How to use the Butler...Please share tips/advice/knowledge/experience

[Canuckdoc]

Why do you assume that I am looking down on anyone? Why would I look down on someone who is doing their job? This has nothing to do with nationality- it has to do with basic civility. And I don't see what tipping has to do with it.

 

And as far as them being your friends- perhaps we do have different ideas about what friends are. I don't pay people to be my friends. And it is not my friend's job to provide services for me. And as much as it may surprise you- your butler is being paid for these things. And is also being paid to be nice to you- whether he likes you or loathes you. He does not have an option. That is part of his training- to be charming to all of us, whatever his mood, whatever his feelings. He would not last long if he was feeling mopy one day and just didn't feel like it so never turned up. Friends have that option. By its very nature it is a very different relationship.

 

I think that 5Waldos makes a brilliant point here...and I can speak from some experience.

 

Earlier in our travels, my wife was certainly guilty of projecting her own issues and mindset onto the room antendant. Not willing to admit to herself that she had a personal attendant, and not wanting the RA to feel like a "servant", she went out of her way to be-friend the RA. She was so successful that she changed the dynamic - like 5Waldo says - a friend doesn't make your bed and shine your shoes....

 

When my wife realized that we weren't getting the level of service as we were witnessing from others, I told her that she traded in her room attendant for a friend.

There is a big difference between being friendly and having a friend.

 

I think that most people adopt the "they are our friends" mentality as a form of rationalization, so that they can sleep at night comforted by the idea that their pillow was fluffed by 'their friend' and not their 'servant' - which is a discomforting thought for some.

But this is just pure coping via rationalization, because the truth is that if it truly was your friend, there would not be any pillow fluffinng.

 

5Waldo - you are going to get challenged on your statements (and me as well probably) - but I just wanted to say that I have total respect for anyone who can be totally honest with himself...something that I have come to realize is a true rarity -

 

Most people can rationalize and deny their way through an entire lifetime...

(ok enough pop-psychology for now)...

[UKCruiseJeff]

I think people are over salami cutting drron29's post.

 

He/she was using the term friend as I saw it in a wider context than is justified by some of the replies. Real friends or work friends can all equally be pains. Many people working for me and that I worked for became friends and that never got in the way of me telling others what I want and expected from them and what others wanted and expected from me. The danger is if you cannot do that because you lack experience or assertiveness.

 

drron29 was simply using a different phrase for what I think all comes roughly to the same thing for many and that is acting in a really friendly way and "befriending" the people that work with us and for us whether on a temporary or permanent basis. Obviously if people are unable to manage that type of relationship then they should rightly steer clear of it.

 

It works well for some and but can be a disaster for others.

[wripro]

Friendship, friendship

Just a perfect blendship

When other friendships

Have been forgot

Ours will still be hot!!!!!

 

Can anyone say that about their butler on SS?

[UKCruiseJeff]

Friendship, friendship

Just a perfect blendship

When other friendships

Have been forgot

Ours will still be hot!!!!!

 

Can anyone say that about their butler on SS?

 

As we're doing poems I quite like Mark Twain:

 

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

 

:p

[5waldos]

I think people are over salami cutting drron29's post.

 

I rather thought so until it was explained to me that American's were brought up to look down on people, whilst Aussie's weren't. Sorry but that did rather tick me off.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I rather thought so until it was explained to me that American's were brought up to look down on people, whilst Aussie's weren't. Sorry but that did rather tick me off.

 

I think your reaction is perfectly understandable if that is how you read it.

 

Personally I read it that Australia is a more egalitarianism society than others and I think I agree with that.

[Travelcat2]

Absolutely not.Our differences are our upbringings.Americans are brought up to tip.Australians are not.Same with our attitudes to people.Basically the only people Australians look down on are the filthy rich.

 

Interesting post..... but, I am curious as to why Australians look down on the "filthy rich"? When I think of people in that category, I think of people like Bill Gates who gives millions of dollars away to good causes.

 

In any case, do agree that Americans are brought up to tip and Australians (and British) are not. Hopefully, when in a country or environment that is different from what we are used to, we follow their customs. For instance, on Regent, tipping is included in our fare and is not expected. There are still people who, IMO, need to show off and tip.

 

Having a butler on the ship is not really a big deal. They can do as much or as little as you require. This is their job and they generally enjoy being able to serve their customers. We like to learn about the area our butler is from, his family, etc. Making their work environment pleasant is not going to make them stop doing their job (unless they were inclined to be that way in the first place).

[drron29]

I rather thought so until it was explained to me that American's were brought up to look down on people, whilst Aussie's weren't. Sorry but that did rather tick me off.

 

Sorry if that is what you took it to mean.

 

UKCruiseJeff seems to have taken it the way I meant.

"I think your reaction is perfectly understandable if that is how you read it."

 

Personally I read it that Australia is a more egalitarianism society than others and I think I agree with that. "

On the other hand I could have taken your first 2 posts in reply to mine as a personal attack but I do realise we are all different.Our culture and upbringing can never be identical so there are a multitude of ways to look at any situation.

 

Travelcat2 recognises this-

"Interesting post..... but, I am curious as to why Australians look down on the "filthy rich"? When I think of people in that category, I think of people like Bill Gates who gives millions of dollars away to good causes.

 

In any case, do agree that Americans are brought up to tip and Australians (and British) are not. Hopefully, when in a country or environment that is different from what we are used to, we follow their customs. For instance, on Regent, tipping is included in our fare and is not expected. There are still people who, IMO, need to show off and tip.

 

Having a butler on the ship is not really a big deal. They can do as much or as little as you require. This is their job and they generally enjoy being able to serve their customers. We like to learn about the area our butler is from, his family, etc. Making their work environment pleasant is not going to make them stop doing their job (unless they were inclined to be that way in the first place)."

 

Travelcat there is a well recognised concept in Australia called the Tall Poppy syndrome where we like to cut people down to size.Just thinking and I cant think off hand anyone in the top 10 rich list in Australia who is not openly criticised.

[Emtbsam]

Just curious since everyone is concentrating on the butlers. Does anyone have the same feelings about the stewardesses?

[rbslos18]

"Travelcat2 recognises this-

"Interesting post..... but, I am curious as to why Australians look down on the "filthy rich"? When I think of people in that category, I think of people like Bill Gates who gives millions of dollars away..".

 

Regarding the "filthy rich"

Actually Bill Gates has given away 28 billion dollars and is working to eradicate polio globally.

 

Warren Buffett has pledged to give away 99% of his 50 billion dollars to charity. 83% will go to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. That 41 billion dollar gift will be the largest charitable gift in human history. We should all be so charitable!

[UKCruiseJeff]

Just to correct a couple of incorrect notions that have been repeated.

 

The British have most certainly been brought up to tip. However a major change in UK service has been the automatic addition of service charges within a generation. This has adjusted British tipping habits not a lack of tipping ethos when being "brought up".

 

Secondly it is rather silly to call everyone that tips as "showing off" simply because a service charge has already been added. It would be just as silly if an Australian called everyone that didn't "stingey ********". :)

 

Finally, a major difference in my perception of the way that Australians treat people they meet copmpared to others is the general and genuine complete lack of interest in what they have but a very keen interest in who they are and whether they are "befriendable" eg "whether they are up your own ar&es" or whther they are someone they would like to spend time with.

 

This process is almost instant on first meeting. Australians have a tendency to work out whether they like you or not pretty much straight away. They'll rib you and take the pi*s and if you respond in kind and laugh with them then "you are one of them". It is an instant befriending process that has the effect of making complete strangers feel like they have instant friends. This is an important part of Australian culture generally against other nationals under discussion who can be generally more reserved with strangers and be more interested in their profession or trade for example.

 

This also explains to a degree how rich people are treated by ordinary Australians if they show signs of wanting to be treated as though they were rich people.

 

This is what I took drron29 to have meant.

 

(ps drron29 .... my second cousin Zelman died a couple of years back at a grand old age of 92 ... he had a decent job in Oz from '77 to '82 ... you may remember his name ;) )

[drron29]

And I did meet him.A gentleman.

[UKCruiseJeff]

And I did meet him.A gentleman.

 

 

Lovely to hear .... I have met many people who had fond stories of him. Thanks. :)

[turtlemichael]

Lovely to hear .... I have met many people who had fond stories of him. Thanks. :)

 

Totally off topic but he was Dean of my Law School in my first year. He had one of the great minds and was an immensely important 20th century man in Australia.

[UKCruiseJeff]

Totally off topic but he was Dean of my Law School in my first year. He had one of the great minds and was an immensely important 20th century man in Australia.

 

 

How lovely.

 

I know I'll get slated for going off topic, but you may be interested in hearing how I became aware of his job. It's amusing. :)

 

In the 70's my wife and I were actively considering jumping ship to Oz. My great aunt kept a weekly or so letter exchange with Zelman keeping him in touch with his family in the UK. She told him about our plans to go to Oz but she was unaware of exactly what job he had and therefore didn't tell us. She simply said he was "doing really well" and had a really good job in Oz and lived in a big house.

 

The suggestion we go and stay with him became more persistant and eventually she showed me a letter from him (I hadn't met him at that stage - he was just a relative living on the other side of the world) which of course had Governor House on the top. She kept saying "Cousin Zelman wants to know when you're coming - he has a spare room and will put you up". It dawned on me who he was. I tried to explain it to my great aunt. She was clueless. In the end - exasperated and frustrated I said "Zelman is the Queen!". She looked at me out of the side of her eyes as though I was completely bonkers and said "Don't be silly Jeffrey (she always called me "Jeffrey" when I was being told off) - the Queen wears a frock and has a handbag and Zelman is a man!" I could never get over to her what exactly he did and she always thought I'd "gone over the edge".

 

Zelman offered to act as sponsor for me and to smooth our way if we made the move and to put me up in Governor House. I guess I might have had a good start in Oz with such an address and well loved sponsor. They wouldn't have believed me at Oz immigration though without a letter ...

 

Now. on our visits, we stay on Circular Quay and on the ferry from Circular Quay to Manly we look at the Sydney residence and wonder what it may have been like if our kids had played on the lawn ......

 

Hope the OT post isn't pulverised and hope you enjoy the snippet of a truly wonderful man who I gather played an interesting role in Oz history ......:)

[newlondon]

Actually all, I find this post very interesting from a human relations point of view. At the risk of being attacked as UKcruiseJeff did last time I responded to him; and as well, let's decide what egalitarian means.

To me a society that is so obsessed with not worrying about other people's feelings because their own opinions are all that matter is not egalitarian. It is selfish. We have many Aussie friends and in fact on our last visit to Sydney had one of the nicest visits one can imagine and hope our hosts will visit us on their next trip to the states. The point here is that both couples were solicitous of the other; trying to relate to points of view and not national obsessions. If one doesn't care; then there is the problem of why have a friend in the first place, "you" are number one because other peoples feelings don't matter.

Is that egalitarian? If so I'ld rather support the old British system of "noblesse oblige".

BTW I've got my bullet proof vest on:)

[wripro]

I can just imagine all the butlers on SS reading this thread and having a good laugh at the various opinions of their job. Why does a butler merit more extensive examination than any other crew member on a ship?

[dusababy]

I can just imagine all the butlers on SS reading this thread and having a good laugh at the various opinions of their job. Why does a butler merit more extensive examination than any other crew member on a ship?

 

Because they handle your undies (if you allow them to do so....):p

[Canuckdoc]

I think people are over salami cutting drron29's post.

 

He/she was using the term friend as I saw it in a wider context than is justified by some of the replies. Real friends or work friends can all equally be pains. Many people working for me and that I worked for became friends and that never got in the way of me telling others what I want and expected from them and what others wanted and expected from me. The danger is if you cannot do that because you lack experience or assertiveness.

 

drron29 was simply using a different phrase for what I think all comes roughly to the same thing for many and that is acting in a really friendly way and "befriending" the people that work with us and for us whether on a temporary or permanent basis. Obviously if people are unable to manage that type of relationship then they should rightly steer clear of it.

 

It works well for some and but can be a disaster for others.

 

As we're doing poems I quite like Mark Twain:

 

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

 

:p

 

 

Excellent points/posts -- Both of them...

 

I totally see your point, and In my professional world I can recognize similar relationships...staff with whom I am very friendly - but wouldn't consider 'friends' - I agree, I think we are over salami cutting over semantics...

 

I think we can all be friends...

 

(By the way...I hope that I correctly used the term 'Salami cutting' -- I had never seen/heard that expression before - but it has quickly become my favorite - and will become a regular part of my vernacular from this point on...):)

[UKCruiseJeff]

Excellent points/posts -- Both of them...

 

I totally see your point, and In my professional world I can recognize similar relationships...staff with whom I am very friendly - but wouldn't consider 'friends' - I agree, I think we are over salami cutting over semantics...

 

I think we can all be friends...

 

(By the way...I hope that I correctly used the term 'Salami cutting' -- I had never seen/heard that expression before - but it has quickly become my favorite - and will become a regular part of my vernacular from this point on...):)

 

Thanks.

 

I've thought a bit about the different ideas expressed, and I wonder whether some of the different sensitivities stems from the different routes by which the butler profession evolved.

 

In the UK butlers have always been a profession, largely confined to "big houses". The role was filled by free people who were free to move to better jobs and were value and respected by their employers. The large houses were also communities where the owner considers it a matter of honour to respect and look after and retain staff. Whilst he wouldn't see a butler as a social equal he would treat him respectfully.

 

If I understand it correctly, in the US the concept of a butler originated from the UK, but the position in the early days would have been filled by slaves? This precluded free movement of many of the early butlers and their treatment would be different? And perhaps American sensitivities might be different with that heritage? Have I got the history correct?

 

If that were so, I wonder how these two different routes would effect how differently British would feel about butlers compared to Americans?

[Mr Luxury]

I can just imagine all the butlers on SS reading this thread and having a good laugh at the various opinions of their job. Why does a butler merit more extensive examination than any other crew member on a ship?

 

Henry,

Because people do not know how to use a Butlers services, so they do not utilise them properly.

[5waldos]

Henry,

Because people do not know how to use a Butlers services, so they do not utilise them properly.

 

What does around comes around. That, of course, is the original purpose of this thread.

[TLCOhio]

Henry, Because people do not know how to use a Butlers services, so they do not utilise them properly.

 

Agree that there is some confusion on what these butler can and should do.

 

On our Silversea cruise July 2010 along the Norway coast, we did not know what to expect from their Butler concept provided to all rooms. Hype or real? Was the Butler idea as more of just a marketing gimmick?

 

Both for us and the other couple/friends traveling with us, we were pleasantly surprised and well pleased with the "reality". Initially, it was a she or Butleress. She was great and our friends there love her and how she operated and helped. Our Butler (after moved with a room technical problem) was Parai Dubhaski from India. He was also super, very knowledgeable and helpful. He had worked previously with Silversea as a waiter in the dining room before doing his training for this position. Their service, spirit and style was super excellent!!! My wife liked coffee around 4 pm and it was there in the room every day after she made one passing mention.

 

For services or needs, you could just dial the phone to page our Butler and then he or she would call right back. The Hotel Director told us the "secret" or idea with the Butler service is to have a "central point of contact" to coordinate and supervise things in order to improve satisfying customer needs and interests. Our Butler had 15 rooms under his responsibility. My verdict is that it was really a “value added”. With the Butler and most all of the staff, there was a great attitude. It was not just a fake smile and only a “HI!”. They work hard being helpful and knowledgeable. Impressive!!! We didn't have the Butler unpack or pack our suitcases. Nor, did we abuse the service by asking for too much or minor things.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

For details and visuals, etc., from our July 1-16, 2010, Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise experience from Copenhagen on the Silver Cloud, check out this posting. This posting is now at 106,452 views.

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

 

 

Here is our Butler, Parai (second from left), and four of his associates on the back of the Silver Cloud as we were sailing out from the spectacular fjords and doing the Flam rail trip during our July 2010 cruise.: :

 

[wripro]

Dusababy,

 

I'm more concerned with those who handle my food than my undies!

[Travelcat2]

My DH was raised in the U.K. and was brought up not to tip except for exceptional service (above and beyond the normal scope of the job). I was raised in the U.S. and am the one in the family who does the tipping. With one exception, if I feel the need to tip on a luxury cruise line, I donate to the crew fund which benefits all the crew -- not only a specific individual. After all, your butler could not arrive at your door with dinner if someone had not prepared it and others who will clean up the linens and dishes when you are finished. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that go unrecognized.

 

I agree that butler expectations would be completely different for those of us from the U.S. I cannot imagine even 1/2 % of people in this country having a butler on their payroll (although they may be hired for events). IMO, it is understandable that there would be questions as to how a butler on a cruise ship would be best utilized. Whether you want to be friendly with your butler, or not....... as long as you are respectful, it should not be a problem.