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4-2-2021 CDC has issued new guidance


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50 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Not all that significant really:

 

"Walt Disney World guests will now be able to temporarily remove their face masks while taking an outdoor photo starting April 8, but they must remain stationary and physically distanced from others while doing so, Disney announced on the resort’s website Tuesday."

 

Number of people worldwide who reported getting covid after taking a photo: zero

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pretty interesting--one note--while the cruise lines were showing great profits, the ROI, return on investment is not so great due to large capital investment albeit with high leverage.

 

 

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On 4/6/2021 at 12:51 PM, smokeybandit said:

 

What about Michigan that has kept severe restrictions state-wide and has seen its cases skyrocket?

 

People put way too much stock in masks actually stopping anything.

I think it has more to do with the fact that Michigan has a large anti-virus population, those that believe hook, line, and sinker, that the virus is nothing and it will go away on its own. This is the state that tried to kidnap their own governor for trying to implement safety precautions.

 

I would suggest you bone up on your science and read some actual scientific journals on whether or not masks are effective.  Get real scientific information, not what is being fed to you by your politicians or your news show. Then make up your mind. Hint: The majority of scientific data suggests that masks are effective.

 

Use a scientific search engine and get real science data.

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I wonder if the cruise lines will be as strict as the national retail chains and grocery stores are about wearing masks. No shoes, no shirts, no vaccines....no chance to be a pool chair hog ever again?

 

We ahve booked a cruise for next summer and fall. Everything should shake down by then or we will all be back in the hospital. We will entertain ourselves in the meantime by reading the posts of those who are either pro or con masks and/or vaccination....and not going anywhere by ship unless they obey the stated rules on the contract you sign. 

 

Can't wait to see the social media videos of those getting kicked off the boat in the same way airlines are treating those who try to cheat. The cruise lines are taking big risks to test out protocols this summer. We need to support them in whatever decisions they make to get us back onboard.

 

Nobody is asking anyone to sacrifice their first born to go cruising again. Just cooperate until they get it right. They will. Can't believe how fast scientists developed new technology to address the challenge. Cruise lines are adapting as fast as they can, too.

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, cured said:

 

 

Of course studies can be manipulated. That is why it is so important to look at who funded the study, how long was the study period, what were the study parameters and a whole lot more.

 

For instance, one should take with a grain of salt a study that claims Florida oranges are healthier than any other oranges when its study group was a group of 20 year olds that ate 3 Florida oranges a day and it was completely funded by the Florida Orange Growers Association (just an example, have no idea if there even is a Florida orange growers association.) Yet a study by an independent group of chemical researchers, who tested the chemical makeup of numerous countries' oranges and came up with verifiable, hard numbers, that Florida oranges had x amount more of chemical A and chemical B which are known to contribute to health would be one that is more likely to be believed that Florida oranges are indeed more healthy.

 

One needs to use that thing on top of their necks to assess the validity of any study.

 

The study I presented about masks was a review of many, many different mask studies, thus not skewing to one manufacturer or one interest group.

 

 

You missed my point and I should have made it clearer; my bad.

 

It is not what they say they did in the study, it is what they do not say.

 

Just like over the last year the CDC (and Governors and Mayors) has been telling us what in their opinion we should not do, but they never say things like making sure you improve your immune system. They definitely know. but omitted that. Like Vitamin D, which reduces the severity of Covid. It will not stop it but significantly reduces the severity which is really the important thing. And they spoke out against HCQ and Ivermectin, two drugs that have been around 60 years each with known but low risk side effects. and Zine and Vit C, and all of those should be taken regularly anyway. You do not want to be deficient in that stuff. It makes your immune system stronger.

 

It is why I take CIPRO with me on trips, even in US.

 

The Groucho Marx 2 words of the day we should all remember:

 

Caveat Emptor -Let the  buyer beware.

 

 

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On 4/6/2021 at 9:35 AM, DCGuy64 said:

Please provide a credible source for this assertion. It sounds like you're reading something into their decision that may, or may not be there. For the record, I think you're probably correct, but there are usually business reasons for why these decisions are made.

My car is manufactured by Ford, an American company, in Mexico, using a combination of US, Mexican, and UK parts. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that the same car could be manufactured in the USA using only American parts, but I might not be able to afford such a car. I don't generally buy the argument that cruise lines incorporate and sail under foreign flags "just to flout US law and avoid paying US taxes," except (and this is a biggie) because the regulations and taxes are so onerous as to make it very difficult to turn a profit, and leisure cruising is a profit-making venture. Anyone who uses charitable deductions, has a 401(k) or benefits from the home mortgage interest deduction could be said to be trying to avoid paying taxes, so be careful not to condemn others of infractions of which you yourself are also guilty.

 

On 4/6/2021 at 8:36 AM, NavArch64 said:
As everyone here knows, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd (the parent corporation) is domiciled in Monrovia, Liberia. RCCL (the brand) ships are registered in Nassau, Bahamas. Celebrity ships are registered in Valletta, Malta. All of these choices are deliberately made to avoid US law and US federal taxation to the maximum degree possible. It is ironic to me, that there are those who would like to extend this avoidance to 42 U.S.C Title 42 Chapter 6A as well. In my opinion, foreign companies who operate in the United States should respect the laws of our nation, whatever they may be.

To the best of my knowledge ships are foreign flagged because they have to be. They cannot be US flagged unless they are built by a US shipyard, amongst other requirements. I am sure the argument can be made that they are built in foreign shipyards to lower cost, but consideration must also be given to the number of US shipyards capable of building a cruise ship.

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20 minutes ago, RedIguana said:

 

To the best of my knowledge ships are foreign flagged because they have to be. They cannot be US flagged unless they are built by a US shipyard, amongst other requirements. I am sure the argument can be made that they are built in foreign shipyards to lower cost, but consideration must also be given to the number of US shipyards capable of building a cruise ship.

This is not correct.  There are many US flag ships that were built overseas, I've worked on several, and Maersk Lines, the largest container company in the world has 20 US flag ships, all built overseas.  People confuse "US flag" with "Jones Act or PVSA compliant".  A ship may be built overseas, flagged US, which means US owned and US crewed, and that ship is allowed "foreign" trade, in other words, it can  carry cargo (or passengers) from US ports to foreign ports or vice versa, but cannot carry cargo between two US ports.  That is "US flag".  "Jones Act or PVSA compliant" means the ship has been built in the US, flagged US, US owned, and US crewed.  These vessels may carry cargo between two US ports.

 

The reason that most ships, whether cruise ships or not, are not US flag is simple:  money.  It costs about 3 times as much, every year, to operate a ship as US flag, compared to operating under nearly any other flag.

 

Owners of US flag ships must pay US corporate tax on all revenue earned, since they are a US owner.  Foreign owned corporations, other than shipowners and airlines, must pay US corporate taxes on revenue earned in the US (but not on revenue earned overseas).  The IRS tax code specifically exempts foreign shipowners and foreign airlines from paying any tax on revenue earned in the US.

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41 minutes ago, RedIguana said:

 

To the best of my knowledge ships are foreign flagged because they have to be. They cannot be US flagged unless they are built by a US shipyard, amongst other requirements. I am sure the argument can be made that they are built in foreign shipyards to lower cost, but consideration must also be given to the number of US shipyards capable of building a cruise ship.

as we type, US Treasury Secretary Yellen is trying to form a coalition so that  foreign income of US companies will be taxed at a minimum rate-pretty much the current US Corporate rate, as US companies have moved operations to lower tax venues. It is much the same in results for the cruise lines. They figure if the tax incentive to be outside the US is gone it will bring in taxes at a minimum or even bring back production (except US labor rates and benefits costs  are way above foreign countries.

 

It is not too much different when NY IL CA have high tax rates and individuals change their residence of record to FL or TX  or NV.  A Jock or Hedge fund guy or gal pulling down 10 mil a year can save several hundred thou a year on taxes-which about pays the property taxes on their new ocean view or farm type mansions. Speaking of farms, many high income earners designate their properties in NY as farms and save a bundle.

 

As George Carlin said, its a small group and we ain't in it (otherwise we would be owning our own yacht's vs figuring out what cruise to be on)

Or as a friend said, who used to be in NY Banking, You know somebody is really rich when they "own" their own US Senator--eg big campaign contributor and has top  access.

 

Hence, this quote from above prior  post: Congress did not just insert this code section for the fun of it--Congress was bought and paid for

""The IRS tax code specifically exempts foreign shipowners and foreign airlines from paying any tax on revenue earned in the US.""

 

Edited by HMR74
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26 minutes ago, HMR74 said:

Hence, this quote from above prior  post: Congress did not just insert this code section for the fun of it--Congress was bought and paid for

""The IRS tax code specifically exempts foreign shipowners and foreign airlines from paying any tax on revenue earned in the US.""

However, the clause goes further, and the flag state of the shipping line or airline must extend the same tax exemption to US carriers.

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If foreign-flagged ships don't pay taxes to the US government (on revenue earned in the US), then do they pay none at all, or is it paid to foreign governments instead? (either the country of the ship's registry or the country where the cruise line is headquartered)

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Florida files lawsuit against Biden administration, CDC demanding reopening of cruise industry

DeSantis said the tens of thousands of Floridians who are out of work due to the closure of the industry have suffered for too long.
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 During a press conference in Miami on Thursday, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis announced that the state would be filing a lawsuit demanding that the cruise industry in Florida be reopened.

DeSantis said the lawsuit will be against the Biden administration and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC).

"People are still going to go on cruises... they are just going to fly to the Bahamas and spend the money in the Bahamas," said DeSantis. 

He says that people flying to other countries to go on cruises and spending money that could have spent in Florida is deeply hurting the state's economy.

DeSantis said the tens of thousands of Floridians who are out of work due to the closure of the industry have suffered for too long and wants the federal government to lift the no sail order on cruises.

Florida Attorney General Ashley Moody said that the lawsuit was filed shortly before Thursday's news conference.

First Coast News is working to update this story as the news conference continues.

You can watch it here live starting at 11:30 a.m.

Gov. DeSantis to speak in Miami on Thursday | firstcoastnews.com

Edited by sandebeach
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23 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

If foreign-flagged ships don't pay taxes to the US government (on revenue earned in the US), then do they pay none at all, or is it paid to foreign governments instead? (either the country of the ship's registry or the country where the cruise line is headquartered)

If the flag state country, or the country of incorporation has a corporate tax, then yes.  If not, then no.  CLIA has stated that the majority of taxes paid in the US are social security tax for US employees, and property tax on their headquarters or other real property in the US.  Since their only revenue is generated by the foreign ships, no, they pay no US corporate tax.  Liquor is bought without any state liquor tax, and fuel is exempt from sales tax.  All spare parts and supplies that come to the ship from outside the US do not pay customs duty either, as they are considered "in bond" from entry into the US to the ship (foreign territory).

 

Most "flag of convenience" nations do not asses tax on vessels flying their flag, which is why the companies flock there.

Edited by chengkp75
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6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Most "flag of convenience" nations do not asses tax on vessels flying their flag, which is why the companies flock there.

Thank you, @chengkp75! Maybe if the US government gave the cruise lines the same deal, they'd fly the US flag. LOL

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15 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Thank you, @chengkp75! Maybe if the US government gave the cruise lines the same deal, they'd fly the US flag. LOL

I wonder how the cruise lines would do with labor costs if a different structure was imposed?

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2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Thank you, @chengkp75! Maybe if the US government gave the cruise lines the same deal, they'd fly the US flag. LOL

I doubt it, since as I've said, it is 3 times as expensive to operate as US flag, even without taxes.  With a 20% tax rate, that would be a poor trade off.

1 hour ago, HMR74 said:

I wonder how the cruise lines would do with labor costs if a different structure was imposed?

What structure are you speaking about.  Of the 3 times operating cost for US flag operations, the crew cost is almost 5 times what foreign labor is.  These numbers come from the US Maritime Administration, an agency tasked with promoting US flag shipping.  And, this is for a cargo ship whose crew is 20-25, not a cruise ship with a crew of over a thousand.  Even disregarding wages, the hotel staff on foreign cruise ships (who make up 90% of the crew), are not credentialed merchant mariners.  The USCG requires that anyone assigned an emergency duty (like the stairwell guides and muster station leaders, who are all hotel staff), must be a credentialed merchant mariner.  That requires the cost and time of training classes, the cost and time of applying for and receiving a mariner's credential, and a TWIC card, which allows access to port areas, and which requires an FBI background check.  NCL calculated that it cost about $8000-10,000 just to get a new crew member to the ship for the first time.  It also took about 3-6 months.  So, while an international crewed cruise ship can call the Filipino crewing agency and have a replacement dishwasher on a flight the next day, since there is no pool of credentialed dishwashers in the US, just waiting for a job, it takes weeks to months to get a replacement, or you are paying someone to sit at home awaiting an opening on the ship.

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2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I doubt it, since as I've said, it is 3 times as expensive to operate as US flag, even without taxes.  With a 20% tax rate, that would be a poor trade off.

Maybe it wasn't clear before, sorry. I meant "maybe the US government should make the same deal with foreign-flagged cruise ships as those cruise ships currently get with Liberia, Panama, etc."

If they paid low or no taxes, they might be persuaded. In my home state of KY, the Governor in the 1970s made a deal with Toyota that, IIRC, gave them a tax exemption for a certain period of time. It was very successful, by all accounts. I have a friend who works for them.

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Just now, DCGuy64 said:

Maybe it wasn't clear before, sorry. I meant "maybe the US government should make the same deal with foreign-flagged cruise ships as those cruise ships currently get with Liberia, Panama, etc."

If they paid low or no taxes, they might be persuaded. In my home state of KY, the Governor in the 1970s made a deal with Toyota that, IIRC, gave them a tax exemption for a certain period of time. It was very successful, by all accounts. I have a friend who works for them.

No, I understood you correctly.  You are saying that giving them the same tax deal that they already have, would offset a 300% operating cost differential?

 

Toyota would have had to pay US wages whether they got the tax incentive or not, the cruise lines would not have to pay US wages if they remained foreign flag.

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Just now, chengkp75 said:

No, I understood you correctly.  You are saying that giving them the same tax deal that they already have, would offset a 300% operating cost differential?

 

Toyota would have had to pay US wages whether they got the tax incentive or not, the cruise lines would not have to pay US wages if they remained foreign flag.

OK, so you're saying it's not just the taxes on revenue earned, but also the wage rate, that matters?

That would make sense, but I can see why the people who clean my cabin, fix my meals and pour my drinks often hail from countries with much lower wages than people in the US. It would be ruinously expensive to have to pay US workers, which means there'd be massive consolidation in the industry and cabin prices would skyrocket. I think the only thing keeping prices reasonable and more ships being built is that the wage structure allows the lines to operate at a profit. And it's a win for the workers, because they still make more on ship (so they've told me, anyway) than they would back home.

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On 4/6/2021 at 2:51 PM, smokeybandit said:

 

What about Michigan that has kept severe restrictions state-wide and has seen its cases skyrocket?

 

People put way too much stock in masks actually stopping anything.

My entire Province is now under a mandatory 4 week Stay at Home order that started at midnight today. We can only leave the house for essentials (grocery and work if essential and can't be done from home). Even Costco and Walmart who have been raking it in the past year while other businesses failed are now mandated to only sell food and medicine and such, all other aisles are to be off limits. They are saying we're now in the the thick of our third wave and our numbers are climbing. We've been wearing masks the entire year and I haven't seen anyone in my day to day travels not complying with said rules. 

 

I agree, masks don't seem to be doing any good at all. 

 

Since this began I personally know of 2 people who have tested positive for Covid, 2 people. 

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8 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

OK, so you're saying it's not just the taxes on revenue earned, but also the wage rate, that matters?

That would make sense, but I can see why the people who clean my cabin, fix my meals and pour my drinks often hail from countries with much lower wages than people in the US. It would be ruinously expensive to have to pay US workers, which means there'd be massive consolidation in the industry and cabin prices would skyrocket. I think the only thing keeping prices reasonable and more ships being built is that the wage structure allows the lines to operate at a profit. And it's a win for the workers, because they still make more on ship (so they've told me, anyway) than they would back home.

Not to mention they'd be subject to US labour laws. No more 18 hour work days among soooo many others. 

 

 

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