Should One Cruise to Greece During the Financial Crisis?

[Host Mick]

Some of the parochial comments on this thread make me shake my head. I feel very sorry for the people of Greece going through this. I'm going to Greece later this month on Azamara and then again on Constellation in September. I will be very happy to go there and support the local economy, albeit in a very small way.

 

Phil

 

Why do you feel sorry for them? This is self-inflicted. They've voted against austerity and plans to pay back their debt several times. Last year, they elected a PM, Tsipris who ran on a platform of defaulting on their debt obligations.

They borrowed money that they refuse to pay back. This is the inevitable end game.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Host Mick

[rebeccalouiseagain]

I think people should go to Greece and spend cash that the locals can keep. We all know that governments are often not the voice of the people. Even though they should be.

[CathyCruises]

Why do you feel sorry for them? This is self-inflicted. They've voted against austerity and plans to pay back their debt several times.

They borrowed money that they refuse to pay back. This is the inevitable end game.

 

I feel sorry for the Greek people, who are suffering from their poorly managed government. Obviously this is a long time in the making, and it will take a long time to recover. But just as in America, the average citizen has zero control over the decisions their government makes.

[neverbeenhere]

spend cash that the locals can keep.

 

Believe that is a large percentage of the problem.

[Host Mick]

I feel sorry for the Greek people, who are suffering from their poorly managed government. Obviously this is a long time in the making, and it will take a long time to recover. But just as in America, the average citizen has zero control over the decisions their government makes.

Yesterday, the Greek people rejected a referendum 39-61 that would have imposed some fiscal sanity. The people rejected it.

[CathyCruises]

Yesterday, the Greek people rejected a referendum 39-61 that would have imposed some fiscal sanity. The people rejected it.

 

I don't know the details, but I believe that the further austerity measures, on top of what they've been living under for the past several years, were pretty draconian. And again, the people were not the ones that got themselves into this trouble, it was bad governance and lack of fiscal responsibility. I don't think you can blame the entire populace for the actions of their 'leaders'.

[Pushka]

Greece ramped up its expenditure on social welfare to 90% of its GDP. On borrowed money. Little industry and no fat in the budget to make interest payments let alone pay off the debt. It is a welfare state funded by other people's money. The people allowed that to happen by voting in the Govts that supported that policy and voting out Govts that tried to do something to control it.

[4774Papa]

The very generous social service packages in Greece were never sustainable given increased longevity and rising unemployment. There is little industry other than tourism. No Government was prepared to tackle the issue because the people didnt want it. Did they bring it on themselves?

 

We have a large population of expat Greeks in Australia. Melbourne has the largest expat Greek community in the world except for Athens.

The unsustainable spending is a serious problem for many countries in the World, including the USA. Also, we have some states that have the "Greek" problem.

[Wine-O]

Greece ramped up its expenditure on social welfare to 90% of its GDP. On borrowed money. Little industry and no fat in the budget to make interest payments let alone pay off the debt. It is a welfare state funded by other people's money. The people allowed that to happen by voting in the Govts that supported that policy and voting out Govts that tried to do something to control it.

 

Yeah, they are finally finding out that they are running out of other people's money. :eek: :D:D

 

Govts are still in power because everyone is voting for free stuff and Santa Claus. :rolleyes:

[hughdm]

They have an 89% tax evasion rate. Really. Look it up!

[tgmtgm]

Why do you feel sorry for them? This is self-inflicted. They've voted against austerity and plans to pay back their debt several times. Last year, they elected a PM, Tsipris who ran on a platform of defaulting on their debt obligations.

They borrowed money that they refuse to pay back. This is the inevitable end game.

 

 

That's exactly it in a nutshell. As you sow, so shall you reap. No pity on my part for deadbeats.

 

Tony

[HokiePoq]

I feel sorry for the Greek people, who are suffering from their poorly managed government. Obviously this is a long time in the making, and it will take a long time to recover. But just as in America, the average citizen has zero control over the decisions their government makes.

 

This is true and there have been austerity measures in place for several years. The people are paying the price for mismanagement. I imagine the same type of vote would take place here if people were forced to give up half their salaries or pensions. (I posted earlier about our guide in Crete having to ship food to Athens each week for her highly educated daughter who had taken a huge pay cut as a govt. worker and did not have enough $$ to buy food...this was four years ago.)

[TLCOhio]

We have a cruise booked next year that visits three stops in Greece. Just bring U.S. dollars. If you have private tours booked, ask what currency they would like. If you have Celebrity tours booked, it doesn't matter.

 

CathyCruises: I feel sorry for the Greek people' date=' who are suffering from their poorly managed government. Obviously this is a long time in the making, and it will take a long time to recover. But just as in America, the [b']average citizen has zero control over the decisions[/b] their government makes.

 

4774Papa: I read on a business website that one out of two dollars in the Greek economy escapes taxes. Half of the economy is in the underground. What created that? The Greeks would have to fix that. Several countries have huge underground economies and most are economic basket cases' date=' like Venezuela, Argentina, Russia (only oil keep it afloat). Why should German taxpayers keep supporting the corrupt Greek collapse? [/quote']

 

Appreciate the important original question and a wide variety of comments, opinions, news/fact elements, etc. As noted at the top, if you are on a cruise ship with a company such as Celebrity, they will stay on top of these fast-changing situations and be prepared to adjust schedules as needed, if and if. No major cruise line would want to put customers into a bad or unsafe port situation. It is a good time to have tours through the cruise line as they are "on the hook" to make it work, handle the currency challenges, etc.

 

While, like CathyCruises, I do feel symphony for the Greek people, BUT, my view is that . . . ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES!!! While we would all like to have no austerity and more money given to us (free?), that is not how it works in the "real world". The 2004 Athens Olympics ended up being an "expensive party" and now the bills have come due for their new airport, fancy highways and subway upgrades, many large new sports stadiums, etc. As a country of only ten million people, they could not afford these costly upgrades, plus other challenges for not collecting taxes, a bloated government payroll, etc., etc. There are lots of factors involved, going both ways.

 

It was, however, the votes in elections by people in these countries (including ours) that put leaders into power and allowed such actions . . . and the results!!! Very sad, but it is going to get worse in Greece before it gets better.

 

Good luck to all traveling there, plus, for the Greek people.

 

For Athens, Greece, check out this posting with many ideas, tips and exciting visuals for our visiting there and nearby. There have been over 11,056 views on this posting. Go to:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1101008

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Did a June 7-19, 2011, cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Dozens of nice visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc. We are now at 201,430 views for this live/blog re-cap, including much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[keesar]

The 2004 Athens Olympics went nearly $15 billion over its initial $1.6 billion budget, according to economist and professor Andrew Zimbalist, who wrote a book on the true cost of hosting large sporting events.

 

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/abandoned-athens-olympics-venues-2014-8#ixzz3fAObA3hw

 

This is one interesting article about Greece. The pictures are really telling.

[Evangaline]

I have confidence that Celebrity, berthing frequently in Greece is watching the situation and will cancel ports if the situation becomes dangerous or even uncomfortable for their passengers.

Bon Voyage.

 

I am hoping they don't just cancel the ports if the need arises, but rather change them. There are 4 Greek ports in our itinerary. We are not traveling that far to just bob about at sea.

[peteukmcr]

Talk about 'I'm alright Jack'. The sanctimonious attitude on here is deafening. OK, the situation may have been self inflicted, but all your comments showing no sympathy or pity still does not answer the original question 'Should One Cruise to Greece?' .

 

Obviously there are many of you who are sitting pretty from the security of your own financial situation and are happy for others to suffer so you can feel superior. Carry on, but as I keep saying, I'll cruise to Greece if allowed and will try and do what little I can to help the local economy.

[minz56]

Talk about 'I'm alright Jack'. The sanctimonious attitude on here is deafening. OK, the situation may have been self inflicted, but all your comments showing no sympathy or pity still does not answer the original question 'Should One Cruise to Greece?' .

 

Obviously there are many of you who are sitting pretty from the security of your own financial situation and are happy for others to suffer so you can feel superior. Carry on, but as I keep saying, I'll cruise to Greece if allowed and will try and do what little I can to help the local economy.

 

Totally agree....

[pspercy]

Talk about 'I'm alright Jack'. The sanctimonious attitude on here is deafening. OK, the situation may have been self inflicted, but all your comments showing no sympathy or pity still does not answer the original question 'Should One Cruise to Greece?' .

 

Obviously there are many of you who are sitting pretty from the security of your own financial situation and are happy for others to suffer so you can feel superior. Carry on, but as I keep saying, I'll cruise to Greece if allowed and will try and do what little I can to help the local economy.

 

Agreed.

 

I've seen it reported that the early pensions so often cited etc were only for public sector employees, the average worker gets little in the way of pensions and so on.

 

Facts are that Greece should never have been admitted in the first place, they got Goldman Sachs to pretty up their numbers and Brussels accepted with a wink - all to further the EU "Project".

 

Personally, anything that damages the EU and its poorly thought out political currency has my vote:D

 

“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.” Mikhail Gorbachev:eek:

[pspercy]

Why do you feel sorry for them? This is self-inflicted. They've voted against austerity and plans to pay back their debt several times. Last year, they elected a PM, Tsipris who ran on a platform of defaulting on their debt obligations.

They borrowed money that they refuse to pay back. This is the inevitable end game.

 

 

So, a CC "Host" is taking sides rather than acting as a Moderator ?

[peteukmcr]

So, a CC "Host" is taking sides rather than acting as a Moderator ?

 

 

Wondered that too.

[excitedofharpenden]

Why do you feel sorry for them? This is self-inflicted. They've voted against austerity and plans to pay back their debt several times. Last year, they elected a PM, Tsipris who ran on a platform of defaulting on their debt obligations.

They borrowed money that they refuse to pay back. This is the inevitable end game.

You are over simplifying it. The Greek people have been let down by successive governments for years, spending more than they earned, so it's not down to the people's vote against austerity. That has just brought it to a head. Their financial state was not helped by the country's books being cooked in order to join the €. Your reply to mine is an example of the ill informed stuff on this thread. Political debate doesn't have a place on this message board, but as you replied quoting my post I do likewise.

 

Phil

[Pushka]

Talk about 'I'm alright Jack'. The sanctimonious attitude on here is deafening. OK, the situation may have been self inflicted, but all your comments showing no sympathy or pity still does not answer the original question 'Should One Cruise to Greece?' .

 

Obviously there are many of you who are sitting pretty from the security of your own financial situation and are happy for others to suffer so you can feel superior. Carry on, but as I keep saying, I'll cruise to Greece if allowed and will try and do what little I can to help the local economy.

 

 

Actually not sitting pretty at all. My super fund lost thousands of dollars due to the stock market reaction here in Australia leaving me to wonder about my own retirement plans. So I am a little peeved at the No vote to say the least.

[gordylad]

Absolutely you should still travel to Greece the country needs all the tourists they can get to get them back to stability

[DYKWIA]

They have an 89% tax evasion rate. Really. Look it up!

 

it depends how you count the beans...

 

over 2/3 of people in Greece pay tax at source - "the normal way", i.e. they cannot stop paying tax because it is automatically deducted.

 

So that leaves about 1/3 who are supposed to pay by other means. Some of these will pay what they owe, some won't. So if Greece has 89% tax evasion, like many countries it is a minority of people who are responsible for that, at most a 1/3 because everyone else pays at source. And if a minority of people are responsible for 89% tax evasion in a country then they will be a very well off minority or / and companies.

 

Greece failed to repay 1.54 billion Euros - the loss to the Australian Stock market alone was estimated at $35 billion dollars in reaction to the news. France and Germany markets lost 4% of their value. It would have been a lot cheaper to have a whip round, and wipe that debt off.

 

Back in 1953, Greece was party to the London Agreement On German External Debts which effectively wrote off a huge proportion of Germany's debt after WW2 and allowed that country to prosper from dire financial circumstances.

Edited July 7, 2015 by DYKWIA

[shot2bits]

Look, Greece is in a mess, no denying that, but that would not stop me going there. They need the currency from tourism and I suspect they will welcome visitors with open arms. Ok, be careful if you intend to carry large amounts of euros but that is the same in any part of Europe. Go there with an open mind and enjoy it.