RCCL BOOKED A b2b now claims violates jones act HELP

[3dog]

I've read numerous legal sources that state the cruiseline can lose all permits to cruise US waters if they knowingly/intentionally break the PVSA. No line is going to chance that.

 

Please reference at least one. As of yet, I have found no statute that allows for access to be pulled or fines to increase due to either intentional or repeat PVSA violations.

[3dog]

I say that Celebrity can do more to make this right. It's their fault

 

Indeed. A violation of the PVSA is to the carrier and not to the passenger.

[Cruise Junky]

Please reference at least one. As of yet, I have found no statute that allows for access to be pulled or fines to increase due to either intentional or repeat PVSA violations.

 

Find it yourself, I have better things to do

[3dog]

Find it yourself, I have better things to do

 

Then don't make statements about how you have "read numerous legal sources", unless you are willing to provide at least one of them.

[WestLakeGirl]

I think they will allow it with an application on file for a downline disembark at Victoria.

[fleckle]

Okay, if I were the one to do it, the way I would want to go would be with Kenmore Air by seaplane.

 

Disembark the Solstice in Victoria on May 7.

 

Spend the night in the Empress Hotel right at the harbour.

 

The following morning, hop on a seaplane at the Victoria Inner Harbour that takes you to Lake Union, where you connect with a shuttle that drops you right at Seatac Airport (SEA).

 

From the schedule, it looks like the entire trip takes 2 hours, from departing Victoria to arriving at SEA.

 

45 minutes for the flight

1 hour 15 minutes for the shuttle to the airport

 

http://www.kenmoreair.com/Seattle-Victoria-Schedule

 

(Click on the Victoria, BC To Seattle tab)

 

So far their currently posted schedule only goes through next April.

 

For example, April 30 it would be $174.50 pp

depart Victoria 9:00 am, arrive SEA 11:00 am

 

The timing would be tight doing it this way, but it sure beats the alternatives, and it would be like getting an extra excursion included.

 

 

If I were in the OP's position and decided to book it this way, I would want assurance from the cruise line that they would pick up the costs of any changes if there should be a problem that would necessitate rescheduling the return trip.

 

But as I said in a previous post, it would be a very nice gesture if the cruise line would agree to give the OP at least one additional day for Victoria-Seattle and re-book their return flight as compensation, since they were the ones who screwed up their travel arrangements in the first place.

That would provide a little slack in the schedule for peace of mind.

 

 

Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but how nice it would be if they could have that first evening off the ship to explore a little of Victoria, fly the seaplane to Seattle the following morning, then have that day and evening to enjoy Seattle, spend the second night at a Seattle hotel, and fly home the following day.

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by fleckle

[chengkp75]

Please reference at least one. As of yet, I have found no statute that allows for access to be pulled or fines to increase due to either intentional or repeat PVSA violations.

 

You are most likely correct in that you cannot find a statute that refers to penalties for knowingly violating the PVSA. I dealt with the PVSA for the four years I worked on cruise ships, and deal with the Jones Act every day of my 40 years at sea. The problem is that the PVSA is enforced by CBP, and they can and do make their own procedures and regulations for implementing and enforcing the statutes assigned to them. I don't know if these regulations are public or not, or searchable on the web, I really don't want to spend my time that way. In a case where CBP can show that a cruise line has knowingly and willfully violated the PVSA, they will go to court to show criminal intent, and get the fine increased or a ban placed on the embarkation of passengers, much like in a homicide, showing intent can increase the charge or penalty.

 

As for the OP, I've posted several times on your thread on the general question forum. Since Celebrity is willing to disembark you in Victoria, and I've looked at flights, you can take an early morning flight from Victoria and catch your 1pm flight from Seattle. It may cause more jet lag than the original plan, but you won't lose money or 9 days cruising Alaska.

 

The second leg of the cruise can be sold as a Vancouver to Victoria cruise, however Celebrity needs to do it in their computer. It is passenger by passenger that CBP looks at PVSA violations. Even with a cruise that, as advertised, would violate the PVSA, the early disembarkation of the passenger in question would end the violation. Celebrity may have to pony up the fine to begin with, but after sending documentation to CBP that the passenger disembarked early, the fine would be refunded or rescinded. To them, the short term "loan" of $600 (two people) to CBP would be better than losing the revenue from the cruise.

 

Since the second cruise starts in Vancouver, it does not fall under the WHTI, so the embarkation passenger manifest is not used to pre-screen passengers during the cruise and therefore the cruise line is not in jeopardy of losing its "closed loop" status (quicker disembarkation screening by CBP) by allowing a passenger to disembark early. This is different from where the cruise lines have restricted early disembarkation recently, on closed loop cruises, because it then requires a full international arrival interview upon disembarkation (more like an airline arrival than a cruise ship arrival).

 

Another point that should be made whenever a discussion of the PVSA comes up is that it is the cruise line that is fined. CBP could care less who the passenger is, or what the circumstances are, they specifically state this on their website. It is only the language of the ticket contract that allows the cruise line to pass the fine to the passenger. CBP also states that they don't care about that, that's between you and the cruise line. However, if a passenger is disembarked as deceased, and this disembarkation violates the PVSA, the line will be fined, they will pass the fine to the family, but the family will need to deal directly with CBP to provide the paperwork to get the fine refunded. In medical or deceased disembarkation, many times the line will start the paperwork, just so the fine is never levied in the first place, but sometimes the family needs to go to CBP directly. Shows some of the inconsistencies of CBP.

[RickT]

To the OP, while I understand your frustration with Celebrity you need to understand there is no way they will allow you to stay on the ship and debark in Seattle.

 

Given that you really have only a couple choices.

 

1) Cancel part or all of your cruise - This is probably not the best idea as I cannot imagine that Celebrity will cover your current airfare.

2) Debark in Victoria - This is probably your best idea given you've indicated that Celebrity will cover the costs (sorry if I've misread that). As others have said you can spend a nice evening in Victoria (a wonderful place) and catch an early morning flight (Alaska air has at least 2 direct flights that would easily allow you to catch your original flight home). Rather than the thousands of dollars you mention this would be realively inexpensive even if Celebrity doesn't pick up 100% of the costs.

 

While the whole situation is disappointing I'm sure their contract has this situation covered by requiring the passenger to do their own due dilligence. It's your decision now to hold out for a solution that won't happen or work with them and throw out ideas that will allow you to come to a mutually satisfactory solution.

 

Please look at your options and try to make lemonaid out of this lemon.... and be sure to come back and let us know what you decide.

[AntjeG]

A note to the posters who suggested the OP could just leave it as it is and violate this law:

Even if Celebrity would be the one who gets fined/punished I would as a citizen of the European Union never dare to agree to such a thing. As an EU citizen you have to register via ESTA to be allowed to enter the US. During registration you agree that the person who decides if you are allowed into US territory is the immigration officer (even if your ESTA seems to grant entry to the US similar to a visa - it doesn´t). For Germany alone, about 700 of our citizens per year register with ESTA successfully and still get turned away at the US borders (having to go home at their own cost and having to pay cancellation fees to their American travel arrangements like hotels and so on). Immigration officers don´t give you a reason for being turned away. During ESTA registration you declare that you know you don´t have the right to question their decision or even file a lawsuit on this. As an EU citizen you start a trip to the US at your own risk.

Long story short: If the OP intends to spend another holiday in the US in the future she better not agree to anything that violates any law - even if it is not her fault. She might be turned away at the border next time.

Edited October 28, 2014 by AntjeG

[chengkp75]

A note to the posters who suggested the OP could just leave it as it is and violate this law:

Even if Celebrity would be the one who gets fined/punished I would as a citizen of the European Union never dare to agree to such a thing. As an EU citizen you have to register via ESTA to be allowed to enter the US. During registration you agree that the person who decides if you are allowed into US territory is the immigration officer (even if your ESTA seems to grant entry to the US similar to a visa - it doesn´t). For Germany alone, about 700 of our citizens per year register with ESTA successfully and still get turned away at the US borders (having to go home at their own cost and having to pay cancellation fees to their American travel arrangements like hotels and so on). Immigration officers don´t give you a reason for being turned away. During ESTA registration you declare that you know you don´t have the right to question their decision or even file a lawsuit on this. As an EU citizen you start a trip to the US at your own risk.

Long story short: If the OP intends to spend another holiday in the US in the future she better not agree to anything that violates any law - even if it is not her fault. She might be turned away at the border next time.

 

I believe you've misread the posts. The OP is a US citizen who lives in New England (Connecticut), despite the "London Bridge" screen name.

[Shmoo here]

A note to the posters who suggested the OP could just leave it as it is and violate this law:

Even if Celebrity would be the one who gets fined/punished I would as a citizen of the European Union never dare to agree to such a thing. As an EU citizen you have to register via ESTA to be allowed to enter the US. During registration you agree that the person who decides if you are allowed into US territory is the immigration officer (even if your ESTA seems to grant entry to the US similar to a visa - it doesn´t). For Germany alone, about 700 of our citizens per year register with ESTA successfully and still get turned away at the US borders (having to go home at their own cost and having to pay cancellation fees to their American travel arrangements like hotels and so on). Immigration officers don´t give you a reason for being turned away. During ESTA registration you declare that you know you don´t have the right to question their decision or even file a lawsuit on this. As an EU citizen you start a trip to the US at your own risk.

Long story short: If the OP intends to spend another holiday in the US in the future she better not agree to anything that violates any law - even if it is not her fault. She might be turned away at the border next time.

 

For those who missed it: OP lists her location as:

 

Location: New England

 

I realize the name "London Bridge" could be misleading, but the location seems to indicate she (as well as her husband) may be US citizens.

[AntjeG]

Sorry, somehow I missed the "New" in "New England" :mad:

Good for the OP so this Problem with ESTA and all doesn´t matter for her.

[RDC1]

It was Celebrity that suggested leaving the ship in Victoria - not the OP or PP.

 

An individual at Celebrity may have suggested that. Which as we all know an individual at a cruise line giving information does not necessarily make it true. Are they making a different cruise number for them at a different fare? Because the full booking would still flag in their computers as invalid. Are they refunding the extra day? What is the person that they talked to at Celebrity doing to indicate the change and that the booking is valid?

 

The point is that they would have to formally do something that indicates that they have booked a cruise to disembark in Victoria, because if all they have is the standard booking that still says ending in Seattle I can see all kinds of places where that could go wrong, including showing up and not being allowed to board. They would need something beyond just a customer service rep saying that they could and they would need that in writing. I would not assume it was valid unless it was actually reflected in the online booking.

[cruisestitch]

There are procedures for departing a cruise early, fod to fill out for a downline itinerary change. I'm guessing that the OP won't be the only person departing the ship in Victoria, many do that so the Canadian Customs and Border officials will not be unused to taking care of the necessary customs and immigration procedures. It is likely that this is what Celebrity has in mind for the OP. downline disembarkation. IS noted in the booking.

[CapeCodCruiser]

OP has not been on for 3 days - hopefully they can get this figured out. For me the option to debark in Victoria and travel on to Seattle is a no brainer - a minor hiccup in an otherwise lovely vacation.

 

Would love to hear what they decided.

[papaflamingo]

Not sure if this was covered, but the Victoria Clipper Ferry leaves Victoria for Seattle at 5 pm daily. It's less than $100 per person. If the ship gets in at 1:30 then no problem. The terminal is very close to the cruise port. If th OP gets off in Victoria, they can be downtown Seattle by 7:45 pm. The Ferry Terminal in Seattle is at Pier 69 just north of Pike Market. Get a hotel in Seattle. You could even cab to an airport hotel.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Not sure if this was covered, but the Victoria Clipper Ferry leaves Victoria for Seattle at 5 pm daily. It's less than $100 per person. If the ship gets in at 1:30 then no problem. The terminal is very close to the cruise port. If th OP gets off in Victoria, they can be downtown Seattle by 7:45 pm. The Ferry Terminal in Seattle is at Pier 69 just north of Pike Market. Get a hotel in Seattle. You could even cab to an airport hotel.

 

 

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The ship docks in Victoria at 7pm.

[varoo]

OP has not been on for 3 days - hopefully they can get this figured out. For me the option to debark in Victoria and travel on to Seattle is a no brainer - a minor hiccup in an otherwise lovely vacation.

I would also agree to either of the Victoria - Seattle flight options that have been suggested.

But no way would I want the hassles of doing the rental car - ferry - land drive thing when needing to fly home the very next day.

 

If the cruise line agrees to cover the seaplane ride from Victoria harbor with the shuttle connection to Seatac, then that would definitely be my preferred way and I would not hesitate to accept it.

 

[hcat]

Neither OP nor Celebrity can change the law, but since Celebrity agent accepted and processed the illegal booking on behalf of the cruise line, they should permit OP to cancel one of the cruises and pay for any lost and or extra airfare Or put them up for awhile til they can embark on a legal cruise for second leg....

 

Shocking that the agent was not properly informed which would have prevented the issue. If a private TA did this, seems it would be some type of misfeasance.......

[warmwinds]

Bear with me here. I know nothing about this.

 

But why can't a person book a cruise...

 

And then book another cruise....

 

And just not CALL it a b2b?

 

Do they check the names and say, oh, well, you're traveling with us from here to here, so you then can't travel with us from here to here.

 

What if they were just booked totally separately?

 

What if it was a person with...wait for it...the same name as you??

[Shmoo here]

Bear with me here. I know nothing about this.

 

But why can't a person book a cruise...

 

And then book another cruise....

 

And just not CALL it a b2b?

 

Do they check the names and say, oh, well, you're traveling with us from here to here, so you then can't travel with us from here to here.

 

What if they were just booked totally separately?

 

What if it was a person with...wait for it...the same name as you??

 

Because, when the manifests are submitted to the immigration/customs people for pre-screening, they will pop up as being a B2B. Even if booked at different times, under different reservation numbers. As noted, it matters not that each cruise is OK unto itself. It only matters where the person actually boards the ship and gets off the ship.

 

For example DCL next year is doing a Vancouver/Hawaii one way, followed by a Hawaii/Vancouver one way, followed by a Vancouver/San Diego repo cruise.

There were people who wanted to book the Hawaii/Vancouver B2B with the Vancouver/San Diego cruise. Can't be done, because passengers would be embarking in one US port and debarking in a different US port (with no distant foreign port stop). BUT, some people booked both Vancouver/Hawaii cruises followed by the Vancouver/San Diego cruise. That's OK, since the passengers are embarking in a foreign port and debarking in a US port.

 

As to "what if someone else with my name books the cruise after mine?" theory, since birthdates are generally also supplied, as well as passport/ID information, odds are that's not very likely to happen.

[crzndeb]

Bear with me here. I know nothing about this.

 

But why can't a person book a cruise...

 

And then book another cruise....

 

And just not CALL it a b2b?

 

Do they check the names and say, oh, well, you're traveling with us from here to here, so you then can't travel with us from here to here.

 

What if they were just booked totally separately?

 

What if it was a person with...wait for it...the same name as you??

 

 

Also as Shmoo mentioned, it's the point of embarkation and the point of debarkation, and what's in between. It doesn't have to be a B2B...it could be 10 cruises, or 20. The number is not the issue.

[fleckle]

Bear with me here. I know nothing about this.

 

But why can't a person book a cruise...

 

And then book another cruise....

 

And just not CALL it a b2b?

Yes, they can book it.

It does not matter in the slightest what they call it.

They are booked as two separate cruises.

Each has its own reservation number.

 

 

Do they check the names and say, oh, well, you're traveling with us from here to here, so you then can't travel with us from here to here.

 

What if they were just booked totally separately?

It does not matter when you book the cruises, even if you book them months apart.

 

(That happens to be exactly what happened to us. We had initially booked one cruise, learned about the other one much later, and innocently thought that it would be such a nice idea to add it on.

Little did we know.....)

 

They don't catch it until they compare the manifests, which does not happen until much later.

 

 

What if it was a person with...wait for it...the same name as you??

By the time they get around to checking, they also have your birth date and all your passport information, which needs to match up as well as the name.

 

 

When we initially book a cruise, it would be unrealistic for us to expect the agent who takes our reservation to be an expert on maritime law, familiar with all possible restrictions that may exist.

 

For that matter, we can book the cruises online ourselves without even speaking to an agent.

 

[Artemis]

hcat, the OP said this booking was made while onboard Radiance, so RCI mishandled from the git-go, which is why I think X should step up their assistance in problem-solving.

 

 

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[London Bridge]

hcat, the OP said this booking was made while onboard Radiance, so RCI mishandled from the git-go, which is why I think X should step up their assistance in problem-solving.

 

 

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First , thanks to all of you for your diligence and expertise in investigating our issue regarding violation of the PVSA / "Jones" Act. We really appreciate all the thought and research. We only wish the RCCL travel agent on board the Radiance had taken half as much care with booking our B2B despite us bringing up the question of a Jones Act Violation and being assured that this wasn't the case...Oh well...

 

As it stands now. With the ship docking in Victoria at 6PM our only option to keep the two cruises in tact is to debark in Victoria, stay one night in a hotel, and take a 6AM or 8AM flight to Seattle to catch our 1:15 plane. It sounds doable... Celebrity has so far offered to refund $200 each for the missed cruise night, which should cover hotel and transfers and $300 each to cover flights to Seattle or a ticket change should we cancel the second leg (Alaska) and fly home from Vancouver. Since the actual change in the ticket price is now $2000 that is not an option. A third option is to cancel both cruises and take a credit on Alaska Air/United for the air fare we purchase and also hope to get a refund on the B&B in Kaui we also booked pre-cruise...

 

My husband feels that Celebrity should refund the night on the ship plus cover the cost of a hotel for the inconvenience and loss of the night on the ship. He does not feel they should make us use our refund for this cost.

 

So there you have it! Thank you all again. You are great. Hope to see you on a cruse somewhere.