Is it time to restart cruising from US Ports and join the UK, Europe, Asia and the Caribbean?

[ilikeanswers]

8 hours ago, SelectSys said:

This doesn't create an excuse for ignoring everything that is said by the leaders there.  That would be taking the idea of cancellation to a whole new level!

 

You should always ignore anyone who ascribes blame of their own country's problems to another country😉. They clearly live in a bubble and have no idea what is happening beyond their social circle. That whole article was a joke😒. 

[ilikeanswers]

12 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Then why were the same "experts" .

 

What are the names of these experts? I would love to read their actual speeches

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Then why were the same "experts" who are demanding we get vaccinated now, saying that it would take 3-5 years to get and test a vaccine as recently as 3 or 4 months ago?  Were they stupid when they were saying it?  We're they not aware of the new technology?  Did they think that even the J&J vaccine did not require the serious testing that caused previous vaccines to take 3-5 years?  When a narrative makes a 180 degree U-turn it is never science.
 

I believe I remember Dr. Fauci saying there would be a vaccine by the end of the year.

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

What are the names of these experts? I would love to read their actual speeches

Excellent question.

[navybankerteacher]

9 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Then why were the same "experts" who are demanding we get vaccinated now, saying that it would take 3-5 years to get and test a vaccine as recently as 3 or 4 months ago? ...

 

... When a narrative makes a 180 degree U-turn it is never science.
...

Can you identify those "experts"?  I can recall a number of QUALIFIED people discussing, very early on, the likelihood of a vaccine being developed by year end 2020.  Once more, you are selecting your "experts" to debunk about as carelessly as you select your "facts" to cite.

[navybankerteacher]

22 hours ago, SelectSys said:

...

 

Remember that in today's world that factual relativism suggests that facts themselves contain bias and are relative to the norms of the observer:

...

Factual relativism?   Where did you study sophistry?

Edited April 6, 2021 by navybankerteacher

[Toofarfromthesea]

14 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

What are the names of these experts? I would love to read their actual speeches

As late as September of 2020 the head of the CDC was saying that we wouldn't even be able to START vaccinating people until the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2021 in response to the President's statement that by April of 2021 every American will have the opportunity to get vaccinated.

"

From the Washington Post:

 

President Trump said Friday that every American would have access to a coronavirus vaccine by April, contradicting his own statement of two days earlier and sowing deeper confusion about the process and timing of vaccine approval and distribution.
 

When Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield said earlier in the week that the general public was unlikely to get access to a vaccine until the second and third quarters of 2021, echoing other scientific leaders in the administration, Trump said he’d misspoken."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-says-without-evidence-every-american-will-get-coronavirus-vaccine-by-april/2020/09/18/5281e40e-f9e9-11ea-89e3-4b9efa36dc64_story.html?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_source=twitter

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Toofarfromthesea

[Toofarfromthesea]

4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Can you identify those "experts"?  I can recall a number of QUALIFIED people discussing, very early on, the likelihood of a vaccine being developed by year end 2020.  Once more, you are selecting your "experts" to debunk about as carelessly as you select your "facts" to cite.

The problem isn't my selectivity of experts, it is your selectivity of memory.

[capriccio]

3 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

As late as September of 2020 the head of the CDC was saying that we wouldn't even be able to START vaccinating people until the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2021

Please provide a reputable source for that comment. 

 

Vaccine trials began in August and September 2020 and at that time I remember the comments by the manufacturers were that trials would take about 3 months after sign up of the required number of volunteers and then analysis and authorization by the FDA would take a few more weeks or a month.  In other words, if all went well the first vaccines would be available in limited quantities (as production ramped up) in December.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

As late as September of 2020 the head of the CDC was saying that we wouldn't even be able to START vaccinating people until the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2021 in response to the President's statement that by April of 2021 every American will have the opportunity to get vaccinated.
 

 

 

That is not what the article you quoted states, and it is also not what Redfield ACTUALLY said.

 

Here is a news piece from NPR which is generally very careful with their reporting of quotes/statements:

 

"Redfield (head of CDC) said a vaccine might become available in November or December for first responders but not widely available until "the second or third quarter" of next year. He later testified it would take six to nine months after the Food and Drug Administration had authorized the vaccine before it could be distributed nationally."

 

So, he was not far off. The vaccine WAS only available to limited groups, at least for much of the country until the second quarter (April). I know in my state I was only just able to get my first of two doses TODAY.

 

I am still waiting for you to provide a quote where, as you originally claimed:

 

"Then why were the same "experts" who are demanding we get vaccinated now, saying that it would take 3-5 years to get and test a vaccine as recently as 3 or 4 months ago?"  

 

I am not the world's greatest mathematician, but being off by a few weeks is not exactly the same thing as being off by "3-5 years"....

[SelectSys]

17 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

You should always ignore anyone who ascribes blame of their own country's problems to another country😉. They clearly live in a bubble and have no idea what is happening beyond their social circle. That whole article was a joke😒

You aren't the first person to describe articles in the NYT's as a joke, but I thought it was well reasoned and researched.  I guess we can agree to disagree.  

 

Interesting that you think the French President and his education minister as living in a bubble.  I guess the same things could be said of most national leaders.  Calling them uniformed and unaware is possibly a stretch.  Some presidents may be clueless of their surroundings, but I doubt that includes Macron.

4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Factual relativism?   Where did you study sophistry?

I didn't.  I am simply a product of catholic and public schools.  I studied engineering in university.  That said, I do find some of the jargon tossed about by academia somewhat humorous as well as being "half baked."  It was my quest for humor - not that good at times -  that led to my usage of the phrase above.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by SelectSys

[Mary229]

On 4/5/2021 at 7:36 AM, Mary229 said:

I don't care what you think of my observations about the CDC but you implied I was a bigot and a luddite and that is what I find objectionable. 

Here is an exact quote from your post:

 

Your biases are coming out with the term "second language speakers."

 

FYI - not all US citizens speak "American English" as a first language.  And, IMHO, those who profess that "American English" must be the only language are not well traveled or educated.

............

 

One of the challenges we have is that fully one-third of so called "educated" Americans believe the world is flat.  Thirty-three (33) percent.  Is that the result of our education system?  Result of "fundamentalism?"  Result of the absence of travel? ............

end of quote

 

Maybe you should quit characterizing people and stick to arguing the topic at hand.  It will make for a much better discussion.  I don't mind people disagreeing with me, that is an intellectual process but I do object to maligning or mischaracterizing people based on their positions.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Mary229

[Joebucks]

I have no interest even reading, let alone engaging in the same debate with the same 5-10 people around the special science of cruising safety and lack of path to cruising in the US. It is what it is for now.

 

Add one more industry to the ever-growing list of businesses operating overseas now to escape US over-regulation. People will still cruise. Probably not as many due to the inconvenience of travel. They will continue to go to Mexico, Florida, and other vacation spots by the millions. The outcome will likely be similar no matter what. While some of you can stay locked up forever, many others are out there doing what you fear most. It's about time we talk about actual plans.

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, SelectSys said:

I thought it was well reasoned and researched.  I guess we can agree to disagree.  

 

We get quite a lot of coverage and programming from France so I can tell you it is not well researched. If the author had they would have realised France's problems are not imports from America but deeply ingrained issues in their own society. The governments' policy has been to actively deny these issues because it contradicts the idealistic fantasy they have conjured for themselves, hence why Macron also blames America. If you think that is a well researched article you might need to learn more about France beyond the tourist brochure. 

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

As late as September of 2020 the head of the CDC was saying that we wouldn't even be able to START vaccinating people until the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2021 in response to the President's statement that by April of 2021 every American will have the opportunity to get vaccinated.

"

From the Washington Post:

 

President Trump said Friday that every American would have access to a coronavirus vaccine by April, contradicting his own statement of two days earlier and sowing deeper confusion about the process and timing of vaccine approval and distribution.
 

When Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield said earlier in the week that the general public was unlikely to get access to a vaccine until the second and third quarters of 2021, echoing other scientific leaders in the administration, Trump said he’d misspoken."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-says-without-evidence-every-american-will-get-coronavirus-vaccine-by-april/2020/09/18/5281e40e-f9e9-11ea-89e3-4b9efa36dc64_story.html?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_source=twitter

 

 

"President Trump said Friday that every American would have access to a coronavirus vaccine by April . . "

 

Many places are opening up the vaccine to everyone this month.  It is April 

 

"When Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield said earlier in the week that the general public was unlikely to get access to a vaccine until the second and third quarters of 2021 . . "

 

Where is the conflict.  Last I checked April is the 2nd quarter.   

[SelectSys]

15 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

The governments' policy has been to actively deny these issues because it contradicts the idealistic fantasy they have conjured for themselves,

It seems you have a problem with French leadership and their ideals as it relates to a unified society sharing common values.  Everyone needs ideals/aspirations even if they fall short at times.   

Edited April 7, 2021 by SelectSys

[SelectSys]

Did anyone note NCL's announcement of cruising from the Caribbean and Greece starting in July?  I can't speak to Greece, but more and more the ships sailing from the Caribbean remind of 1930's prohibition of alcohol in the United States. 

 

Just like they did in the 1930's when Californians went to Baja to drink and gamble, people from the US will be flying to the Caribbean to take cruises.  Interesting times ahead if prohibition continues for too much more time.

 

BTW - the survey is still about 2/3 - 1/3 in favor of a restart.  Little sentiment exists here for cruising without fully vaccinated crews and passengers.

[Toofarfromthesea]

14 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

"President Trump said Friday that every American would have access to a coronavirus vaccine by April . . "

 

Many places are opening up the vaccine to everyone this month.  It is April 

 

"When Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield said earlier in the week that the general public was unlikely to get access to a vaccine until the second and third quarters of 2021 . . "

 

Where is the conflict.  Last I checked April is the 2nd quarter.   

Maybe you aren't aware that while it is true that April is in the second quarter, millions of people have had access to, and gotten, a vaccine for months, now.  Months that are NOT in the second quarter.

CDC said general availability woudn't START until the 2nd or 3rd quarter.  Trump said it would be available to everyone by April.  Which turned out to be correct?

[capriccio]

1 minute ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

CDC said general availability woudn't START until the 2nd or 3rd quarter.  Trump said it would be available to everyone by April.  Which turned out to be correct?

I politely asked for a reputable source (my post #109) for these comments when you first made them. I can't locate them.  I am still waiting (as others are too).  Thank you.

[Toofarfromthesea]

23 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

That is not what the article you quoted states, and it is also not what Redfield ACTUALLY said.

 

Here is a news piece from NPR which is generally very careful with their reporting of quotes/statements:

 

"Redfield (head of CDC) said a vaccine might become available in November or December for first responders but not widely available until "the second or third quarter" of next year. He later testified it would take six to nine months after the Food and Drug Administration had authorized the vaccine before it could be distributed nationally."

 

So, he was not far off. The vaccine WAS only available to limited groups, at least for much of the country until the second quarter (April). I know in my state I was only just able to get my first of two doses TODAY.

 

I am still waiting for you to provide a quote where, as you originally claimed:

 

"Then why were the same "experts" who are demanding we get vaccinated now, saying that it would take 3-5 years to get and test a vaccine as recently as 3 or 4 months ago?"  

 

I am not the world's greatest mathematician, but being off by a few weeks is not exactly the same thing as being off by "3-5 years"....

It is hard to find things, using google, that happened months ago, but here is an example I did manage to find.  Even Trump was saying, early on, that it would take 12-18 months, and was derided as being delusional.  But many were saying it would take much longer

 

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/don-t-count-a-covid-19-vaccine-for-at-least-five-years-says-ai-based-forecast

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Maybe you aren't aware that while it is true that April is in the second quarter, millions of people have had access to, and gotten, a vaccine for months, now.  Months that are NOT in the second quarter.

CDC said general availability woudn't START until the 2nd or 3rd quarter.  Trump said it would be available to everyone by April.  Which turned out to be correct?

 

Yes, I'm very aware.  I'm also aware that "general availably" was not happening during the first quarter and general availability was the bone you choose to pick in your earlier commentary.    Happily for most of us,  vaccines are starting to open to everyone, which is the same as saying it is becoming generally available.  It is April and it is the second quarter.  Sounds like the quotes you were so happy to provide were pretty much right on to me.            

[ilikeanswers]

7 hours ago, SelectSys said:

It seems you have a problem with French leadership and their ideals as it relates to a unified society sharing common values.  Everyone needs ideals/aspirations even if they fall short at times.   

 

You do love to misinterpreted things😂 my point wasn't about their ideals but the fact they push it despite the reality being the exact opposite. Problems cannot be fixed if problems are actively ignored or blamed on another country like those people in the article. It is a reason why it has taken till 2021 just to finally get the government to consider age of consent because according to lots of politicians sexual assault doesn't exist in France or are women trying to tarnish men. France's issues have existed long before Twitter or woke was a thing they are definitely not from America but home grown problems. If you truly were interested you would learn more about the real France but it would seem from the quote you chose to use you are more interested in ideals than reality, makes sense why you love that article so much but perhaps now you can understand why I find that article so irksome, to me ideals are hollow if you are not willing to deal with reality and if you are blaming your problems on another country that is about as fantasy land as it gets 😂. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by ilikeanswers

[navybankerteacher]

On 4/6/2021 at 3:40 PM, Mary229 said:

...

 

One of the challenges we have is that fully one-third of so called "educated" Americans believe the world is flat.  Thirty-three (33) percent.  ...

Can you sibstantiate this claim in any fashion?

 

Also, how would you define “educated”?

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

Can you sibstantiate this claim in any fashion?

 

Also, how would you define “educated”?

I was quoting someone, those were not my words 

[broberts]

On 4/6/2021 at 6:44 AM, ontheweb said:

I believe I remember Dr. Fauci saying there would be a vaccine by the end of the year.

 

Did he say just that, or did he say there was a good possibility of a vaccine by the end of the year?