the ships.

I have mentioned this incident a few times -- and it is only one of many incidents we have experienced recently on HAL.

ALL suite guests are suppose to be invited to the suite lunch. At the end of the first segment of a Collectors Cruise, everyone got a comment card and we mentioned that we were disappointed that there wasn't a suite lunch. When we returned from going through immigration, our concierge told us that indeed there had been a suite lunch. So we inquired as to why we were not invited. Got all kinds of song and dance on the ship. Now to explain a little more, for each suite function, the concierges have a check list and as each person turns in the RSVP card, they mark off whether or not you are going to attend. No one bother to check to see if our name was marked as attending or not attending. The one concierge had left at the end of the first segment and the second concierge had no idea what happened.

Several other incidents happened on that cruise as well. And when we got home we wrote a letter to the president. That was the first part of December 2011. After we got home from a cruise in March 2012, a letter arrived from HAL.

It basically was a joke -- they hemmed-hawed around all our issues and basically said that they felt we would be better off sailing on another cruise line. That letter prompted us to cancel several cruises.

We like HAL -- over 800 days -- and sadly a letter like that has left a bitter taste in our mouths.

I could go on and on ..........

YIKES!:eek:

[solocanadian]

You are absolutely right KK, being a high day Mariner is almost like the kiss of death anymore on Hal. We were elevated to '5' star before our last cruise and it was so bad, I really wanted to give that extra star back. We got treated better when we were '4' star. I thought about writing Hal but figured they really wouldn't care.

 

I know Hal is always looking for new business, while trying to hang on to their old clientele. So they are trying to give perks on both ends of the spectrum, is it becoming to hard for them to do either well? Could they be actually setting themselves up for all the negatives coming across the boards of late?

 

Sails I love your post and think it should be sent to the President of Hal, and I will under sign it.

Melodie: I think the problems you encountered on your last cruise was the ship. I was not the least bit impressed with the Zuiderdam nor the service. Sorry I spent my money on that cruise.

[smokinmike]

We will turn three star on our fourteen day cruise in December aboard Maasdam. We anticipate having a great time. We don't anticipate that having three stars in a loyalty club will either keep us with HAL or prevent us from seeking out other "big ship" cruise lines. Holland America will have to earn our business - each time we choose a large ship cruise.

 

I will say this - the luxe lines are looking more friendly.

[momatibm]

We've been on HAL exclusively since 1988 -- have things changed -- yes. However, I've basically stopped posting since everything I've posted has been challenged, debased, to the point of harassing my grandson. That is basically the reason I don't post on CC anymore. I do read Sail's comments, which is why I am here. However most of the rest of the threads have been turning into personal attacks -- I can avoid those.

[May4]

I am a frequent reader of the CC Holland America message board but I don't post nearly as much as I once did. The reason, odd as it may seem, is that I remain quite happy with my experiences when we sail. I stopped posting because I didn't suppose that it would be interesting to say what a great times we've had. We continue to feel relaxed, well treated, and believe that we've received good value for our money. But maybe I should say so more often.

 

I started sailing a dozen years ago and know that the company makes changes from time to time, but I truly find that the experience has gotten better. Of course we used to book inside cabins but now we book Neptune Suites. That might have something to do with it!

 

I know milage may vary, but we've sailed many times as, and been treated very well as 5-Star Mariners. The spa pass, the cooking classes, hosted table at the Mariner Luncheon, are favorites.

 

We even got an opportunity to take a generous up sale offer to a penthouse on the Rotterdam. IT WAS FABULOUS.

 

The crew, food, entertainment, management, etc., continue to be wonderful.

 

We have five cruises booked at the moment but are dreaming of some other

great trips for a year from now. Life is good.

 

I'm grateful to be able to travel the world and experience cruising on

Holland America.

[RetiredMustang]

I am soon to depart for Amsterdam in order to embark the Eurodam. I anticipate an excellent cruise experience, just as I have done in the past for each and every cruise I have taken. ...

 

Bob,

 

See you soon! I envy your Baltic cruise before we join you. Looking forward to meeting you at the M & G.

 

Dave

[OlsSalt]

.......

What in the world is going on with HAL and HAL's cruisers?

Surely it has to be me but I have never read of so much displeasure about something that is supposed to be fun and happy and exciting and relaxing and a treat.........

 

......

Where did all the fun go? :confused:

 

We are four star Mariners and still love HAL and not a single recent change HAL has made affected us one bit. We travel for travel's sake. And HAL still delivers: itineraries, comfortable cabins, great crew and a level of professionalism we have always enjoyed. So a lot of the recent displeasure affects only some HAL passengers; not all.

[OlsSalt]

Consider the numbers. The following are quick 'back of the envelope' calculations so take them with a pinch of sea salt.

 

HAL's current 15-ship fleet capacity is about 24,000 passengers. Assume the fleet averages 350 revenue days annually and that the average cruise length is 10 days. That's more than 400,000 cruises available (again assuming full capacity and most cabins being sold to a pair of occupants) every year. So more than 3/4 of a million people will spend a week or more on a HAL ship this year.

 

By comparison, maybe a few hundred people are grumbling, maybe a few dozen of them on CC. That doesn't mean everyone else is happy but all HAL needs is sufficient new and repeat business to keep occupancy levels high and per-capita revenue growing.

 

From HAL's point of view, maximizing revenue per cabin per cruise is paramount and probably makes the difference in a highly-competitive industry between turning a small profit and sinking in a sea of red ink.

 

Anyone want to venture a guess as to the revenue value and (even tougher to calculate) the profits derived from the tiny minority of 4- and 5-star Mariners who think their loyalty is insufficiently repaid.

 

Thank you for presenting this far more objective perspective.

[sail7seas]

We are four star Mariners and still love HAL and not a single recent change HAL has made affected us one bit. We travel for travel's sake. And HAL still delivers: itineraries, comfortable cabins, great crew and a level of professionalism we have always enjoyed. So a lot of the recent displeasure affects only some HAL passengers; not all.

 

 

I love this post.

Thank you. :)

[kazu]

I am soon to depart for Amsterdam in order to embark the Eurodam. I anticipate an excellent cruise experience, just as I have done in the past for each and every cruise I have taken. Have all of them been excellent? Most have been, but there have been those where either because of the choices I made or because of a slip-up by someone on the ship, it could have been a better experience. (My worst experience for those who thinks things are bad now was a crossing on the QE2 in 1980 when there were employee union difficulties.)

 

Why are some experiences better than others? The leadership of the ship makes a huge difference, in my opinion. Who the Captain, Hotel Manager, Dining Room Manager, Culinary Operations Manager, Bar Manager, and Chief Housekeeper is makes the difference in the on-board product offered to the guest.

 

I cannot say anything negative about my dealings with HQ in Seattle. I have never had anything but positive experiences with any contacts I have had with them.

 

Am I concerned about some of the changes being discussed? Yes, I am with the one dealing with pricing issues for Mariners being my most major concern.

 

I am going to view my up-coming cruise on the Eurodam through the eyes of my traveling companion. This will be her longest cruise. And, she does not frequent Cruise Critic, so she is not aware of what has been discussed. I am not going to look for problems. Because, problems will appear soon enough, if there are any, through either her experience or my experience.

 

Upon my return, I will try to post my experiences on my Baltic and Viking Passage Collector's Cruise.

 

Looking forward to your review :) and hate to throw a bee in your bonnet of calculations but there are very few Prinsendam cruises that are 7 days. Most are much longer than that and most of us go much longer than that. My last one was only 31 days. I think the shortest was 16 days.

 

so all cruises aren't equal. but that's ok - we all look at things from our own perspective:D

[LindaM]

My "here" meant on this board, not on this thread.

 

I agree and know exactly what you are saying, Cruisemom!! I would say way more than half of the folks here balk at HAL raising prices. That's why HAL turned into a mediocre line, IMHO. The people paying big bucks for Prinsendam do not complain nearly as much.

 

If HAL would have given us warning about the wine policy change, instead of trying to institute it immediately, there wouldn't be this amount of negativity on this board. That set the tone. Even the non wine drinkers were shocked to find that HAL really didn't care about offending people and treating them as if they didn't matter. The damage has been done. I know I will never again feel that HAL really cares to keep it's customers. I used to think that cruiselines wanted us to be happy, so we'd keep coming back. I guess not.

[kazu]

And unfortunatly at some point in time the older demographics will not be sailing anymore. And if Hal does not make changes now they will not attract a younger crowd and will cease to exist. I think Princess has a younger affluent target market and are doing well. Hal has always targeted the older affluent traveler. Changing a company image is one of the hardest things to do. A lot of people who are entering the retirement age and have time to travel now grew up in the rock and roll era. Not listening to string quartets. And while I think it is true that new cruisers spend more I think that most new cruisers on Hal are ones moving up from different lines. So they have already experienced the buying and spending. They are not attracting new cruisers per se like Carnival or Rccl. So cost cutting and generating more revenue by limiting wine brought on board is just one way that they can remain competitive. Just my opinion and I could be wrong. :D

 

the people retiring right now are baby boomers still. that's the biggest demographic in the market anywhere. They have a long time to go and probably more money (available) generally speaking for any demographic.

 

Any cruise line that successfully hooks into this demographic will be afloat for a long time. Not to mention the children/grandchildren that may be brought on board.

[Krazy Kruizers]

You are absolutely right KK, being a high day Mariner is almost like the kiss of death anymore on Hal. We were elevated to '5' star before our last cruise and it was so bad, I really wanted to give that extra star back. We got treated better when we were '4' star. I thought about writing Hal but figured they really wouldn't care.

 

I know Hal is always looking for new business, while trying to hang on to their old clientele. So they are trying to give perks on both ends of the spectrum, is it becoming to hard for them to do either well? Could they be actually setting themselves up for all the negatives coming across the boards of late?

 

Sails I love your post and think it should be sent to the President of Hal, and I will under sign it.

 

I can remember when we had 100, 300, 500 days and were always invited to the VIP parties.

We always sail in either the PS or SA suites (like you) and on that disastrous cruise we weren't even invited to the VIP party (one more incident on that cruise).

HAL's captains, hotel directors and whomever are playing games and inviting whom they like.

It is like they roll out the red carpet for their favorite passengers and figure that some of us won't be sailing much longer on HAL -- so why bother with inviting the old geezers to anything.

[PathfinderEss]

Melodie

 

I am so sorry your new 5 star status was a bad expeience for you! That is terrible and the exact opposite of what it could have been.

 

I do not understand why HAL cannot get their act together and be more consistent!

 

On our last cruise we got the distinct impression that 5 stars "meant" something: we were treated superbly by the Front Desk, DR, Pinnacle, Culinary Arts Hostess, Executive Chef, Assistant GRM (just to mention some I distinctly remember). A fair bit different from being a mere 4 star!

 

Maybe this was the ship (Zaandam), the specific crew, the HD or word from on high (Seattle) about how to handle this new level. All I know is it worked well!

 

Next cruise, we have no expectations. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised, maybe there will be no consistency.

 

We hope your Statendam cruise is the best!!

 

Thanks Silver to Gold, our Zaandam cruise was awesome, it was the Zuiderdam cruise that failed miserably.

That is exactly what I'm trying to do too, go on the next one with no expectations.

[3rdGenCunarder]

I'm stumped & do not know what this means..Would you be kind enough to explain it to us.. :confused:

 

Carnival Corp & PLC (not Carnival Cruise Lines) acquired HAL, which is an autonomous company in 1989..

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=200767&p=irol-history

 

Where is HAL becoming like Carnival Cruise Lines? We have 16 cruises on HAL & don't understand what anyone means when they blame Carnival which is a completely different product than HAL is selling..

 

IMO HAL has not raised basic cabin prices to keep up with inflation..The cabin prices have remained the same for us since we first cruised on HAL 15 years ago..The reason may be because our economy has been so depressed & is now just starting to come back..

 

We're still happy HAL customers even though there have been changes..

 

IMO HAL should probably start to raise their prices but until HAL raises their prices..Until they do service will suffer..

 

Hal's biggest mistake was trying to make changes so rapidly..Their customers should be given advance notice of those changes..

 

Cheers...Betty

 

"Carnivalization" is usually a way of saying "doing things on the cheap." I suppose Carnival is responsible for some of the changes that people don't like, but it's economics, not an intent to make HAL into Carnival.

 

When Carnival bought HAL, they pretty much left it alone. Why have two identical companies, when you can hit two different market niches? And now, Carnival has many companies, each with its own niche.

 

It seems whenever something displeases passengers, they blame Carnival. It certainly happened on Cunard after Carnival bought the line. But to be fair, as someone has already posted, Carnival saved a broke HAL, and they saved Cunard. Without Mickey's deep pockets, there would be no QM2, and my beloved QE2 would never have sailed for 40 years.

 

I think the problems that people are complaining about are real. But they aren't entirely Carnival's fault. It's economics. I think the industry expanded too quickly. Fifteen, maybe more, years ago, the percent of the US population that had cruised was small, under 10 percent. The cruise industry saw that as a huge untapped population, and tried harder to get people to cruise. Landlubbers were wooed with "floating hotels" in which they'd be "guests" instead of "ships" in which they'd be "passengers."

 

Cruise lines built bigger and bigger ships with more and more snazzy attractions (flowrider? zipline?). But I think capacity grew faster than demand. this leads to price cutting. And price cutting leads to service cutting.

 

Our first cruises were on HAL in the 80s. Since then, we've sailed several lines and several ships. The cost of a cruise now isn't a lot more than it was when we started--I'm talking actual dollars NOT adjusted for inflation. And some of the offers are amazing. I get an email almost every day from HAL or Cunard. If we had the time to travel short notice this fall, we could go for dirt cheap.

 

So if the cruise is costing so little, how does the line make a profit? Charge for extras. Make you buy their wine instead of carrying on your own. Skimp on maintenance (toilet issues, AC issues). Get rid of most or all wine servers (you end up waiting ages for a glass of wine). Cut cabin steward staff (they're rushing all day and maybe forget things, like fresh towels or making your bed).

 

We're benefitting from low prices, but we're paying for it in other ways. And I'm sure it isn't just HAL that's facing this.

 

Personally, I've been lucky. My three recent HAL cruises were in the last 5 years. I always had a working toilet, and the AC was fine. Two out of three cruises we had excellent stewards and waiters. Two out of three cruises (same ones) we were in veranda suites. The one where the cabin stewards gave spotty service and our waiter was slow was the time we were in an OV. Pay more, get more. That's the way of cruising now.

 

As someone who has been cruising a long time, I have to say no, it isn't what it used to be. But I've learned to stop complaining about it (most of the time) because I can't change it.

[stlouistravelers]

Although I'm certain HAL does monitor the CC boards and Facebook religiously (if not, they should as any business does), the negative comments on these media are quite negligible. If you take into account that only 5% of cruisers are actually CC members and only a minute percentage of those post regularly, the negative comments we have seen recently tend to come from the same 10 or 12 people continually. They do get tiresome after a while and I do not know whether to consider them ranting or whining. Either way, if you continually threaten to move to another cruise line, please do so soon so that the rest of us can move on with our lives. Otherwise, you will soon be considered like "the boy/girl who cried wolf ..."

 

Hi

When in college we discussed the law of 300. Simply stated you invite 300 people to the most significant events in your life (wedding and funeral). Why this is important is that if you have 300 unhappy vocal people (cc board) and they make sure that the 300 in their sphere of influence know of their displeasure and they let 300 people know (facebook), (word or mouth)etc, etc etc. A company can go out of business or be hurt finicially if something drastic does not happen (chick filet's owner took a public stand on gay marriage and when the G and L demographic initiated a boycott the christian contingiant stepped in to support chick-filet [i assume that everyone has worked out their differences since I dont hear any more protest with this business]). HAL does not know how many of these unhappy people leave but with any business maintaining customers is much cheaper than trying to replace them. I'm sure that concerns are being monitored and if the chatter subsides they will monitor the repeat customers to see if it had an affect. MHO...whine whine whine, things might get better.

[R&CCruisers]

I just returned from a 7 day Volendam Cruise on the Inside Passage---a short cruise for me but was taking my family and that involved work and vacation time. Even though there have been cutbacks in service the cruise was great! I was at the Mariner's Brunch and Hotel Manager James Deering was our table host. When asked by someone at our table why certain things were happening on HAL ships he replied that usually it was because of behavior of many guests. I (as well as others at the table) was appalled to hear of the actions and demands of some guests. It seems we are living in a world of "I want" and to me it's very sad.

[cruisemom42]

 

So if the cruise is costing so little, how does the line make a profit? Charge for extras. Make you buy their wine instead of carrying on your own. Skimp on maintenance (toilet issues, AC issues). Get rid of most or all wine servers (you end up waiting ages for a glass of wine). Cut cabin steward staff (they're rushing all day and maybe forget things, like fresh towels or making your bed).

 

We're benefitting from low prices, but we're paying for it in other ways. And I'm sure it isn't just HAL that's facing this.

 

 

This is what I was trying to say, but you've put it more eloquently.