Let's Think About Suspending the Jones Act.

[npcl]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, it is the USPH working with the CDC that controls ships entering the US.  And for US flag cruise ships that function is taken over by the FDA.

I was talking about what gave the power to the CDC to issue their no sail order and to require the cruise lines to develop and present plans for infection control and management.  Not so much the normal day to day controls outside of the pandemic.

[npcl]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

That is an interesting mix of cosponsors ranging from Strom Thurmond on the right to the 2 Senators from California on the left.

The two most interesting were McCain AZ and Burns MT since neither state has a coast and would not directly benefit.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, npcl said:

The two most interesting were McCain AZ and Burns MT since neither state has a coast and would not directly benefit.

McCain has long been an opponent of any maritime cabotage law, from the PVSA to the Jones Act, to the cargo preference acts, which directly affect the farm interests he was beholden to, as it raises the price of farm exports.

[Hawaiidan]

18 hours ago, npcl said:

Largely because it was a unique situation with the federal government having been stuck with the results on a loan guarantee and NCL was the only cruise line that stepped up to take the ship off of the governments hands.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that even if your state government is corrupt the items that control PVSA and the NCL ship in Hawaii is under the domain of  the Feds, not the state.  Or do you think the Hawaii government has more influence than the other 49 states.

At the time  Inouey  (sp ) was the senator  he and Ted Stevens are or were renown pork barrel  masters..... and  huge sway in washington ........I doubt that another company even got the message...   It was common in Hawaii  for bids and such  to be offered so that only one  person got the message there was even a tender...............  

[npcl]

56 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

At the time  Inouey  (sp ) was the senator  he and Ted Stevens are or were renown pork barrel  masters..... and  huge sway in washington ........I doubt that another company even got the message...   It was common in Hawaii  for bids and such  to be offered so that only one  person got the message there was even a tender...............  

Hate to tell you but there were congressional hearings, federal register notices, etc.  

 

so nope not a back room deal.  All very public.  

 

I guess you need another windmill to joust at.

[chengkp75]

52 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

At the time  Inouey  (sp ) was the senator  he and Ted Stevens are or were renown pork barrel  masters..... and  huge sway in washington ........I doubt that another company even got the message...   It was common in Hawaii  for bids and such  to be offered so that only one  person got the message there was even a tender...............  

It was common knowledge throughout the maritime industry that American Hawaiian had gone bankrupt, and the shipyard was applying for the title XI money.  There was no big conspiracy.  NCL's parent, Genting, had the capital, wanted to invest heavily in Hawaii, and saw an opportunity that other cruise lines decided to pass on.  The US flag operations at NCL are still not very profitable, certainly not as profitable as the 12-14 day cruises from the West Coast on foreign flag ships.

[Pierlesscruisers]

21 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, I ask that everyone remember that it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the Cruise Vessel Services Act.  Looking at the PVSA from the narrow perspective of the cruise industry is wrong.  You must understand that the maritime law definition of a "passenger vessel" is any vessel that carries more than 12 people for hire, so the PVSA protects the ferries, commuter boats, water taxis, dinner cruises, casino boats, whale watching and sightseeing boats, and large charter fishing vessels.

 

And, one thing that most folks don't understand about the PVSA is not that it requires US labor laws and wages, it requires US safety laws.  The USCG inspects foreign flag cruise ships to enforce the international SOLAS regulations, but this inspection is voluntary, and sometimes budgetary restrictions or ship's itineraries preclude a cruise ship from being inspected at the USCG's goal of "once a year".  A US flag cruise ship must be inspected, by law, by the USCG 4 times a year.

 

There you go again, bringing facts into the discussion again.  Darn trouble-maker!  Actually, you have provided us with so much good info, you often make me wish that I'd spent my career in the Merchant Marine rather than flying for the Army. 😟 You Maine guys are sure an interesting bunch. Of course I've only met one that I can remember and he was running the Lulu Lobster Boat up in Bar Harbor. One of the most interesting excursions I ever went on.

 

Thanks for the info you provide.

 

Tom

[hillslife]

On 4/22/2020 at 8:38 AM, cruising deacon said:

Then let the cruise line hire an American crew, put our own citizens back to work, and charge the cruisers whatever the additional cost.  I would be in favor of that.

We took at the inaugural cruise on pride of America with an all American crew. Worst cruise ever. All the crew thought they were on vacation..hanging over the rail’s watching the sites, watching us coming to Port. Service was awful ..room stewards were terrible ..passengers were running down the halls trying to get toilet paper and towels and empty their own trash. Most Young American workers don’t have the same work ethic or the need that some of the foreign country workers do.    They are happy to work and make much more than their home country can provide.

 

from experience.. I would be totally against an all American crew 😳😢

[satxdiver]

Not related to topic:  NCL Holdings was formed in 2011 to own and operate NCL.  At that time there were other companies like Genting who had an interest in NCLH.  As of December 2018 all the other large interests were bought out.  NCLH owns NCL, Oceania, and Regent Seven Seas.

 

The Jones Act and PVSA have been discussed many times on CC and other places.  There have been many attempts to open up the legislation to allow foreign flagged cruise ships to cruise out of the US and back without visiting a foreign port but has been blocked in Congress if it even go that far.   Let the discussion continue!

 

I know a lady who did a cruise on the Pride of America around HI because she does not like sea days and did not want to sail from the west coast to HI.   Her report matched perfectly with what has been said in other posts.  The service was non-existent, the crew seemed unfriendly etc.  She vowed never again.

 

Thanks to chengkp75 for once again crushing the conspiracy group with facts.  You did it again.  

[cr8tiv1]

On 4/22/2020 at 12:46 AM, HUNKY said:

Seems very simple to me,

 

US flagged ships must follow US wage/labor/tax laws if visiting/embarking/disembarking at US ports.

 

Non US flagged ships do NOT have to follow US wage/labor/tax laws if visiting/embarking/disembarking at US ports.

 

Will travel on US flagged ships cost more?   Yes, but it will give consumers more choices.

 

There's much more to the PVSA than wages.  A majority of the crew need to be Americans.  They had to lower the percentage in Hawaii (NCL) because they couldn't get enough workers.  Cruise Fares went up, service went down.  

 

I was around when Matson made the run from the West Coast to Hawaii (yes....).  I would love to see that happen again.  I would love to see a modification to the PVSA.  But the unions in Hawaii and West Coast are too strong.  Not going to happen anytime soon.

Edited April 23, 2020 by cr8tiv1

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, cr8tiv1 said:

They had to lower the percentage in Hawaii (NCL) because they couldn't get enough workers

Uh, no.  The same percentage applies to the POA as any other US flag ship.  25% of unlicensed crew may be Resident Aliens (green card), but they did bring in supervisors as non-Resident Alien crew, but these count against the 25%.  They couldn't get enough workers in Hawaii, but they now hire all over the US.  Most US flag ships, container, tanker, car carrier, have at least some Green Card crew onboard at any time.

[chengkp75]

52 minutes ago, satxdiver said:

I know a lady who did a cruise on the Pride of America around HI because she does not like sea days and did not want to sail from the west coast to HI.   Her report matched perfectly with what has been said in other posts.  The service was non-existent, the crew seemed unfriendly etc.  She vowed never again.

Things were pretty grim when we first started in Hawaii.  Most of the crew had never spent more than a couple of nights away from home, and certainly not in a small room with strangers.  We went through tens of thousands of crew over the 4 years I was there.  I believe the record was 45 minutes from the time they set foot on the ship to the time they quit.  From reports and posts here on CC, I believe that, especially with the NRAC supervisors, the quality of service has improved, and I know the pay has improved somewhat.

[chengkp75]

25 minutes ago, cr8tiv1 said:

 

There's much more to the PVSA than wages.  A majority of the crew need to be Americans.  They had to lower the percentage in Hawaii (NCL) because they couldn't get enough workers.  Cruise Fares went up, service went down.  

 

I was around when Matson made the run from the West Coast to Hawaii (yes....).  I would love to see that happen again.  I would love to see a modification to the PVSA.  But the unions in Hawaii and West Coast are too strong.  Not going to happen anytime soon.

The Matson ships were US flag.  I have to laugh when folks talk about the US maritime unions being too strong.  Our numbers have been declining for years, the ship owners dictate most of the contract terms, and just like the driving force behind the Jones Act, it is the shipowners, not the unions, that are the major lobby for retention of the Jones Act and PVSA, though I totally agree with them.

[cr8tiv1]

44 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The Matson ships were US flag.  I have to laugh when folks talk about the US maritime unions being too strong.  Our numbers have been declining for years, the ship owners dictate most of the contract terms, and just like the driving force behind the Jones Act, it is the shipowners, not the unions, that are the major lobby for retention of the Jones Act and PVSA, though I totally agree with them.

 

Matson still has a very strong presence in Hawaii (although they no longer do passenger sailings).  Jones Act (shipping/cargo) is why the price of goods in Hawaii are so expensive.  It's not only the Maritime Unions, it's also the rental car agencies, airlines, hotels, barges, etc that lobby agains the Jones Act and PVSA.  

 

Milk = $6.00 a gallon.  We have no local milk cows.  All milk is shipped in.  Big Box Stores are our life line.  They made a commitment to keep prices as close to mainland prices as possible.  

 

PVSA and Jones Act needs to be revisited.  We have no "interstate" and no ferry like Alaska and Seattle although we are surrounded by an ocean.  Shipping between islands just went up another 25%.  But I digress.  I understand the premise behind not allowing foreign entities to travel between US cities.  Money talks.

[chengkp75]

49 minutes ago, cr8tiv1 said:

 

Matson still has a very strong presence in Hawaii (although they no longer do passenger sailings).  Jones Act (shipping/cargo) is why the price of goods in Hawaii are so expensive.  It's not only the Maritime Unions, it's also the rental car agencies, airlines, hotels, barges, etc that lobby agains the Jones Act and PVSA.  

 

Milk = $6.00 a gallon.  We have no local milk cows.  All milk is shipped in.  Big Box Stores are our life line.  They made a commitment to keep prices as close to mainland prices as possible.  

 

PVSA and Jones Act needs to be revisited.  We have no "interstate" and no ferry like Alaska and Seattle although we are surrounded by an ocean.  Shipping between islands just went up another 25%.  But I digress.  I understand the premise behind not allowing foreign entities to travel between US cities.  Money talks.

If the Jones Act is causing so much expense in Hawaii, what is stopping any store from importing the exact same goods from Mexico or Canada and shipping them to the islands on foreign flag ships?  I would think if this were the case, that they could make a fortune.

[By The Bay]

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If the Jones Act is causing so much expense in Hawaii, what is stopping any store from importing the exact same goods from Mexico or Canada and shipping them to the islands on foreign flag ships?  I would think if this were the case, that they could make a fortune.

When I visited Hawaii last year, the guide told us that goods from Asia would have to go first to USA then transferred onto US flagged ship to bring the goods to Hawaii. Is this not the case?

[npcl]

2 hours ago, cr8tiv1 said:

 

Matson still has a very strong presence in Hawaii (although they no longer do passenger sailings).  Jones Act (shipping/cargo) is why the price of goods in Hawaii are so expensive.  It's not only the Maritime Unions, it's also the rental car agencies, airlines, hotels, barges, etc that lobby agains the Jones Act and PVSA.  

 

Milk = $6.00 a gallon.  We have no local milk cows.  All milk is shipped in.  Big Box Stores are our life line.  They made a commitment to keep prices as close to mainland prices as possible.  

 

PVSA and Jones Act needs to be revisited.  We have no "interstate" and no ferry like Alaska and Seattle although we are surrounded by an ocean.  Shipping between islands just went up another 25%.  But I digress.  I understand the premise behind not allowing foreign entities to travel between US cities.  Money talks.

Gee I thought it was because the state set milk price pretty forced forced the dairies out of business.  Now you import milk, but because the time for shipping is so long you cannot just ship milk from the west coast and pay milk cost plus transportation charges (shelf life is only 7-10 days) so the milk is brought in and is then reprocessed/re-pasteurized, packaged and sold by the single company that doe it.  

 

25 years ago there were 17 dairies on Oahu, but the state milk pricing forced them put them out of business one by one.  There is still one dairy on the big island.

 

If you want to see how milk is handled impacts price compare the price of milk in Hawaii to the price in CA.  Then compare the price of Cheese in each location.

 

I also seem to recall an effort for a company to start up an inter-island ferry which would have reduced inter island costs, but that seems have gotten nixed by environmental groups. Every thing was arranged, the ferry was actually in the islands then it was killed.

Edited April 24, 2020 by npcl

[Charles4515]

 

Matson still has a very strong presence in Hawaii (although they no longer do passenger sailings).  Jones Act (shipping/cargo) is why the price of goods in Hawaii are so expensive.  It's not only the Maritime Unions, it's also the rental car agencies, airlines, hotels, barges, etc that lobby agains the Jones Act and PVSA.  

 

Milk = $6.00 a gallon.  We have no local milk cows.  All milk is shipped in.  Big Box Stores are our life line.  They made a commitment to keep prices as close to mainland prices as possible.  

 

PVSA and Jones Act needs to be revisited.  We have no "interstate" and no ferry like Alaska and Seattle although we are surrounded by an ocean.  Shipping between islands just went up another 25%.  But I digress.  I understand the premise behind not allowing foreign entities to travel between US cities.  Money talks.

 

He is going to defend the PVSA and Jones Act no matter what because he is a part of the special interests that benefits from those protectionist laws. He will always come up with an argument and rational. The PVSA and Jones Act need to be changed but not to help the cruise industry. They need to be changed to help Americans.

 

 

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[ldubs]

19 hours ago, caribill said:

 

NCL had three ships that met (after Congressional approval) the provisions and sailed around Hawaii without needing a foreign port stop.

a) They had a hard time finding Americans willing to work the long hours, even at American level wages.

b) Higher pricing meant people would not book the cruise. When pricing was lowered to get more passengers onto the ship, NCL could not make money.

 

The result is that they are down to just one cruise ship in Hawaii now.  Looking at some upcoming cruises, ten day cruises start at $340/night per person for an inside cabin. Seven day cruises go for $271/night per person for an inside cabin. Plus taxes/fees.

 

I do not know how many takers there are at these prices.

 

(Note that the above pricing is current pricing,. not brochure pricing)

 

Thanks for the info.  I would have been surprised if prices were not higher.  They would have to be driven by the higher relative salaries for livable American wages.  

[ldubs]

10 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

They need to be changed to help Americans.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

That would be a good objective, but what changes do you suggest that would do that?  

[Charles4515]

Check out the link for good but very long article about the Jones Act.

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/jones-act-burden-america-can-no-longer-bear

However repealing the PSVA and Jones act are not going to fix the cruise industry’s current problems.


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[Iamcruzin]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:24 PM, Hawaiidan said:

The Jones act is kept  in place  by pressure from the Hawaiian politicians to protect 3shipping lines  MATSON  and HORIZON and Young brothers local....  Who are BIG contributors  to various politicians pockets.....  How do you think NCL  got a waiver to the Passenger Service act  to sail in Hawaii.....?????   Crooked Hawaiian politics..

The NCL Pride of America is the only US flagged cruise ship which is why the Passenger Service Act doesn't apply to them.

[caribill]

14 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

 

The environment onboard ships leads to transmission.

 

 

And so does a choir practice and so does a funeral.

[Charles4515]

 
And so does a choir practice and so does a funeral.

That’s nice......[emoji848]


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[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, By The Bay said:

When I visited Hawaii last year, the guide told us that goods from Asia would have to go first to USA then transferred onto US flagged ship to bring the goods to Hawaii. Is this not the case?

No.  There is no requirement that all goods going to Hawaii must go to the mainland first, any more than I believe there is a requirement that everything going to Tasmania has to come from the Australian mainland.  It is a question of whether or not a shipper wants to put Hawaii on their route between Asia and the mainland US.