CDC says no more masks for the vaccinated, so now what?

[nocl]

10 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

As an attorney, I am aware of the law regarding vaccinations.   However, I believe the factor that would force a mandatory vaccination on the public would be a high mortality rate.  Smallpox has a history fatality rate of at least 30%.  The Black Plague wiped out 1/3 of the population of Europe in the 14th Century and that wasn't the only time it hit Europe.  The fatality rate for COVID19 is less than 1%, and the vaccines have only been provisionally approved.

 

I certainly remember the 50s and early 60s when polio vaccines were eagerly accepted, because of the obvious consequences of that disease, include President FDR.

Keep in mind that schools require vaccination in most states for illnesses with far less mortality rates.  

 

When it comes to businesses, especially health care  the criteria is more about how infectious the illness is with many even requiring the annual flu vaccine.

 

The Pfizer has applied for full approval and should have that status in a few months.  At that point you will see many institutions including the military moving from voluntary to mandatory.  Many universities have already announced their intent to do the same.

[songbird1329]

Actually, Jacobson has been cited as precedent for mask mandates and stay at home orders in the current pandemic. 

 

And the Court noted an exception for situations where mandating a vaccine would be considered cruel and inhumane.

 

Interestingly, the Jacobson Court was faced with an argument that vaccines would not halt the spread of disease and also an argument that the vaccines would actually cause illness.

[Oville]

On 5/16/2021 at 3:16 PM, LGW59 said:

Real time data/fact:  walking down the street in PTOWN, easily more than 90% no mask, YAY!  We had to go to CVS for a few things, at the pharmacy there were 7 people in process of being vaccinated (shot 1 or 2) I have no clue and every single one of them was very clearly under 30 years old.  Scientific link to any damn article or publication, no, real time from my own eyes.  Now we are headed to the pub for a Stella!

Yes, I read the town had dropped wearing of masks while walking outside downtown, great news.  Looking at the weather you’ve hit some really beautiful days, enjoy.  We’ll be on the Cape Wednesday and delighted to see the temps will be in the low 70s and then warming up over the weekend.  
 

Enjoy your stay!

Edited May 18, 2021 by Oville

[TeeRick]

Here are the CDC guidelines for the fully vaccinated.  I am really not sure what all the debate is about on this thread.  Most of us that are fully vaccinated can resume normal activities but there might be local exceptions and workplace exceptions and of course the travel exceptions (airplanes, airports, buses, public transportation).   My state is following these guidelines.  Hopefully cruises will be able to resume soon for the fully vaccinated.  I have noticed that some people in my community are slowly removing masks - almost a response of "can it be true?".  I think the same is happening on threads across Cruise Critic from what I see.  Many of us have been conditioned to be extra cautious and the mask has become something of a security blanket for the past 15 months.  But here we are now and I'm vaccinated and ready to move back to near normalcy.  But it does feel a bit weird at first without the mask I must admit.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html?ACSTrackingID=USCDC_2067-DM57648&ACSTrackingLabel=When You’ve Been Fully Vaccinated | COVID-19&deliveryName=USCDC_2067-DM57648

Edited May 18, 2021 by TeeRick

[K.T.B.]

12 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

I agree regarding those that fraudulently fake their vaccinations is abhorrent.  That is a dishonest and sick choice.

 

They're only putting themselves a risk.  Nature's way of weeding out stupidity I suppose.

 

Here's hoping it doesn't affect those who are going about it the right way.

[Orator]

The CDC guidelines might be irrelevant when applied to cruise lines. Their decisions will be based on their own assessment of what is required to prevent any outbreak. Even a few cases with minor symptoms can place the cruise line's future in jeopardy. They are In a fight for survival and will do everything it takes to protect themselves!

[pavementends]

2 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

They're only putting themselves a risk.  Nature's way of weeding out stupidity I suppose.

 

Here's hoping it doesn't affect those who are going about it the right way.

 

(Because vaccines are not 100% effective) they are not only putting themselves at risk. They are mostly putting themselves at risk.

 

Mostly- "think of it as evolution in action."

[nocl]

3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Here are the CDC guidelines for the fully vaccinated.  I am really not sure what all the debate is about on this thread.  Most of us that are fully vaccinated can resume normal activities but there might be local exceptions and workplace exceptions and of course the travel exceptions (airplanes, airports, buses, public transportation).   My state is following these guidelines.  Hopefully cruises will be able to resume soon for the fully vaccinated.  I have noticed that some people in my community are slowly removing masks - almost a response of "can it be true?".  I think the same is happening on threads across Cruise Critic from what I see.  Many of us have been conditioned to be extra cautious and the mask has become something of a security blanket for the past 15 months.  But here we are now and I'm vaccinated and ready to move back to near normalcy.  But it does feel a bit weird at first without the mask I must admit.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html?ACSTrackingID=USCDC_2067-DM57648&ACSTrackingLabel=When You’ve Been Fully Vaccinated | COVID-19&deliveryName=USCDC_2067-DM57648

The issue is more about if the cruise lines are going to require vaccination or not.

 

If they do then everything becomes pretty simple.  No testing, B2B potentially allowed, no port restrictions unless required by the country, probably no masks on board.

 

Considerably different if they do not go the full vaccination or at least the 95/98 CDC threshold.

 

In that case you either have a cruise that is much more restrictive or you have a cruise with two sets of rules, one for the vaccinated, one for the not vaccinated which would most likely become a mess in one way or another.

 

If the later the UK study on transmission from vaccinated individuals to members in the same household becomes rather interesting.  It showed that while there was a reduction in transmission from vaccinated vs unvaccinated the reduction was only 40-50%.  Keeping in mind that the one environment that has demonstrated higher transmission than members of the same household are cruise ships. That could be significant if you have untested vaccinated individuals (per CDC recommendations that at a cruise lines option the testing would not be required for vaccinated individuals) going on a cruise with large numbers of unvaccinated individuals. If everyone is vaccinate not much of an issue.

 

Things would be much easier if the cruise lines would quit playing around and would adopt the vaccinated option.

[TeeRick]

1 minute ago, nocl said:

Things would be much easier if the cruise lines would quit playing around and would adopt the vaccinated option.

Yes that is the simplest thing to do at least for maybe the first year of cruising.  Maybe longer.  I think there will be cruises on mostly adult lines like Celebrity and Viking, luxury lines that the vaccine option will be a given.  But lines deriving a lot of revenue from kids (Carnival, RCCL, NCL) might see it otherwise.

[nocl]

Just now, TeeRick said:

Yes that is the simplest thing to do at least for maybe the first year of cruising.  Maybe longer.  I think there will be cruises on mostly adult lines like Celebrity and Viking, luxury lines that the vaccine option will be a given.  But lines deriving a lot of revenue from kids (Carnival, RCCL, NCL) might see it otherwise.

At the rate clinical trials are proceeding you already have 12 and over.  You should have data for 2 and above by this fall. So at most requiring vaccines would only impact the number of children for a couple of months.  NCL has already said that they are going fully vaccinated.

 

The economics would indicate that it would be better to get cruising now without children than to wait, unless their intent is to continue to try and continue to out wait the CSO.

[TeeRick]

3 minutes ago, nocl said:

At the rate clinical trials are proceeding you already have 12 and over.  You should have data for 2 and above by this fall. So at most requiring vaccines would only impact the number of children for a couple of months.  NCL has already said that they are going fully vaccinated.

 

The economics would indicate that it would be better to get cruising now without children than to wait, unless their intent is to continue to try and continue to out wait the CSO.

Yes you are right about the kids getting access now (12 and over) and later this year for younger ages.  But I have a hunch that many parents will be highly resistant to vaccinating at least the younger kids.  So will cruise lines that cater to families require all ages vaccinated?  Kind of a difficult choice for them.

[UnorigionalName]

3 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Yes you are right about the kids getting access now (12 and over) and later this year for younger ages.  But I have a hunch that many parents will be highly resistant to vaccinating at least the younger kids.  So will cruise lines that cater to families require all ages vaccinated?  Kind of a difficult choice for them.

 

Why do people act like there's no pragmatic split where >95% of the passengers can be vaccinated.

 

The science does not seem to show a few unvaccinated kids are that high risk.

 

Why are the only 2 options 100% mRNA vaccines or complete anarchy.

[Spif Barwunkel]

Unfortunately the onset of this virus, the subsequent and continued battle with same, which includes doubts and uncertainties about a return to normalcy and cruising, has been anything but black and white. Perhaps a forth installment to be added to the Fifty Shades Trilogy, medical version.     

[peacefulOR]

On 5/13/2021 at 3:48 PM, medtech71 said:

If you’re vaccinated, what do you care if someone else isn’t?

 

 

 

 

That's easy. There are recent cases of vaccinated people acquiring COVID again (maybe one of the new variants) and the vaccination may make the illness less severe but doesn't guarantee that we won't get it or be a carrier. Also, I believe that we need to act together to make it safer for everyone. I care, a lot, if someone doesn't use every available precaution that we know of to protect the more susceptible and fragile. I, for one, am ready to sail again and without masks or eating boxed meals in my cabin. I respect other people's freedom of choice  as long as they abstain from behaviors than endanger others.

 

You're a med tech? Well, I'm a RN, BSN, with years of hospital experience including infection control, now retired but volunteering at a hospital. Yes, we're vaccinated and still wear masks, wash our hands, and do what we can to educate others. I hope that you are asking this question to stir the pot with comments and are vaccinated yourself if still working.  We are fortunate that our education and experience will influence our personal choices; too many today rely on politicians and fearmongers to follow.

Putting soap box away now; caring about others in just one of my passions. Safe sailing everybody.

 

Rainey

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TeeRick]

8 hours ago, peacefulOR said:

That's easy. There are recent cases of vaccinated people acquiring COVID again (maybe one of the new variants) and the vaccination may make the illness less severe but doesn't guarantee that we won't get it or be a carrier. Also, I believe that we need to act together to make it safer for everyone. I care, a lot, if someone doesn't use every available precaution that we know of to protect the more susceptible and fragile. I, for one, am ready to sail again and without masks or eating boxed meals in my cabin. I respect other people's freedom of choice  as long as they abstain from behaviors than endanger others.

 

You're a med tech? Well, I'm a RN, BSN, with years of hospital experience including infection control, now retired but volunteering at a hospital. Yes, we're vaccinated and still wear masks, wash our hands, and do what we can to educate others. I hope that you are asking this question to stir the pot with comments and are vaccinated yourself if still working.  We are fortunate that our education and experience will influence our personal choices; too many today rely on politicians and fearmongers to follow.

Putting soap box away now; caring about others in just one of my passions. Safe sailing everybody.

 

Rainey

Rainey you are making good points but in the US the vaccines are readily available.  Yes there still might be a few mild cases of COVID amongst the vaccinated.  That is well documented and happened in the clinical trials.  Those that wish to be protected by vaccination have chosen to do so.  Or are in the process.  Now ages 12 and over too.  No wait for a vaccine in most places.  The CDC has issued new guidelines for most vaccinated to go without masks in all but a few public situations.  Possibly hospitals and other private institutions will continue a mask policy for a while longer.  So in most cases not wearing masks if vaccinated is not a serious health threat to others who are vaccinated.  And the viral load from the very small number of vaccinated-but-infected has proven to be very low.  So the only people at risk of severe COVID, hospitalization and worse are the ones who choose not to get vaccinated.  It is their choice and they must continue with masks.  And a few unfortunate people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons- but these folks know to be extra careful.  So many (including me, a vaccine scientist) are following the CDC and are getting on with life and cannot worry any longer about those who choose not to get vaccinated in the USA.

[PTC DAWG]

On 5/17/2021 at 9:46 PM, Oville said:

Yes, I read the town had dropped wearing of masks while walking outside downtown, great news.  Looking at the weather you’ve hit some really beautiful days, enjoy.  We’ll be on the Cape Wednesday and delighted to see the temps will be in the low 70s and then warming up over the weekend.  
 

Enjoy your stay!

Masks required,  walking outside?  What a joke at any time.  

[nocl]

3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Rainey you are making good points but in the US the vaccines are readily available.  Yes there still might be a few mild cases of COVID amongst the vaccinated.  That is well documented and happened in the clinical trials.  Those that wish to be protected by vaccination have chosen to do so.  Or are in the process.  Now ages 12 and over too.  No wait for a vaccine in most places.  The CDC has issued new guidelines for most vaccinated to go without masks in all but a few public situations.  Possibly hospitals and other private institutions will continue a mask policy for a while longer.  So in most cases not wearing masks if vaccinated is not a serious health threat to others who are vaccinated.  And the viral load from the very small number of vaccinated-but-infected has proven to be very low.  So the only people at risk of severe COVID, hospitalization and worse are the ones who choose not to get vaccinated.  It is their choice and they must continue with masks.  And a few unfortunate people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons- but these folks know to be extra careful.  So many (including me, a vaccine scientist) are following the CDC and are getting on with life and cannot worry any longer about those who choose not to get vaccinated in the USA.

Just to be clear not only are there mild cases, but there are also some serious cases and deaths.

 

The number is greatly reduced, but not eliminated.

 

The best large study on transmission from vaccinated individuals was the UK study on same household transmission looking at both AZ and Pfizer vaccines.  It showed that same household transmission was reduced by 40-50% when the initial case was a vaccinated individual compared to the initial case being an unvaccinated individual.

 

So while you are using statements such as "the viral load is very low" the UK study has clearly indicated that transmission in close settings still occurs.  Also keep in mind that the one setting that has demonstrated higher levels of transmission than members of the same household is cruise ships.

 

Other studies have indicated that the viral load is reduced by something in the range by 75-80% in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals and therefore transmission is somewhat reduced.  There is no identified level for the amount of virus needed for infection.

 

The CDC recommendations have one glaring flaw in a mixed population ship.  That is that the vaccinated do not need to be tested.  In a ship that is fully vaccinated or at least in the 95/98% criteria not much of an issue, but if you combine that with a ship where vaccination is not required and there is a substantial number of unvaccinated onboard it does provide for a case to board the ship by passing testing.

[cangelmd]

3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Rainey you are making good points but in the US the vaccines are readily available.  Yes there still might be a few mild cases of COVID amongst the vaccinated.  That is well documented and happened in the clinical trials.  Those that wish to be protected by vaccination have chosen to do so.  Or are in the process.  Now ages 12 and over too.  No wait for a vaccine in most places.  The CDC has issued new guidelines for most vaccinated to go without masks in all but a few public situations.  Possibly hospitals and other private institutions will continue a mask policy for a while longer.  So in most cases not wearing masks if vaccinated is not a serious health threat to others who are vaccinated.  And the viral load from the very small number of vaccinated-but-infected has proven to be very low.  So the only people at risk of severe COVID, hospitalization and worse are the ones who choose not to get vaccinated.  It is their choice and they must continue with masks.  And a few unfortunate people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons- but these folks know to be extra careful.  So many (including me, a vaccine scientist) are following the CDC and are getting on with life and cannot worry any longer about those who choose not to get vaccinated in the USA.

Hear, hear.

We are almost at that tipping point of community responsibility where that is still an important outcome of vaccination, but at the same time, people who aren't vaccinated are just making a choice that they will personally have to live with. I hate it. because as a physician we have to deal with the results of those choices, but I also hate that people smoke and that we have to deal with the devastating results of those choices.

[barbels]

I will not cruise on a ship that isn't fully vaccinated.  Period.  And I'm sure I'm not the only one.  If by some miracle my December 12 Anthem of the Seas cruise actually goes, I will cancel if the ship is not 100% vaccinated.   NCL here I come.  Yuch.

[cangelmd]

7 minutes ago, nocl said:

Just to be clear not only are there mild cases, but there are also some serious cases and deaths.

 

The number is greatly reduced, but not eliminated.

 

The best large study on transmission from vaccinated individuals was the UK study on same household transmission looking at both AZ and Pfizer vaccines.  It showed that same household transmission was reduced by 40-50% when the initial case was a vaccinated individual compared to the initial case being an unvaccinated individual.

 

So while you are using statements such as "the viral load is very low" the UK study has clearly indicated that transmission in close settings still occurs.  Also keep in mind that the one setting that has demonstrated higher levels of transmission than members of the same household is cruise ships.

 

Other studies have indicated that the viral load is reduced by something in the range by 75-80% in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals and therefore transmission is somewhat reduced.  There is no identified level for the amount of virus needed for infection.

 

The CDC recommendations have one glaring flaw in a mixed population ship.  That is that the vaccinated do not need to be tested.  In a ship that is fully vaccinated or at least in the 95/98% criteria not much of an issue, but if you combine that with a ship where vaccination is not required and there is a substantial number of unvaccinated onboard it does provide for a case to board the ship by passing testing.

I don't want to argue Nocl, because everything you are saying is true, but this is where risk becomes a judgment call, and people have to assess their own personal risk and that of their loved ones.

 

I have mixed feelings about testing, as the available testing does not do what we really want it to do. Some people are going to be denied boarding by testing and some are going to board with active disease and a negative test - doesn't matter if it is PCR or antigen, just have to have enough tests and it will happen. Also, more people will be denied boarding with a false positive than will be denied boarding with a true positive - so it is a nightmare in many ways for the cruiselines, more of a nightmare than requiring vaccines.

 

What is your definition (I know you have spent a lot of time with real data) of "a substantial number of unvaccinated"? I was telling DH this am, if you assume 25% of people lie on their boarding documents and go to the trouble to get a false vaccination card and that 98% of the crew are truly vaccinated, because the lines can control that, then the ship still has one of the highest percentages of vaccinated people in the US - although it is definitely by any scientific measure a high risk environment.

[ch175]

20 minutes ago, barbels said:

I will not cruise on a ship that isn't fully vaccinated.  Period.  And I'm sure I'm not the only one.  If by some miracle my December 12 Anthem of the Seas cruise actually goes, I will cancel if the ship is not 100% vaccinated.   NCL here I come.  Yuch.

No cruise ship, ever, will be 100% vaccinated.

[nocl]

17 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

I don't want to argue Nocl, because everything you are saying is true, but this is where risk becomes a judgment call, and people have to assess their own personal risk and that of their loved ones.

 

I have mixed feelings about testing, as the available testing does not do what we really want it to do. Some people are going to be denied boarding by testing and some are going to board with active disease and a negative test - doesn't matter if it is PCR or antigen, just have to have enough tests and it will happen. Also, more people will be denied boarding with a false positive than will be denied boarding with a true positive - so it is a nightmare in many ways for the cruiselines, more of a nightmare than requiring vaccines.

 

What is your definition (I know you have spent a lot of time with real data) of "a substantial number of unvaccinated"? I was telling DH this am, if you assume 25% of people lie on their boarding documents and go to the trouble to get a false vaccination card and that 98% of the crew are truly vaccinated, because the lines can control that, then the ship still has one of the highest percentages of vaccinated people in the US - although it is definitely by any scientific measure a high risk environment.

It seems like you are assuming that the ships are going to require vaccination and the only unvaccinated will be those that lie on their boarding documents.

 

I will remind you that at this time the only major cruise line company that has said that they will require vaccination for cruises from the US is NCL. And that they have not submitted the documentation to the CDC that legally commits them to do so. Putting even more doubt on that stand is that NCL has sent out letters asking for volunteers for test cruises.  Something that would not be needed if they are going the fully vaccinated (atleast the 95/98%) route.

 

Neither of the other companies (RCL or CCL) have made a commitment in one direction or another.  Until they do we cannot eliminate that cruises will depart the US that do not require vaccination.

 

That is why I made the comment concerning the gap that if you have a cruise that does not require vaccination and therefore have a substantial percentage of unvaccinated on board, and do not test those vaccinated you do have an area of exposure for the virus to enter the environment and then have an opportunity for transmission.

 

Everyone seems to be assuming 1. that the cruise lines will require vaccination or 2. that the relaxed rules for those vaccinated on board (masking, excursions, testing) will automatically apply to all cruises.

 

The CDC stated that the cruise line could apply those measures to those vaccinated at their option.  Which would mean that they would have to address in their plan for cruises how exactly that would be managed on board.  Not that they would automatically apply to all vaccinated on all cruises.

[cangelmd]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

It seems like you are assuming that the ships are going to require vaccination and the only unvaccinated will be those that lie on their boarding documents.

 

I will remind you that at this time the only major cruise line company that has said that they will require vaccination for cruises from the US is NCL. And that they have not submitted the documentation to the CDC that legally commits them to do so. Putting even more doubt on that stand is that NCL has sent out letters asking for volunteers for test cruises.  Something that would not be needed if they are going the fully vaccinated (atleast the 95/98%) route.

 

Neither of the other companies (RCL or CCL) have made a commitment in one direction or another.  Until they do we cannot eliminate that cruises will depart the US that do not require vaccination.

 

That is why I made the comment concerning the gap that if you have a cruise that does not require vaccination and therefore have a substantial percentage of unvaccinated on board, and do not test those vaccinated you do have an area of exposure for the virus to enter the environment and then have an opportunity for transmission.

 

Everyone seems to be assuming 1. that the cruise lines will require vaccination or 2. that the relaxed rules for those vaccinated on board (masking, excursions, testing) will automatically apply to all cruises.

 

The CDC stated that the cruise line could apply those measures to those vaccinated at their option.  Which would mean that they would have to address in their plan for cruises how exactly that would be managed on board.  Not that they would automatically apply to all vaccinated on all cruises.

Yes, my thought is that we are only talking about cruises in the nearest future - requiring passengers be vaccinated and relaxing rules. I don't know at all how long this will last - ?maybe until the CSO expires? That's about enough time to get information from the original vaccine study participants about durability of immunity, although the only way that can really be judged is by rising cases within the study cohort, we already know that the measurable humoral immunity wanes, we don't know when or if actual protection wanes. Also time to get children vaccinated.

 

If a cruiseline chooses to go forward without "95% vaccination" (?Carnival, ?Disney), they will have to do the test cruises from the earlier guidelines and will have to come up with some way to distinguish vaccinated from non-vacced passengers. That all sounds like a big mess, so yes, my assumption is that if the financials of the cruise line allow it,everyone will be expected to be vaccinated. I think that will work for Celebrity and other adult predominant lines - I think they will work out some of the protocols for their sister lines in the larger groups.

[peacefulOR]

2 hours ago, cangelmd said:

Hear, hear.

We are almost at that tipping point of community responsibility where that is still an important outcome of vaccination, but at the same time, people who aren't vaccinated are just making a choice that they will personally have to live with. I hate it. because as a physician we have to deal with the results of those choices, but I also hate that people smoke and that we have to deal with the devastating results of those choices.

You are spot on for me. Lung cancer and COPD aren't  pretty either but at least the cruise ships I sail on have designated outdoor smoking areas. We can choose to avoid those areas.  With Covid,however, we have unvaccinated people who can simply remove their masks at will and blend in with the vaccinated. Do I think that my words will change their minds? Nope. My doctor says that venting truth is good for my blood pressure!

 

[Covepointcruiser]

I don’t know why CH175 is stating that there won’t be a 100% vaccinated ship.   We re traveling on Seabourn in July and the ship will be 100% vaccinated, both passengers and crew.   Testing for COVID will also be required prior to boarding.   They are not the only line with these requirements and I am glad they are taking passenger safety seriously.