The Cruise and Travel Industry is in a very bad place!

[LocoLoco1]

I would say until a vaccine this Winter in Minnesota it will be hunkering down with Domino’s Pizza, beer and Netflix. VFW’s closed. Cafes & Motels closed. Schools 2/days a week. Big Box stores 100% Mask Compliance. A definite spike in rural area cases of common Influenza and Covid now. Retired folks who Winter South are long gone. Northwoods is very quiet. 

[FredT]

2 hours ago, LocoLoco1 said:

I would say until a vaccine this Winter in Minnesota it will be hunkering down with Domino’s Pizza, beer and Netflix. VFW’s closed. Cafes & Motels closed. Schools 2/days a week. Big Box stores 100% Mask Compliance. A definite spike in rural area cases of common Influenza and Covid now. Retired folks who Winter South are long gone. Northwoods is very quiet. 

Interesting....  (And I am not doubting you)  But here in SW Connecticut (Just outside the "hotspot" of NYC,) thing are slowly drifting back to normal...   Cafe's back to 75%, motels all open, "most" schools open 5 days a week (With home schooling options) ALL retail businesses open as normal.   Even the gyms, pools, and theaters are open...

 

Maybe because we went through the "hard times" early and are just "Covid'ed" out? I know the media is shreiking "Second wave... SECOND WAVE!!!!!" but most people are just shrugging their shoulders, putting on their masks, washing their hands and carrying on as usual. 

[LocoLoco1]

Remote Northwoods never had Covid’s First Wave. Nearly Zero until June. Now we’re getting hammered. First case down in the village was last week. Winter influenza plus Covid?? Bad combination.  I don’t have either...yet. Ports-o-Call will NEED a vaccine to get cruising going methinks. 

[Mike981]

Minnesota is nearly back to our worst numbers this past spring. And now we are coming up on a time of the year when it is going to be very hard for people to stay safe, the holiday season. People are longing for family and friends as it is and it is only going to get worse. We'll see the results come January and February.

[Joebucks]

What a complete thread of a doom and gloom. Everything is ending. It's also incredible that I can go to work everyday with the public, shop in a busy Wal-Mart, fly in a full plane, etc and these are fine. Yet a cruise with similar precautions (or maybe even more) is a death trap.

 

I remember as soon as COVID hit, there were all these talks about people out of work and that they can't afford life. Then I personally saw what some were getting in unemployment, especially with the $600 federal payment. They were making more by not working. Then there was the $1200 stimulus, and will likely be another. Are some people hurting from this? Yes. However, a good portion of those were people who were hurting before. How many people do you really know who are unable to get any work because of COVID? Many employers are paying more than ever, which was further proven by the increase in the household income in 2019.

 

We're also all environmentalists here. Because we are so smart about what a ship of 5,000 people brings to the environment. We even went as far as breaking it up into smaller ships is now better. Never mind what those 5,000 people would do otherwise. Probably planting trees and walking to their destination.

Some of you need to turn the politics off.
 

[chipmaster]

3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

What a complete thread of a doom and gloom. Everything is ending. It's also incredible that I can go to work everyday with the public, shop in a busy Wal-Mart, fly in a full plane, etc and these are fine. Yet a cruise with similar precautions (or maybe even more) is a death trap.

 

 

It is only going poorly where the leadership can use science and learning to do the right thing.

 

As to Wall-Mart, Costco etc... those are essential services, flying local is essential infratructure.

 

Sports gathering, conventions and large gatherings and cruising not so much.  

 

I share the frustration of the total failure of national and local leadership over the last 9 months so nobody can do anything safely..  If only we had made right choices, learned, adjusted from our earlier mistake as we learned things would be so much better.

 

 

[ldubs]

15 hours ago, Mike981 said:

Minnesota is nearly back to our worst numbers this past spring. And now we are coming up on a time of the year when it is going to be very hard for people to stay safe, the holiday season. People are longing for family and friends as it is and it is only going to get worse. We'll see the results come January and February.

 

Yeah, the holiday season is going to be tough this year.   I am lucky to part of a large close-knit family.  During normal times our large family gatherings average more than once/month.  A small gathering might be 15 people.  For bigger holidays or celebrations it would be 30+.   We have not been together since early March (a large group on SE Asia cruise).  Thanksgiving has been cancelled.  I suspect our normal Christmas and New Year's eve gatherings will also be cancelled.  We truly are longing for our family and friends. 

[ColeThornton]

13 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

I share the frustration of the total failure of national and local leadership over the last 9 months so nobody can do anything safely..  If only we had made right choices, learned, adjusted from our earlier mistake as we learned things would be so much better.

 

 

Well, you know what they say about hindsight.   It's not like many had practice with this previously.  Live and learn.

[chipmaster]

4 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

 

Well, you know what they say about hindsight.   It's not like many had practice with this previously.  Live and learn.

The mark of intelligence is to be able to self realize mistakes and admit and correct.   We all know how it has gone and if any of the leadership admit it could be done better, if you can't admit it can be done better, will you even try?

 

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

Well, you know what they say about hindsight.   It's not like many had practice with this previously.  Live and learn.

 

The previous pandemic wasn't enough of a lesson 😂

 

Lessons from the 1918 pandemic: A U.S. city's past may hold clues

 

[navybankerteacher]

9 hours ago, Joebucks said:

...

 

Some of you need to turn the politics off.
 

And some need to take COVID seriously.  

 

After getting through the first round in March through May people with short attention spans are letting contagion take off again.

[rkacruiser]

10 hours ago, Joebucks said:

What a complete thread of a doom and gloom. Everything is ending. It's also incredible that I can go to work everyday with the public, shop in a busy Wal-Mart, fly in a full plane, etc and these are fine. Yet a cruise with similar precautions (or maybe even more) is a death trap.

 

Dear fellow Ohioan,

 

What is it about this pandemic you don't understand?

 

You have been able to do all that you say.  God has blessed you.  You remain healthy.  I know some who have not been so blessed.  They did what our Governor has said since mid-Winter that needs to be done to curtail the virus.  Yet, they contacted the virus.  As I write this, one is in the hospital with Covid and pneumonia.  She is not a senior citizen.  

 

10 hours ago, Joebucks said:

Some of you need to turn the politics off.

 

Why did this issue become politicized at all?

[LocoLoco1]

‘Cruising is in a bad place.’ For a reason. That Diamond Princess debacle and the Trans-Atlantic Costa cruise on ‘60 Minutes’ TV program pretty much laid out why. No politics there, just Micro-biology. 

[Joebucks]

11 hours ago, chipmaster said:

I share the frustration of the total failure of national and local leadership over the last 9 months so nobody can do anything safely..  If only we had made right choices, learned, adjusted from our earlier mistake as we learned things would be so much better.

 

I keep hearing this and am still waiting for what that magic fix is that we should have done. At first it was we needed testing and PPE. Now we have more of both of those than we know what to do with. We shut down travel. Shut down the economy. We are ingrained to play the blame game our whole lives.

 

Now, I keep hearing science and masks. Where are masks not mandated? If masks haven't "stopped" it yet, how much more is really the solve here? As a disclaimer (because you have to these days) I did not say to stop wearing masks if you couldn't tell.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Joebucks

[navybankerteacher]

10 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

...

 

Now, I keep hearing science and masks. Where are masks not mandated? If masks haven't "stopped" it yet, how much more is really the solve here? As a disclaimer (because you have to these days) I did not say to stop wearing masks if you couldn't tell.

Masks are “not mandated” in lots of places.  Have you failed to observe recent political rallies?  In fact in Marion County in north-central Florida the  sheriff has actually mandated that his deputies NOT wear masks.  

 

Perhaps the reason masks haven’t “stopped” it is because so many people refuse to wear them. Stupidity and selfishness win again.

Edited October 28, 2020 by navybankerteacher

[Joebucks]

2 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Have you failed to observe recent political rallies?

 

I knew this was going to come up. Perhaps you should look at the numbers of which states have the worst death ratios and how close they are to the rallies the news tells you is spreading COVID. 

[Hlitner]

16 hours ago, chipmaster said:

The mark of intelligence is to be able to self realize mistakes and admit and correct.   We all know how it has gone and if any of the leadership admit it could be done better, if you can't admit it can be done better, will you even try?

 

Whenever anything bad happens we all have this tendency to find a scapegoat.  The government often gets the blame.  In the case of COVID it is just against the trend to accept that any virus goes wherever it pleases and there is little any government can do unless you are on an island that can be isolated from earth (like New Zealand).  If you look around the world none of the other approaches (lock downs, no lock downs, more testing, etc) has done much good.  The various efforts only seem to delay or shift the inevitable coming of COVID.   The blame game makes us all feel a little better (it is always somebody else's fault) but does little to forestall the fact that the virus wins.  

 

I have suggested from last March that we must learn how to live with COVID just like we have learned to live with other bugs.  With COVID not only do we have to deal with the virus but now must deal with the fallout from letting the world economy go to hell.  So here we are more then 10 months into this pandemic with many ruined economies and we still have the virus!  Whether any of what society has done really saved any lives is a question for historians.  But much of what we do now is so silly as to defy logic...and yet most do it without question.  Take masks.  Wearing a N95 or KN95 mask does help prevent the spread of any virus.  Wearing these silly single layer fabric masks are near worthless (viruses can go through that stuff without any problem).  Social distancing is fine, but 6 feet of separation is not nearly enough (this has been proven by real experiments and tests) but even the authorities cannot figure out how to run the world if we had to keep 15 feet from all souls.  

 

How can we possibly have a safe cruise environment?  Social distancing (to the extent necessary) is impossible on a large cruise ship.  The only certain way would be to somehow be 100% sure that everyone was virus free when they boarded and then not allow anyone off the ship anywhere.   Everything else is high risk and we can see the result in Europe where just about every cruise ship that is operating has had instances of COVID.  

 

So now, most of us must wait patiently for a safe/effective vaccine.  The anti-vaxers also wait for a safe/effective vaccine and pray that everyone else gets it and they reap the benefit.  If there is never a safe/effective vaccine the world will ultimately have no choice but to adjust to a COVID world and most of us will get on with our lives.  Actually, many of us have already gotten on with our lives while others continue to "hide in their basements" until there is a vaccine or they finally get tired of their basements.   DW and I do live our life but we also follow the crowd and wear our masks (which are either N95 or KN95), social distance, and also use a lot of common sense.  Going out to restaurants where we live is quite safe (plenty of social distancing) and we can enjoy those moments while feeling bad for places like NYC where the government attitude is to bankrupt 10s of thousands of restaurants, their owners, and their employees.   Some travel is fine as long as folks use lots of common sense, follow the rules, avoid the demonstrators (who never follow any rules), etc.  But I do think that cruises are a big no-no until (and if) there is a decent vaccine.

 

Speaking of masks (keep in mind that we do wear them per requirements) there apparently is a very interesting study (done in Denmark) that calls into question all the mask wearing standards.  But this particular study has been rejected by all the major medical publications (JAMA, Lancet, etc) without comment.  This seems to be another case where a few have decided that "they know best" and "censorship is good." and the public needs to be kept in the dark.  Assuming this study shows that most mask wearing is worthless the publication of the study would cause a worldwide fiasco.  So when we finally get a real scientific study that information is withheld (for now) from the world.  Go figure.https://www.rt.com/news/504219-danish-mask-study-rejected-coronavirus/ .  To be very blunt, what scares me a lot more then COVID is this international trend towards censorship and the rejection of debate/discussion and anyone with whom we disagree  (i.e. cancel culture).  

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

 

I knew this was going to come up. Perhaps you should look at the numbers of which states have the worst death ratios and how close they are to the rallies the news tells you is spreading COVID. 

It takes a while for the results to come in after a “spreader event” .  People who attend eithe get infected or they don’t, then over a couple of weeks they develop the viruses in quantity to spread, then the people they expose do the same.  A good example of the time lag involved after the big motor cycle in Sturgis, SD before South Dakota - an area  largely spared previously - is now a hot spot.

 

I hope that you do not seriously believe that having a large number of people in close proximity, without masks or taking other precautions, is virtually certain to lead to wider spread.

[sverigecruiser]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Everything else is high risk and we can see the result in Europe where just about every cruise ship that is operating has had instances of COVID.  

 

 

But still no disaster. Maybe some instances of Covid on cruiseships isn't a big problem? I don't say that there is no problem but so far it doesn't look that bad, I think. 

 

As I have said before a cruise doesn't scare me at all because I think that the risk of being infected is bigger at work than on a cruiseship. (But the consequences if getting infected may be bigger on a cruiseship.)   

Edited October 28, 2020 by sverigecruiser

[LocoLoco1]

My spouse is a career Registered Nurse. Involved in literally THOUSANDS of surgeries. I’ve been around Surgical tables a tad myself. Ponder this: Why do Operating Rooms mandate Masks, gloves and gowns?? NOT because the patient is the threat, but rather because the Surgical Team’s possible and unknown germs/viruses are the threat to the patient. (So...Please ask your Doctor to wash his hands and ‘Gown Up’ before you get cut on, OK??)  We Medical oriented cruisers once aboard often have a ‘Death Watch’ betting $Pool$. Should be interesting Post-Covid. 

[Hlitner]

43 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

But still no disaster. Maybe some instances of Covid on cruiseships isn't a big problem? I don't say that there is no problem but so far it doesn't look that bad, I think. 

 

As I have said before a cruise doesn't scare me at all because I think that the risk of being infected is bigger at work than on a cruiseship. (But the consequences if getting infected may be bigger on a cruiseship.)   

I guess disaster is in the eye of the beholder.  The recent issues with COVID on ships in Europe has been somewhat covered up by both the cruise lines and the media.  But cruises have been cut-short, ports have prohibited disembarkation, and passengers have simply gone their own way after possible exposure on ships.  In the case of one German river boat everyone has been quarantined.  With the recent resurgence of COVID in Europe we may well see cruises stopped.

 

But the CDC is somewhat different because they have shown a reluctance to let exposed cruisers simply walk off a ship and return home via public transit.  None of the two proposed plans (NCL/RCI and CLIA) address what to do with disembarkation if passengers are exposed.  The basic idea is similar to Europe in that you deal with the sick folks and let others simply go their way (to possibly expose hundreds of others).   I suspect this is one reason why the CDC has been reluctant to approve the restart of cruising although possibly we will see politics rule the roost and the CDC ignore their own better judgement.  I guess we will know within a few days how this will be treated here in the USA.

 

But the truth of the matter is very ugly for the cruise industry.  Left to their own judgement there is no way the CDC will green light cruises until their is a safe/effective vaccine.  That is because there does not seem to be any plan that can satisfy their concerns about what happens when anyone aboard gets the virus.  In some ways this reminds me of the early days of the HIV/Aids epidemic when we(I was in the government at the time) had to deal with the gay bathhouses.   Many in the gay community urged the government entities to allow the bath houses to remain open under strict protocols.  But most of the involved agencies quickly realized that (bases on what we knew about the virus at the time) that no protocol was going to be completely effective so nearly all the bath houses were closed for public health reasons.   In public health there is always this internal battle about balancing health concerns against public rights and the economy.  But we have never had a situation as bad as COVID when the stakes are so darn high for the entire population (at least that is the perception although a contrarian point of view is that the COVID risk is quite small for a majority of the population).

 

It still comes down to "what a mess" that still begs for a fair solution.  So, for now, we will continue to blame the various government authorities around the world for their "lack of leadership" in a crises that currently has no good solutions.  It kind of reminds me of an aviation issue of how much "leadership" can a pilot show if the wings fall off a plane.

 

Hank

 

 

[mnocket]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Whenever anything bad happens we all have this tendency to find a scapegoat.  The government often gets the blame.  In the case of COVID it is just against the trend to accept that any virus goes wherever it pleases and there is little any government can do unless you are on an island that can be isolated from earth (like New Zealand).  If you look around the world none of the other approaches (lock downs, no lock downs, more testing, etc) has done much good.  The various efforts only seem to delay or shift the inevitable coming of COVID.   The blame game makes us all feel a little better (it is always somebody else's fault) but does little to forestall the fact that the virus wins.  

 

I have suggested from last March that we must learn how to live with COVID just like we have learned to live with other bugs.  With COVID not only do we have to deal with the virus but now must deal with the fallout from letting the world economy go to hell.  So here we are more then 10 months into this pandemic with many ruined economies and we still have the virus!  Whether any of what society has done really saved any lives is a question for historians.  But much of what we do now is so silly as to defy logic...and yet most do it without question.  Take masks.  Wearing a N95 or KN95 mask does help prevent the spread of any virus.  Wearing these silly single layer fabric masks are near worthless (viruses can go through that stuff without any problem).  Social distancing is fine, but 6 feet of separation is not nearly enough (this has been proven by real experiments and tests) but even the authorities cannot figure out how to run the world if we had to keep 15 feet from all souls.  

 

How can we possibly have a safe cruise environment?  Social distancing (to the extent necessary) is impossible on a large cruise ship.  The only certain way would be to somehow be 100% sure that everyone was virus free when they boarded and then not allow anyone off the ship anywhere.   Everything else is high risk and we can see the result in Europe where just about every cruise ship that is operating has had instances of COVID.  

 

So now, most of us must wait patiently for a safe/effective vaccine.  The anti-vaxers also wait for a safe/effective vaccine and pray that everyone else gets it and they reap the benefit.  If there is never a safe/effective vaccine the world will ultimately have no choice but to adjust to a COVID world and most of us will get on with our lives.  Actually, many of us have already gotten on with our lives while others continue to "hide in their basements" until there is a vaccine or they finally get tired of their basements.   DW and I do live our life but we also follow the crowd and wear our masks (which are either N95 or KN95), social distance, and also use a lot of common sense.  Going out to restaurants where we live is quite safe (plenty of social distancing) and we can enjoy those moments while feeling bad for places like NYC where the government attitude is to bankrupt 10s of thousands of restaurants, their owners, and their employees.   Some travel is fine as long as folks use lots of common sense, follow the rules, avoid the demonstrators (who never follow any rules), etc.  But I do think that cruises are a big no-no until (and if) there is a decent vaccine.

 

Speaking of masks (keep in mind that we do wear them per requirements) there apparently is a very interesting study (done in Denmark) that calls into question all the mask wearing standards.  But this particular study has been rejected by all the major medical publications (JAMA, Lancet, etc) without comment.  This seems to be another case where a few have decided that "they know best" and "censorship is good." and the public needs to be kept in the dark.  Assuming this study shows that most mask wearing is worthless the publication of the study would cause a worldwide fiasco.  So when we finally get a real scientific study that information is withheld (for now) from the world.  Go figure.https://www.rt.com/news/504219-danish-mask-study-rejected-coronavirus/ .  To be very blunt, what scares me a lot more then COVID is this international trend towards censorship and the rejection of debate/discussion and anyone with whom we disagree  (i.e. cancel culture).  

 

Hank

 

Hank,  This is perhaps your best post ever imho.

 

With respect to mask effectiveness.....  healthdata.org (the source Dr Brix often quotes), mask compliance in the US is about 70%.  Now you have to ask your self -  how many of those masks are actually effective?  If you throw out single layer cotton, gaiters, bandannas, face shields and all those improperly fitting masks (which make up the majority in my experience) including those worn as chin diapers, you are left with a very small percentage (make your own estimate) of masks which are actually effective. 

 

Like you, I comply with mask requirements.  I also think that if you aren't wearing a N95/KN95 mask, you probably think your mask is providing more protection than it actually is.  It's been a mystery to me why the government hasn't mobilized to produce and provide N95/KN95 masks to everyone.  I mean if you're going to have a mask policy, why not base it on effective masks?  Perhaps it just comes down to it being easier for the government to simply say "wear a mask" and leave the rest to the public.  It makes it look like the government is doing something, when if fact they are actually doing very little.  Seniors and those with comorbidities should have been next in line behind first responders to receive N95/KN95 masks and a mandate to wear them in public.  

 

Unfortunately, instead of being a highly effective preventative measure, ineffective masks have become most effective for virtue signaling and political infighting. It could have been different.

[sverigecruiser]

21 minutes ago, mnocket said:

I mean if you're going to have a mask policy, why not base it on effective masks?  Perhaps it just comes down to it being easier for the government to simply say "wear a mask" and leave the rest to the public.  It makes it look like the government is doing something, when if fact they are actually doing very little. 

 

One of the reasons why masks aren't recommended here. Non effective masks and incorrectly worn masks is worse than no masks if that means that people will keep a greater distance.   

[Hlitner]

26 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

One of the reasons why masks aren't recommended here. Non effective masks and incorrectly worn masks is worse than no masks if that means that people will keep a greater distance.   

We have actually seen some discussion (here in the USA) about the way Sweden has handled COVID.  Your country has both fans and detractors but I think it will take some time to truly analyze whether the policy in Sweden is good.   I do recall one of your ministers mentioned (this might have been last April or May) that the problem with "shut downs" is that while its relatively easy to shut down it can be difficult to reopen.  And that is what has happened in some places here in the USA where our authorities have lied and misled the public.  Consider New York City (and State) where the Governor made a very big deal about shutting down to "flatten the curve."  He made a good case that to make sure that hospital admissions were controlled (by shut down).  But once things were brought under control that same governor continued many of the restrictions....now saying we need to do this to "prevent" further problems.  What many folks refuse to consider is that once you go down this road (politicians can take away freedoms as a prevention measure) your freedoms are at the whim of any politician since they can (at any time) do as they please and cite "public health" or "public safety."  Over the decades many tyrannies have been justified by telling the public "it is in their own best interests,"  "it is necessary for public safety," etc.  Eventually those folks lose all their freedom and rights just like we see in places like Venezuela.

 

Getting back to the mask thing it is almost amusing to see how folks wear useless thin masks and often wear them underneath their nose :).  What is even more ridiculous is this new trend (here in the USA) for folks to wear clear plastic face shields without a mask.  Those shields do absolutely nothing to stop a virus although they do keep rain drops off your face :).

 

Hank

[sverigecruiser]

37 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We have actually seen some discussion (here in the USA) about the way Sweden has handled COVID.  Your country has both fans and detractors but I think it will take some time to truly analyze whether the policy in Sweden is good.   

 

I know that there has been discussions in the USA and during the spring there were also lots of discussions here on cruise critic about the insane Swedes! 

 

I said then that I was hoping that the US shouldn't pass Sweden because it wasn't about who was right and who was wrong, it was a matter of life or death. What has happened since the summer?  August 10 Sweden had 566 deaths per million and USA had 498 deaths per million. After todays latest update (worldometers.info) Sweden have 585 and USA have 700.

 

I agree with you that it's too early to analyze. Time will tell.