Are our cruising days over? (merged topics re: health and age restrictions)

[mimip]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

Age makes those health conditions worse.

The fact that some think this is age discrimination does not mean the courts will agree.  The commonly applied definition is the one by the EEOC.  

Not necessarily.  And apparently you haven’t been keeping up with the statistics.  Younger people are getting Covid 19 AND dying in greater numbers now.  

[Potstech]

Again waiting for some one with a law degree to add to the discussion.  So far no go.

[RocketMan275]

46 minutes ago, mimip said:

Not necessarily.  And apparently you haven’t been keeping up with the statistics.  Younger people are getting Covid 19 AND dying in greater numbers now.  

Hypothetically, let's accept your claim.  The implication then is that no one gets to cruise.  Is that what you want?

 

But, back to age discrimination.  The cruise line will provide testimony from physicians that allowing passengers over seventy with those conditions increases their liability due to their increased susceptibility to the virus and increased complications due to the virus.  For example, would cruise lines have to provide fully staffed Intensive Care Units?  A good lawyer would argue that the cruise line would have to know that these passengers might need this type of care disproportionately to their number.  The attorney would argue that the cruise lines failure to provide would constitute a financial liability.  Ultimately, it will come down to a question of whether the cruise lines can reasonably accommodate passengers in this category.

 

 

[DaveSJ711]

Hi, I'm Little Dave and I'm 5 years old.  My dad, Big Dave, tells me that cruising is great fun -- but only if you're old enough.  Some cruise lines don't even allow toddlers like me -- that's unfair!  And I don't get to drink what my dad calls the "hard stuff" -- that's discrimination!  I'm so angry, I would file a lawsuit -- if I only knew what that was.

[WmFCoyote]

This really has gone on long enough. All I am requesting is for Princess to make a statement on weather they will or will not require the FTS letter. It will allow me to make an educated decision on accepting a FCC if they will not be requiring the TFS letter or accepting nothing less than a full cash refund if they will require the FTS letter. I like and want to cruise but I do not wish to donate my funds to PCL if all they can do is provide a FCC and then deny me boarding.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, mimip said:

Not necessarily.  And apparently you haven’t been keeping up with the statistics.  Younger people are getting Covid 19 AND dying in greater numbers now.  

Here are some statistics:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm?s_cid=mm6915e3_w

 

Here are some excerpts:

 

The COVID-19–associated hospitalization rate among patients identified through COVID-NET for the 4-week period ending March 28, 2020, was 4.6 per 100,000 population (Figure 1). Hospitalization rates increased with age, with a rate of 0.3 in persons aged 0–4 years, 0.1 in those aged 5–17 years, 2.5 in those aged 18–49 years, 7.4 in those aged 50–64 years, and 13.8 in those aged ≥65 years. Rates were highest among persons aged ≥65 years, ranging from 12.2 in those aged 65–74 years to 17.2 in those aged ≥85 years. 

 

During March 1–30, underlying medical conditions and symptoms at admission were reported through COVID-NET for approximately 180 (12.1%) hospitalized adults (Table); 89.3% had one or more underlying conditions. The most commonly reported were hypertension (49.7%), obesity (48.3%), chronic lung disease (34.6%), diabetes mellitus (28.3%), and cardiovascular disease (27.8%). 

 

Clearly, based upon CDC data, there is reason to believe that hospitalization rates are directly dependent upon age and upon the comorbidities in question. 

[RocketMan275]

2 minutes ago, WmFCoyote said:

This really has gone on long enough. All I am requesting is for Princess to make a statement on weather they will or will not require the FTS letter. It will allow me to make an educated decision on accepting a FCC if they will not be requiring the TFS letter or accepting nothing less than a full cash refund if they will require the FTS letter. I like and want to cruise but I do not wish to donate my funds to PCL if all they can do is provide a FCC and then deny me boarding.

Very reasonable position.

[Daniel A]

Many, many doctors now belong to privately operated health care systems rather than individual private practices.  On of the main reasons why doctors affiliate with these systems is to share operating expenses with all the others participating in the system.  One of the most important to individual physicians is shared costs of malpractice insurance.  The costs are kept down by having system wide protocols that the individual doctors must follow.  What happens to this whole plan of having doctors provide fit to sail letters if the lawyers for these health systems come out with an internal regulation prohibiting it's physicians from issuing such documents?  ( I think this is a very likely scenario.) 

[mimip]

46 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

Hi, I'm Little Dave and I'm 5 years old.  My dad, Big Dave, tells me that cruising is great fun -- but only if you're old enough.  Some cruise lines don't even allow toddlers like me -- that's unfair!  And I don't get to drink what my dad calls the "hard stuff" -- that's discrimination!  I'm so angry, I would file a lawsuit -- if I only knew what that was.

😂🤣😅😆

[npcl]

55 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Here are some statistics:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm?s_cid=mm6915e3_w

 

Here are some excerpts:

 

The COVID-19–associated hospitalization rate among patients identified through COVID-NET for the 4-week period ending March 28, 2020, was 4.6 per 100,000 population (Figure 1). Hospitalization rates increased with age, with a rate of 0.3 in persons aged 0–4 years, 0.1 in those aged 5–17 years, 2.5 in those aged 18–49 years, 7.4 in those aged 50–64 years, and 13.8 in those aged ≥65 years. Rates were highest among persons aged ≥65 years, ranging from 12.2 in those aged 65–74 years to 17.2 in those aged ≥85 years. 

 

During March 1–30, underlying medical conditions and symptoms at admission were reported through COVID-NET for approximately 180 (12.1%) hospitalized adults (Table); 89.3% had one or more underlying conditions. The most commonly reported were hypertension (49.7%), obesity (48.3%), chronic lung disease (34.6%), diabetes mellitus (28.3%), and cardiovascular disease (27.8%). 

 

Clearly, based upon CDC data, there is reason to believe that hospitalization rates are directly dependent upon age and upon the comorbidities in question. 

To add to that the reason for some of the differences by ethnic group, in addition to income level, hourly workers, housing density  you get the data dealing with the increased percentage of Covid-19 risk factors such as various pre-existing conditions in various people of color.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558355/

Edited April 11, 2020 by npcl

[Daniel A]

I haven't read the entire CDC order.  Does anyone know if it even references fit to sail documents for PAX 70 and above?

[mimip]

7 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I haven't read the entire CDC order.  Does anyone know if it even references fit to sail documents for PAX 70 and above?

I found Celebrity’s form on their website.  Norwegian also has their form posted.

[Daniel A]

9 minutes ago, mimip said:

I found Celebrity’s form on their website.  Norwegian also has their form posted.

Right, I've seen them but does anyone know if the government is making the form a requirement?

[travelhound]

I am not over 70, but in my 50's, so I am not exactly young anymore.  To answer your question, I definitely hope to be able to cruise again.  I think the age restrictions will only be temporary, until the government is able to develop a vaccine. 

[mimip]

5 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Right, I've seen them but does anyone know if the government is making the form a requirement?

The government is requiring the cruise lines to come up with some safeguards.  The letter for those 70+ is one that some of the lines have instituted.  I can’t find out how long this requirement will last.  If it is permanent, many of us will not be cruising.  I have no issues but my husband has diabetes.  We have three cruises booked in 2020, and our March one was cancelled (thankful for that).

Edited April 12, 2020 by mimip
Spelling

[Thrak]

3 hours ago, WmFCoyote said:

This really has gone on long enough. All I am requesting is for Princess to make a statement on weather they will or will not require the FTS letter. It will allow me to make an educated decision on accepting a FCC if they will not be requiring the TFS letter or accepting nothing less than a full cash refund if they will require the FTS letter. I like and want to cruise but I do not wish to donate my funds to PCL if all they can do is provide a FCC and then deny me boarding.

 

The simple answer is to insist on a cash refund. That way you get your money back and, if you can still cruise at a later date, you can use the cash to book a new cruise. If you can't cruise due to new requirements (I still think including diabetes in the strictures is insane) then you will have your cash rather than a uselesss-to-you FCC.

[IDB37]

Covid aside, isn't how long we live the ultimate age discriminator ?

 

The average life expectancy for a female in the western world is around four years longer than for a male. That's why life insurance costs less for ladies. 

 

Complaining about age discrimination just ignores the reality that Cruiselines have to deal with.

[npcl]

2 hours ago, Daniel A said:

I haven't read the entire CDC order.  Does anyone know if it even references fit to sail documents for PAX 70 and above?

I do not recall seeing any about the age restrictions in the document coming from the CDC. Though there is nothing that prevents the CLIA from including it in their plan

[mimip]

7 hours ago, npcl said:

I do not recall seeing any about the age restrictions in the document coming from the CDC. Though there is nothing that prevents the CLIA from including it in their plan

See post #490...

[dog]

12 hours ago, WmFCoyote said:

This really has gone on long enough. All I am requesting is for Princess to make a statement on weather they will or will not require the FTS letter. It will allow me to make an educated decision on accepting a FCC if they will not be requiring the TFS letter or accepting nothing less than a full cash refund if they will require the FTS letter. I like and want to cruise but I do not wish to donate my funds to PCL if all they can do is provide a FCC and then deny me boarding.

I agree with you. If you have a choice take the money. 
We will just have to wait to see IF Princess requires the medical letter. 
 

[AF-1]

For those who are 70 and over; if Princess requires a medical letter for future sailing; this will give your the option to get cash back instead of FCC.  If you can not obtain a medical letter than you have no option but to accept cash back.  

[MissP22]

1 hour ago, AF-1 said:

For those who are 70 and over; if Princess requires a medical letter for future sailing; this will give your the option to get cash back instead of FCC.  If you can not obtain a medical letter than you have no option but to accept cash back.  

That's beginning to sound like a better option.....at least for the next year or two. 

[RocketMan275]

15 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Many, many doctors now belong to privately operated health care systems rather than individual private practices.  On of the main reasons why doctors affiliate with these systems is to share operating expenses with all the others participating in the system.  One of the most important to individual physicians is shared costs of malpractice insurance.  The costs are kept down by having system wide protocols that the individual doctors must follow.  What happens to this whole plan of having doctors provide fit to sail letters if the lawyers for these health systems come out with an internal regulation prohibiting it's physicians from issuing such documents?  ( I think this is a very likely scenario.) 

If that happens, the cruise lines will have to negotiate with the lawyers of those affiliates to develop a letter that protects the affiliates while also protecting the cruise lines and their passengers.  

 

It's understandable that posters are focused on how this affect themselves.  It's equally important to recognize that the cruise lines must find a way to limit their liabilities as well.

[jotjot]

How can they fill all the ships,  without us old geezer.

[molly361]

Is Princess still supposed to make some announcement tomorrow?