US cruisers stranded in Europe

[suzyluvs2cruise]

6 hours ago, whirlybird3 said:

Curious for those who have currently tested positive?  Is this your first time catching COVID?  I'm currently receiving from COVID and plain on sailing in Europe in September (past the 90 day mark).  Concerned about catching COVID again. 

My 1st time. DH had a bad case on Aug '21 and spent 7 days in the hospital. I didn't get it then and...hopefully...he won't get this one. 

[goofysmom99]

9 hours ago, bananavan said:

And for all of the very brilliant people who suggest we should have known this was going to happen, take your condescension and hold on to it until you find yourself in an unexpected situation that you had no control over. 

I guess I feel sympathy for you and the situation in which you find yourself (maybe not empathy, however).  I reluctantly had to cancel my spring TA because I felt there was too much Omicron risk.   Only have ~9 weeks remaining before I have to decide again if the risk for an October TA is too great.  

[kirtihk]

16 minutes ago, goofysmom99 said:

Only have ~9 weeks remaining before I have to decide again if the risk for an October TA is too great.  

only 9 Weeks... Over 2 years ago we measured our future cruise expectation by Days.  What an expectation unit of measure will we use a couple years from now? 9 Months? 9 Years?

 

Happy Voyage, voyage, everyone!

Edited May 16, 2022 by kirtihk

[Dermotsgirl]

3 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

I totally agree and would add that after all Bananavan has endured it's hardly surprising that she is getting grumpy and testy with everyone saying should have done this, should have done that.

 

Whatever way you look at it the whole affair has been a mess with policy being made up on the hoof.

 

The truth is Celebrity could have made this a whole lot easier, it seems Banana was probably the first to test their new policy and has been a guinea pig.  She is clearly unwell with more than covid and therefore deserves to be cut a bit of slack rather than being accused of being rude.

 

Certainly when it comes down to it so far from the many other unfortunates in this situation none has been so difficult or drawn out.  I wish Bananavan nothing but a quick solution to all this.  Everyone of us sailing soon should put our hands together for her posting it like it is so we can make informed decisions on actual experience.

I agree. I think Bananavan has been very brave to describe her experiences with such searing honesty. 

[Empehi]

Everyone that cruises out of the US and must test to fly home knows the insidious nature of this virus.

There is no vaccination to prevent ... perhaps the jab will lessen the symptoms or maybe the new variant has lesser symptoms anyway.  This has been a godsend for the cruise companies as hardly anyone is getting extremely ill from COVID and there has been very, very few hospitalizations. The cruise lines will continue cruising under these circumstances.

 

Now, we as cruiser have to decide if we will accept the protocols the cruise lines will institute if one catches COVID, will we accept the protocols of the countries we are traveling to and finally will we accept the re-entry protocols to get home. It is up to us .... go with your eyes wide open or do not go.

 

e

[Ommadawn]

11 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Again, and infect everyone you come in contact with?  That is your "plan?"

 

 

Please read the entire post. The last part says "this is my emergency back up plan if I absolutely must return for an emergency". If I am stuck in Europe for 10 days because the US will not allow me to fly home and my 80 year old father is on his death bed dying, then, yes, I would do this.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Ommadawn

[carolinagal]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:00 PM, suzyluvs2cruise said:

Were your sister and her friends offered any options? Did your sister have symptoms?

Update on sister and friends stuck in Amsterdam after

April 30th, TA cruise on Apex.  All eight are in the same downtown hotel and not confined to their rooms. They can eat in restaurants, tour the museums, etc.  It seems weird that they can do all this and yet they can't be isolated on a 7 hour flight back to the state. I'm thinking plastic barrier on plane to separate them from other passengers.  

This is so hard on everyone. We all just want to be normal and enjoy life.

I'm sure all the cruise companies are trying their best to stay in business, but the current situation is really, really bad. 

Good luck and safe travels to all who are about to embark on their journeys.

 

[carolinagal]

On 5/15/2022 at 6:13 AM, suzyluvs2cruise said:

Sorry to hear this. There are at least 50 of us on deck 6 in quarantine on APEX who tested positive on the TA cruise. Did your sister and her group test onboard or in the cruise terminal? I hope they all have mild cases. 

 

[carolinagal]

They were tested on board. Some in her party were isolated around the 8th day, but my sister tested positive on the last day before the ship docked in the Netherlands. 

They are all feeling ok. As I said before, they are not confined to their hotel in Amsterdam.  They just want to get home.

[cavaaller]

@carolinagal I am sorry to hear your sister and friends are stuck in the NL.

Do you know if the hotel was suggested/provided by the NL authorities?(I know they (or celebrity)  will have to pay for it but I wonder if they (NL) use designated hotels like Italy does?

[Arizona Wildcat]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:57 AM, 5waldos said:

That is true flying around the EU but "Most EU Member States require that travellers arriving from outside Europe are tested for coronavirus no more than 72 hours before departure." So flying TA in either direction seems to require a test. Flying around the EU is like flying around the US- no testing for most countries. 

 

And I rather wish that the mask mandate had not been dropped for domestic flights. It is easier to protect yourself if everyone is wearing masks. It puts two barriers between people- and two is better than one. And unfortunately, some people like to flaunt their non-maskness in unnecessary ways, making it more difficult for those of us who wish to be careful. 

The important thing here is MOST.  One can fly to Iceland from the US without a covid test.  But a test is required to fly to the US.

If you are travelling outside your home country - I am outside the US now - you risk testing positive when flying.  Prepare best you can, but take personal responsibility for what can happen.  Jim tested positive despite taking precautions beyond those I would have taken.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

4 hours ago, carolinagal said:

They were tested on board. Some in her party were isolated around the 8th day, but my sister tested positive on the last day before the ship docked in the Netherlands. 

They are all feeling ok. As I said before, they are not confined to their hotel in Amsterdam.  They just want to get home.

Have they gone to pick up their passports yet ? 
so she tested positive and is walking around , are they atleast masking ? 

[suzyluvs2cruise]

10 hours ago, carolinagal said:

They were tested on board. Some in her party were isolated around the 8th day, but my sister tested positive on the last day before the ship docked in the Netherlands. 

They are all feeling ok. As I said before, they are not confined to their hotel in Amsterdam.  They just want to get home.

If your sister tested positive on the last day she is most likely still positive. Has she....or any of her friends... tested again to know if they're negative and can be out and about? I have my 5 day test today and hope to test negative. We have a FB group for those of us in quarantine and 3 who tested on day 5 were still positive. 

[Ex-Airbalancer]

2 hours ago, suzyluvs2cruise said:

If your sister tested positive on the last day she is most likely still positive. Has she....or any of her friends... tested again to know if they're negative and can be out and about? I have my 5 day test today and hope to test negative. We have a FB group for those of us in quarantine and 3 who tested on day 5 were still positive. 

My wife brother is still on board, David Conner 

[BigAl94]

7 hours ago, carolinagal said:

They were tested on board. Some in her party were isolated around the 8th day, but my sister tested positive on the last day before the ship docked in the Netherlands. 

They are all feeling ok. As I said before, they are not confined to their hotel in Amsterdam.  They just want to get home.

Current Covid requirements in Holland 

Health resources

If you have coronavirus symptoms:

• Remain inside. Do not leave your home or hotel room. 

• Arrange to be tested for coronavirus. Call 0800-1202 to schedule an appointment. 

• If you test positive for coronavirus, you and any travelling companions must self-isolate in your holiday accommodation for two weeks.

[Mark_T]

1 hour ago, BigAl94 said:

Current Covid requirements in Holland 

Health resources

If you have coronavirus symptoms:

• Remain inside. Do not leave your home or hotel room. 

• Arrange to be tested for coronavirus. Call 0800-1202 to schedule an appointment. 

• If you test positive for coronavirus, you and any travelling companions must self-isolate in your holiday accommodation for two weeks.

That doesn't seem to match the current Government guidelines for Netherlands...

 

https://quarantainecheck.rijksoverheid.nl/en

[Ride-The-Waves]

10 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

 

 

Please read the entire post. The last part says "this is my emergency back up plan if I absolutely must return for an emergency". If I am stuck in Europe for 10 days because the US will not allow me to fly home and my 80 year old father is on his death bed dying, then, yes, I would do this.

This "what if" scenario is not a justification for spreading COVID-19 to hundreds even thousands of others.  Countries have enacted travel restrictions to reduce the spread of COVID-19.  They have not enacted these restrictions to encumber their own citizens or other travelers.  Flaunting these rules only exacerbates the spread and deadlinness of the virus.

[Tony UK]

On 5/16/2022 at 1:19 PM, Bo1953 said:

Of course we want sympathy for our 'individual' situations in regards to this, otherwise what is the need to post about it here on CC, especially when we believe there is a legitimate beef to air vs just stating the experience being enjoyed at the moment???

 

Then, what is the reason we as 'potential' passengers are not held to higher standards in terms of being realistic? Do you not believe that we as travelers need not do a minimum amount of research before leaving home or even before plopping down that final payment for a cruise to know what is going on, rather we read or post to CC or not?

 

Most of the posts by those caught up in the situation, for whatever reason and even if they did not know about C-19 running rampant on ships and planes and in various countries they will visit or not, will justify the reason for being upset and etc... not to say the admonishments are not justified to some degree but to dodge the responsibility because they had other things to take care of before sailing and etc... is not justification, IMO.

 

I say, if ANYONE here on CC catches me retort similarly were I in this situation, please laugh at me and point me back to my previous postings. I do have empathy for those who are in this situation, yet often times it stops at the initial embarkation and/or how they handle the situation.

 

We pay so much money to NOT know during these times, what may or may not happen in terms of C-19 (or other dis-eases) and all the previous history posted about what happens aboard and at off-loading the next port is information not to be taken lightly, especially if taking a TA or UK or European sailing.

 

I, for one, cannot be so cavalier to dismiss the potential challenges and situations surrounding traveling at this time. And I do choose to travel, albeit with caution and I trust with enough to continue to be healthy and safe until I Am home for months from the sailings.

 

In health and bon voyage

Just one or 2 points in response

No one has asked for sympathy who is in this situation. Most wanted to highlight the issues others might face if they follow the same path. This might help them in their advance research and to plan appropriately.

I dont think anyone can be accused of doing no research, we all do what we can.....but who to believe?? The cruiselines healthy at sea presentations about fully vaccinated all tested ships keeping you safe, or the emerging evidence from fellow cruisers telling us the reality of what is happening on the ground. Also very little in terms of specifics about what will happen to those unlucky enough to be quaratined. All this against the background of no follow up to establish the ACTUAL levels of Covid on a sailing, just the fantasy of reported cases on board. How can accurate research be done with this backdrop. 

Good luck with your sailing. I hope you stay healthy. Clearly you are super informed and sound like you can take care of yourself, however I hope these posts might have prompted some additional aspects cruisers might might want to think round and consider some back up plan options.

By the way have a look at how Viking is treating their quarantined guests!!

 

It is US policy on travel which is causing much of the distress. I hope it changes soon to ease travel stress as it has in the UK and much of Europe. 

[Tony UK]

Most people will not test negative for 10 days after their first positive test. 

 

We really need to get over the hysteria around all this stuff. Omicron is all around us. Much more transmissable  than previous versions. However it is not causing the level of deaths in the vaccinated particularly, nor the level of hospital admissions.

Any busy environment carries the risk of contracting something...norovirus, colds, flu, etc. etc. We can only do our best to protect ourselves.

We need to understand that people are infectious with covid for around 3 days before they would test positive with an antigen test. They may not have any symptoms. Symptoms they do have might be like a common cold. None of the measures in place can protect us fully. They are in place to encourage us to travel, work and get our economies running. Those who would be at greater risk need to consider their own strategy and decide whether this type of travel is for them right now.

I will be cautious in the period before travel, I'll wear my mask on the flights and in busy airports. I won't knowingly transmit anything to anyone, and I'd take my own tests on board. I'd also do shorter cruises to give me a better chance of going home...10 day incubation period before positive tests generally. speaking.

Another thing to bear in mind is that in general europeans are much more relaxed now, and you are unlikely to see much mask wearing or social distancing. You might want to take that into account also when assessing your risks.

Hoping these comments are helpful in your considerations. Best to know the current facts rather than historical information.

 

Also thanks to all those who are supporting Banana!!. I do think some should temper their comments remembering she is ill as her husband has been and they are in an ongoing stressful situation. I know she has been incredibly hurt by some of the stating the obvious, thoughtless and condescending posts on here. Try to put yourself in her shoes and be kind!

[whoshwhosh]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:13 AM, Jim_Iain said:

 

All good advise Bo.  

 

Curious if you could either send me privately or on this thread what type of insurance you have.   There are so many options out there and so many that have covid limitations. 

 

It would also be good for others to understand the changing policies of Celebrity and how the Certificate of Recovery (COR) can help minimize the impact or extended Positive Results. 

 

Out of an abundance of caution as we do not fly home for another 5 days (pre-planned) I applied and received a COR yesterday.  

Jim

What company did you use for the COR?  I tested positive may 13 on the Silhouette. I am isolating in a hotel by Heathrow airport and want to get a COR as soon as possible to return to the US. Looking for a company with a 5 day wait since covid tested positive on ship. Feel fine, no symptoms.

Thanks for any help you can offer. Celebrity has provided NO support.

[Bo1953]

2 hours ago, Tony UK said:

Just one or 2 points in response

No one has asked for sympathy who is in this situation. Most wanted to highlight the issues others might face if they follow the same path. This might help them in their advance research and to plan appropriately.

I dont think anyone can be accused of doing no research, we all do what we can.....but who to believe?? The cruiselines healthy at sea presentations about fully vaccinated all tested ships keeping you safe, or the emerging evidence from fellow cruisers telling us the reality of what is happening on the ground. Also very little in terms of specifics about what will happen to those unlucky enough to be quaratined. All this against the background of no follow up to establish the ACTUAL levels of Covid on a sailing, just the fantasy of reported cases on board. How can accurate research be done with this backdrop. 

Good luck with your sailing. I hope you stay healthy. Clearly you are super informed and sound like you can take care of yourself, however I hope these posts might have prompted some additional aspects cruisers might might want to think round and consider some back up plan options.

By the way have a look at how Viking is treating their quarantined guests!!

 

It is US policy on travel which is causing much of the distress. I hope it changes soon to ease travel stress as it has in the UK and much of Europe. 

Well, while I cannot and will not dispute your take on the varied posts about conditions before, during and after contracting C-19 aboard any ship... OR for not doing ANY research, how minimal.

 

I can, categorically, say that since the Diamond Princess incident/debacle and cruises shut down for around two (2) years and having 'somewhat' of a tangent knowledge of various government policies surrounding international travel rather that be via air, boat, train etc... if that does not prompt individuals to ask a few basic 'what if' questions, then there is a real issue with understanding about what is going on.

 

Since I do not sail Viking, what they do is of no interest to me, at the moment. Their ships and policies and demographics are different than X's, truly not comparing apples to apples... in terms on policy and treatment of persons who contract C-19.

 

That points out to me that some posters needed to examine how other cruise lines treat and approach passengers who 'may' contract C-19 aboard their ships need to go sail them and not wish for something different on other lines, until they are adapted by other lines.

 

Again, why spend so much money and wanting a great trouble free vacation in these times and do nothing to be prepared just in case?

 

I sail soon and were I to contract C-19 while in the midst of the sailing, I promise you that I will not be posting about what X did or did not do to protect or support me, except if they abandoned me in the middle of the ocean or I had to jump overboard because I could not take any more (which I doubt)!!! LOL

 

IMO it does not take a lot of smarts/research/time to ask/investigate on the following:

 

1) Yes I want to go on a cruise as it has been way too long, but is it worth it?

2) I have underlying conditions which means that there could be real complications were I to contract C-19, is it really in my best interest to risk it, now?

3) What are the protocols (how easy will it be) for me to get home were I to contract C-19 while away? Will it be easy to get home or??? What are the possible additional expenses?

 

Yes, there are a few other questions to be asked, yet I believe these are the basic ones to really consider and takes almost no time to figure out even if not a member of CC...

 

Just my thoughts on this and respect other thoughts no matter how far afield I believe they are....

 

In health and bon voyage

[Ommadawn]

18 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

This "what if" scenario is not a justification for spreading COVID-19 to hundreds even thousands of others.  Countries have enacted travel restrictions to reduce the spread of COVID-19.  They have not enacted these restrictions to encumber their own citizens or other travelers.  Flaunting these rules only exacerbates the spread and deadlinness of the virus.

 

If the government were that serious about this, then they would have the same rules for overland as well as through the air travel. They allow thousands if not tens of thousands of people into the country every single day over land or by sea without a coronavirus test. I would simply be following the government's own rules in the case of an emergency, not flaunting them for no reason.

 

Yes, the virus is so deadly that many countries have no protocols whatsoever anymore. It is a bad cold for most. Get over it. I will do my best for others, but in an absolute emergency, then I will do what is best for me and mine and if you don't like it, then you can go suck an egg. I will not crawl under a rock for the rest of my life because I test positive while asymptomatic for a flu just because somebody thinks that I should. Get a grip.

[HMR74]

13 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

Well, while I cannot and will not dispute your take on the varied posts about conditions before, during and after contracting C-19 aboard any ship... OR for not doing ANY research, how minimal.

 

I can, categorically, say that since the Diamond Princess incident/debacle and cruises shut down for around two (2) years and having 'somewhat' of a tangent knowledge of various government policies surrounding international travel rather that be via air, boat, train etc... if that does not prompt individuals to ask a few basic 'what if' questions, then there is a real issue with understanding about what is going on.

 

Since I do not sail Viking, what they do is of no interest to me, at the moment. Their ships and policies and demographics are different than X's, truly not comparing apples to apples... in terms on policy and treatment of persons who contract C-19.

 

That points out to me that some posters needed to examine how other cruise lines treat and approach passengers who 'may' contract C-19 aboard their ships need to go sail them and not wish for something different on other lines, until they are adapted by other lines.

 

Again, why spend so much money and wanting a great trouble free vacation in these times and do nothing to be prepared just in case?

 

I sail soon and were I to contract C-19 while in the midst of the sailing, I promise you that I will not be posting about what X did or did not do to protect or support me, except if they abandoned me in the middle of the ocean or I had to jump overboard because I could not take any more (which I doubt)!!! LOL

 

IMO it does not take a lot of smarts/research/time to ask/investigate on the following:

 

1) Yes I want to go on a cruise as it has been way too long, but is it worth it?

2) I have underlying conditions which means that there could be real complications were I to contract C-19, is it really in my best interest to risk it, now?

3) What are the protocols (how easy will it be) for me to get home were I to contract C-19 while away? Will it be easy to get home or??? What are the possible additional expenses?

 

Yes, there are a few other questions to be asked, yet I believe these are the basic ones to really consider and takes almost no time to figure out even if not a member of CC...

 

Just my thoughts on this and respect other thoughts no matter how far afield I believe they are....

 

In health and bon voyage

Bo,

 

add to this equation that since we all have different thresholds of what we consider to be risk we do or do  not want to take, the permuations of this decision making tree are astounding. That also takes into account changing conditions, and various  lets say outcome  routes should one contract the virus on board, or  while on a post cruise trip (thats the alternative planning). And then there is the issue of whether one is close to the quality health care thats necessary.

 

So we cancelled our April TA in December (we admittedly had low risk appetite) and that was  transferred to next years TA and more to "make up" for what has been missed, however, now I am getting concerned whether we will be in the clear for that. We ain't getting younger and with that we become at higher risk for everything.

 

It is a conundrum.

 

We have a Thanksgiving family cruise '22 planned (transferred the 21 to 22)  with Grandkids and one by one they are testng positive covid 2 days apart as well as their  parents. I am begining to think we will be canning this cruise too.  Nobody want to even discuss it. 

 

Now, here are some "kickers" I believed not discussed in this thread.

 

Of course, and I have not seen this mentioned, but I think most everybody has been vaccinated at least 3x. So perhaps the vaccines should at least be questioned and I say this now because today a clinical test was disclosed on kids 19 and younger. The test was jointly overseen and reviewd by CDC and AMA, published in current edition of JAMA.

 

The key takeaway was for kids 19 and under, the effficacy dropped to 20% in 3 months, zero at 5 months and after 5 months the report actually said negative efficacy, where the vaccinated have more liklihood of contracting covid than the non vaxxed. Blew my mind so I dropped that in my kids laps like a hot potato. Whatever they decide, I will go with.

 

Its getting too confusing and risky at least  for me. Certainly even catcing a mild case wrecks ones next 10 days.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bo1953]

4 hours ago, HMR74 said:

Bo,

 

add to this equation that since we all have different thresholds of what we consider to be risk we do or do  not want to take, the permuations of this decision making tree are astounding. That also takes into account changing conditions, and various  lets say outcome  routes should one contract the virus on board, or  while on a post cruise trip (thats the alternative planning). And then there is the issue of whether one is close to the quality health care thats necessary.

 

So we cancelled our April TA in December (we admittedly had low risk appetite) and that was  transferred to next years TA and more to "make up" for what has been missed, however, now I am getting concerned whether we will be in the clear for that. We ain't getting younger and with that we become at higher risk for everything.

 

It is a conundrum.

 

We have a Thanksgiving family cruise '22 planned (transferred the 21 to 22)  with Grandkids and one by one they are testng positive covid 2 days apart as well as their  parents. I am begining to think we will be canning this cruise too.  Nobody want to even discuss it. 

 

Now, here are some "kickers" I believed not discussed in this thread.

 

Of course, and I have not seen this mentioned, but I think most everybody has been vaccinated at least 3x. So perhaps the vaccines should at least be questioned and I say this now because today a clinical test was disclosed on kids 19 and younger. The test was jointly overseen and reviewd by CDC and AMA, published in current edition of JAMA.

 

The key takeaway was for kids 19 and under, the effficacy dropped to 20% in 3 months, zero at 5 months and after 5 months the report actually said negative efficacy, where the vaccinated have more liklihood of contracting covid than the non vaxxed. Blew my mind so I dropped that in my kids laps like a hot potato. Whatever they decide, I will go with.

 

Its getting too confusing and risky at least  for me. Certainly even catcing a mild case wrecks ones next 10 days.

hmr - I believe one (1) major item which many of us are not taking into consideration, C-19 like most other viruses mutate and change constantly...

 

Many of us think of C-19 as a single variation and that is dangerous thinking IMO, just because we have updated vaccinations, they are for the current 'known' variations. As such the need for updated shots and the like... similar to the pneumonia and influenza vaccinations which are updated every year along with many others which are not so common or thought about.

 

We were to travel over the next week or so with 14 others on an X sailing, everyone else cancelled due to C-19 and I supported their decisions because of serious health conditions they have now. Very smart decision(s) IMO

 

I think, in the long run, you have made a great decision to cancel your sailings because of the potential downside.

 

I laud you for taking into consideration what the downside(s) are and making decisions based on those factors.

 

You have read, researched, listened, understood and made decisions accordingly and choose not to wait until aboard to say 'What the heck did I get myself into? This is not what I wanted to sign up for.'

 

If we contract C-19 on the upcoming sailing, I can guarantee you that I will 'possibly' sailing alone in 2024...LOL

 

I will continue to monitor and watch the situation and make a decision by July of 2023 if we sail again. There is a group of 18 who want to take a Med sailing with a few extended tours before and after the sailing, but I can categorically say if this health situation is not greatly improved by then, we will not risk it.

 

In health and bon voyage

[HMR74]

49 minutes ago, Bo1953 said:

hmr - I believe one (1) major item which many of us are not taking into consideration, C-19 like most other viruses mutate and change constantly...

 

Many of us think of C-19 as a single variation and that is dangerous thinking IMO, just because we have updated vaccinations, they are for the current 'known' variations. As such the need for updated shots and the like... similar to the pneumonia and influenza vaccinations which are updated every year along with many others which are not so common or thought about.

 

We were to travel over the next week or so with 14 others on an X sailing, everyone else cancelled due to C-19 and I supported their decisions because of serious health conditions they have now. Very smart decision(s) IMO

 

I think, in the long run, you have made a great decision to cancel your sailings because of the potential downside.

 

I laud you for taking into consideration what the downside(s) are and making decisions based on those factors.

 

You have read, researched, listened, understood and made decisions accordingly and choose not to wait until aboard to say 'What the heck did I get myself into? This is not what I wanted to sign up for.'

 

If we contract C-19 on the upcoming sailing, I can guarantee you that I will 'possibly' sailing alone in 2024...LOL

 

I will continue to monitor and watch the situation and make a decision by July of 2023 if we sail again. There is a group of 18 who want to take a Med sailing with a few extended tours before and after the sailing, but I can categorically say if this health situation is not greatly improved by then, we will not risk it.

 

In health and bon voyage

Totally agree.

its the permutation issue of once you get the virus, or one of the mutants, it can trigger the myriad of problems we cannot even think of.

 

it comes down to personal decision. However, that decision on any issue, in order to be good, is based on how much you know about the situation. Or as a mentor once told me, if you understand the downside and can deal with, do it and let the upside take care of itself.