Who feels safer on a Ship than on a Plane ??

[Sunshine3601]

4 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

The problem with the cruise is it's the same several thousand people for many days in a row.  If you walk past someone in the airport with Covid, you run a fairly low risk of getting it.  But if you spend five or seven days continuously interacting with a group of people that are all also continuously interacting with the same self-contained group, you have the perfect recipe for unmitigated spread.

 

Look, I know the cruise fans here don't like it.  But make no mistake.  Cruising before this is completely mitigated is going to be very, very difficult to do succesfully.

I disagree,  there are several. Cruiselines in europe as well as rcl in singapore that have been sailing successful.  Sure, there may be 1 or 2 cases that pop up, but no outbreaks.  MSC restarted their 7 night sailings out of italy on or about jan 25th after a 4 to 6 week break during holidays and high outbreaks in europe but they continue to show the world it can be done.

[Roger88]

10 minutes ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I disagree,  there are several. Cruiselines in europe as well as rcl in singapore that have been sailing successful.  Sure, there may be 1 or 2 cases that pop up, but no outbreaks.  MSC restarted their 7 night sailings out of italy on or about jan 25th after a 4 to 6 week break during holidays and high outbreaks in europe but they continue to show the world it can be done.

I never hear of outbreaks there. Such cases always happend even in the pre-pandemic period. I really hope that there will be less or  even no cases from now on 

[time4u2go]

Not me.

[broberts]

1 hour ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I disagree,  there are several. Cruiselines in europe as well as rcl in singapore that have been sailing successful.  Sure, there may be 1 or 2 cases that pop up, but no outbreaks.  MSC restarted their 7 night sailings out of italy on or about jan 25th after a 4 to 6 week break during holidays and high outbreaks in europe but they continue to show the world it can be done.

 

It is not possible to book an MSC med cruise sailing before May 1, 2021. As far as I know Europe shut down cruising late last year because of serious outbreaks throughout most of the union. So one.

 

The RCL cruise to nowhere out of Singapore for seems to be working. But it is sailing out of a bubble with extremely low infection rates and there is a fairly rigorous test regime that commences several days before sailing. I seriously doubt the same conditions could be found in the US or Europe.

[Ourusualbeach]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

It is not possible to book an MSC med cruise sailing before May 1, 2021.

 

[broberts]

11 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

 

 

Well I didn't get the same thing. No idea why. 

[SeaHunt]

5 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I disagree,  there are several. Cruiselines in europe as well as rcl in singapore that have been sailing successful.  Sure, there may be 1 or 2 cases that pop up, but no outbreaks.  MSC restarted their 7 night sailings out of italy on or about jan 25th after a 4 to 6 week break during holidays and high outbreaks in europe but they continue to show the world it can be done.

 

Here are the latest passenger cruise cases (AFAIK), and how they handled it 😉

 

"Four people aboard the cruise ship Mein Schiff 2 which is sailing week-long itineraries to the Canary Islands tested positive for Covid-19, reports the German news magazine Stern. The guests tested positive for Covid-19 at the end of the last week’s voyage, said a spokesperson for Tui Cruises on Tuesday "The four people were immediately isolated on board and later taken to quarantine accommodation on land in Gran Canaria."

 

After completing the contact tracing nine guests and eleven crew members were identified as direct contacts and tested for the virus. The results of all direct contacts came back negative. All guests and crew on board were also tested for Covid-19 and there was no additional positive case detected. As a precautionary measure and in line with the company’s health protocols the direct contacts were also isolated on board and then accommodated accordingly on land in a quarantine facility in Gran Canaria. 

 

About 1,000 guests tested negative for the coronavirus and were able to travel back home to Germany on Friday as scheduled. All 800 shipboard employees also tested negative for Covid-19.

 

After guests disembarked Mein Schiff 2, the vessel was thoroughly sanitized, and in consultation with the authorities was allowed to continue with the next scheduled voyage. Tui said that this proves that the safety and health protocols work because the virus didn't spread further on board. 

 

Mein Schiff 2 is one of the few cruise ships currently sailing with guests. The ship started with regular cruises on November 6, 2020 from the homeport Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, offering guests 7- and 14-night Blue Voyages around the Canary Islands with calls at Arrecife, Tenerife, La Gomera, Puerto del Rosario, Tenerife, Santa Cruz De La Palma. The passenger capacity is limited to a maximum of 60%, and only the balcony staterooms and suites are occupied.

 

http://crew-center.com/four-test-positive-covid-19-mein-schiff-2

[Incognito1]

United Airlines commercial says you're perfectly safe in a plane.  Statistics bear this out.  Flight attendants have fewer cases of COVID than the general public.  But, you're definitely in close and continual contact for more than 15 minutes.  It's about the air exchange, which I read was every four minutes through an advanced filter.  We're not afraid to fly; damn the American Airlines mask Nazis, though.  We won't be flying them again.

 

Not afraid of cruising, either.  We spend most of our time outside, anyway.  I guess the answer to the question is no -- we feel safe either way, at least as "safe" as anyone can be who is living life.

 

 

[Incognito1]

On 2/8/2021 at 10:09 AM, twangster said:

Airplanes are spreading the virus like many venues on land are.  Airplane time is measured in hours so while we don't know the exact flight number where the virus was transported, we do know planes are spreading the virus.  The inability to document exactly what plane was involved with spreading the virus does not make planes safe.  

Source please.  Statistics do not bear this out.

[Incognito1]

11 hours ago, broberts said:

 

I believe there was a recent report out of the UK that presented data suggesting as little 15 seconds is required with the UK variant.

 

In general infections have a highly variable transmission time. One can get infected within a few seconds or it may take many minutes. It all depends on the amount and density of virus being expelled, distance travelled, etc.

How convenient.  The CDC reports that it's 15 minutes of close and continual contact.  People decide that they'll simply distance themselves or limit their time interaction, so the "UK variant" drops to 15 seconds (source, please?)  That way, everyone "needs" to get a vaccine.  

 

It's difficult for me to buy into that.  Convenient way to try to convince (mandate?) those who take personal responsibility to distance themselves and negate the need for a vax.

[ReneeFLL]

4 hours ago, Incognito1 said:

United Airlines commercial says you're perfectly safe in a plane.  Statistics bear this out.  Flight attendants have fewer cases of COVID than the general public.  But, you're definitely in close and continual contact for more than 15 minutes.  It's about the air exchange, which I read was every four minutes through an advanced filter.  We're not afraid to fly; damn the American Airlines mask Nazis, though.  We won't be flying them again.

 

Not afraid of cruising, either.  We spend most of our time outside, anyway.  I guess the answer to the question is no -- we feel safe either way, at least as "safe" as anyone can be who is living life.

 

 

I’m positive American Airlines won’t miss you, but you should learn the rules set forth by the cdc regarding air travel before calling them Nazis. Looks like you won’t be flying with any US carrier if you don’t want to wear a mask. 🤣

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/masks/mask-travel-guidance.html

 

[Sunshine3601]

16 hours ago, broberts said:

 

It is not possible to book an MSC med cruise sailing before May 1, 2021. As far as I know Europe shut down cruising late last year because of serious outbreaks throughout most of the union. So one.

 

The RCL cruise to nowhere out of Singapore for seems to be working. But it is sailing out of a bubble with extremely low infection rates and there is a fairly rigorous test regime that commences several days before sailing. I seriously doubt the same conditions could be found in the US or Europe.

MSC grandiosa had a temporary pause for dec and jan but did restart their sailings on jan 25th or 26th.   You can only book if you are from a schegen area.

[leisuretraveler223]

19 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I disagree,  there are several. Cruiselines in europe as well as rcl in singapore that have been sailing successful.  Sure, there may be 1 or 2 cases that pop up, but no outbreaks.  MSC restarted their 7 night sailings out of italy on or about jan 25th after a 4 to 6 week break during holidays and high outbreaks in europe but they continue to show the world it can be done.

 

You can disagree all you want. But you won't have a single epidemiologist or infectious disease specialist on your side.  Pointing out the relative success of a handful of cruises in carefully cultivated markets is in no way representative of the problems that would be inherent in a filled ship out of Florida.

 

The cruise model is PERFECT for magnifying the spread.  I think it's laughable that cruise lovers are in denial about this.  Still in doubt, riddle me this: often did you every hear about a noro outbreak tied to a plane?

[Biker19]

27 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

Still in doubt, riddle me this: often did you every hear about a noro outbreak tied to a plane?

Planes usually don't have a self service food venue.

[boscobeans]

1 minute ago, Biker19 said:

Planes usually don't have a self service food venue.

Not only that but think about all the cruise passengers who flew in to their departure port and get sick within one or two days of boarding.  Lots of them, hard to trace, but not an impossibility more like a probability.

[boscobeans]

Just a thought............. No flaming please different opinions are welcome.. LOL

 

As of yesterday in just New York State about 3,000,000 people in the PHASE #1-A group have received BOTH of the two injections by either Pfizer or Moderna.

 

The next PHASE which is much more encompassing with respect to who is qualified for vaccination has just opened today.

 

With more and more injection sites opening daily and more current vaccines being shipped as well as another new, easy for doctor's offices to store and administer, vaccine within days from approval and shipping  the daily numbers of persons with immunity are climbing at a rapid rate.

 

This immunization program will have a very large percentage of our population immunized within a few months. Millions of potential immunized passengers...

 

Let's look ahead SIX months to August 2021.

 

There should be NO REASON that cruises wouldn't be safe to sail with reduced capacity, mandatory immunization of both crew and passengers, the latest highly effective therapeutics along with several other regulations in effect on many land based venues.

 

Imagine how a typical percentage of the massive millions of potential immunized people wishing to finally get on a ship for a well deserved break can restart the Cruise industry along with all the ancillary support industries like travel agents and agencies, hotels, motels, dock workers, restaurants, airlines, taxis, truck drivers and on and on...

 

For my wife and I who are involved in this program I can say that getting on a ship for a week or two once this is more under control would be heaven sent... We need it.

 

[broberts]

Since testing and detailed tracking is not performed there is no way to know with certainty how much cruising and flying might impact infection rates.

 

CDC, FDA, NIH, etc. are all suggesting only essential travel be undertaken. This suggests that flying will transmit the disease. So the argument over which environment is safer strikes me as rather pointless. Neither cruising not flying is entirely safe.

 

I don't think any serious argument can be made that cruising is essential. On the other hand there are tenuous arguments that can be made for commercial air travel being essential. (Being somewhat cynical, I suspect the real reason commercial air travel is allowed is so that our federal politicians can get home on the weekends.)

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by broberts

[Cruise_Couple]

I'll take a cruise ship any day! I have always had a fear of flying (even though I have flown many times). I also have a fear of my wife but that is another story! 😉 I know the arguments on both sides but in my brain I can rationalize a ship sinking (hopefully slowly) giving me time to at least attempt to save myself versus a plane falling from 30.000 feet in the air. 

[boscobeans]

13 minutes ago, broberts said:

(Being somewhat cynical, I suspect the real reason commercial air travel is allowed is so that our federal politicians can get home on the weekends.)

 

That along with Lobbyists as well as Union and Corporate political donations.

[Iamcruzin]

21 hours ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

The problem with the cruise is it's the same several thousand people for many days in a row.  If you walk past someone in the airport with Covid, you run a fairly low risk of getting it.  But if you spend five or seven days continuously interacting with a group of people that are all also continuously interacting with the same self-contained group, you have the perfect recipe for unmitigated spread.

 

Look, I know the cruise fans here don't like it.  But make no mistake.  Cruising before this is completely mitigated is going to be very, very difficult to do succesfully.

What the  cruise fans fail to remember is that thousands of passengers pass through airports to board planes before they board the ship. Some even fly in a few days earlier, tour the city and sleep in hotels. Not everyone lives in driving distance to the pier. Passengers fly in from all over the world bringing in their own strain of covid to deposit it on the ship.

[Iamcruzin]

21 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I disagree,  there are several. Cruiselines in europe as well as rcl in singapore that have been sailing successful.  Sure, there may be 1 or 2 cases that pop up, but no outbreaks.  MSC restarted their 7 night sailings out of italy on or about jan 25th after a 4 to 6 week break during holidays and high outbreaks in europe but they continue to show the world it can be done.

 Those sailings are control group sailings.  I'm sure it would be fine here too if they were to sail with only Florida residents and were allowed to sail around the Florida peninsular. 

[dv70]

2 hours ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

You can disagree all you want. But you won't have a single epidemiologist or infectious disease specialist on your side.  Pointing out the relative success of a handful of cruises in carefully cultivated markets is in no way representative of the problems that would be inherent in a filled ship out of Florida.

 

The cruise model is PERFECT for magnifying the spread.  I think it's laughable that cruise lovers are in denial about this.  Still in doubt, riddle me this: often did you every hear about a noro outbreak tied to a plane?

Oxford University Press

 

Clinical Infectious Diseases, Volume 50, Issue 9, 1 May 2010

 

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/50/9/1216/314935

Edited February 15, 2021 by dv70

[leisuretraveler223]

5 minutes ago, dv70 said:

Oxford University Press

 

Clinical Infectious Diseases, Volume 50, Issue 9, 1 May 2010

 

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/50/9/1216/314935

 Very good!  But that has also not been reliably replicated.   There aren't frequent reports of this.

 

 Take a focused population of several thousand individuals and put them in a circumstance where for an extended period of time, they are largely restricted to only interact with those several thousand people, and you have the perfect recipe for infectious disease spread.

 

The longest flight in the world currently is between Singapore and Newark and comes in at just over 18 hours with a maximum capacity of 440 people.   440 people for 18 hours, largely remaining in their own seats is nothing for germ spread compared to 4,000 people spending 4-7 days milling about a ship.  I don't mean to sound condescending, but it is clear from the comments here that most lay people simply cannot grasp the significance of this.

[boscobeans]

30 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

 

The longest flight in the world currently is between Singapore and Newark and comes in at just over 18 hours with a maximum capacity of 440 people.   440 people for 18 hours, largely remaining in their own seats is nothing for germ spread compared to 4,000 people spending 4-7 days milling about a ship.  I don't mean to sound condescending, but it is clear from the comments here that most lay people simply cannot grasp the significance of this.

Too many missing bits of information in your equation to make it valid.

 

Most cruises are running at 50% or less capacity with almost 100 square feet of room per passenger. Compared to the area you are encapsulated in with 400 passengers. On a ship 400 passengers would have 40,000 sqft feet to roam around , including their own rooms, verandas and toilet facilities which would be used often during an 18 hour flight.

Aside from boarding and terminal time this is greatly reduced with lower capacity cruises, more pre cruise check in procedures, mask requirements and social distancing requirements.

 

Dining on board has all been changed to have enhanced spacing between tables and buffets, limited at times are no longer self serve.

 

Are the crowds in airports, shuttles, buses,  departure lounges, boarding and deboarding tunnels wiped down and sanitized as frequently as surface on ships that have been Noro infected in the past?

 

Planes, trains and automobiles as well as cruise ships are all too different to compare when dealing with a virus that still has more unanswered questions than answers. 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by boscobeans

[leisuretraveler223]

5 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

Too many missing bits of information in your equation to make it valid.

 

 

First, the impact of potential changes on cruising (reduced capacity, social distancing, dining changes, etc.) while attractive, cannot yet be quantified in terms of impact.  I agree, it's a good effort, but we still can't say how effective it will be.

 

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the unsolvable part of the problem is still the continued comingling of a defined population for an extended period of time.  While the measures mentioned certainly should cut down on the transmissibility, there is genuine concern that the defined population and extended period are going to still be a  major problem.  I wish there was a good visual model to share this, but I've yet to find one.   If you encounter 300 people in a week, there is a risk you could contact a transmissible illness.  But, if you encounter 300 people in a week, all of whom have encountered 300 people in a week, all of whom come from the same cohort of 4,000 people.  And all of those 4,000 people are in the same situation, then the germ model tells us that the increased potential for spread is astronomical.