Silhouette Trip Report (Yes, that Israel one!) October 2015 (Very Long)

[cruisemom42]

 

Some passengers on this cruise may insist that there was no real danger in Israel. None of these passengers are qualified to make such a judgement which requires professional expertise in risk analysis or threat assessments. Nor, have these passengers shown that they had access to all the information used by the cruise line in making these judgements. All they have is some meaningless strawmen arguments. Are we now to insist that passengers know more about the weather than the captain when a decision is made to avoid stormy weather?

 

 

I am curious if you think Celebrity had information that was apparently not available to other cruise lines? Holland America's Prinsendam docked in both Haifa and Ashdod just a day or two after Celebrity was supposed to have visited.

 

And if the risk was so great, why did the US not issue a travel advisory or warning specifically citing the latest events? Do they care less about the safety of travelers than Celebrity does?

 

Since there was neither an updated travel advisory nor a cancellation of calls by all ships, it seems to me that there is reason enough to question Celebrity's choice....

 

As I posted before, I am not totally surprised these ports were canceled. I have found cruising to be the most "risk averse" form of travel and have suffered my fair share of cancellations. But IMO you cannot unconditionally say that it was the only choice available to them, as another mass market line that mostly caters to US passengers made a different choice and carried on with the port calls in Israel.

Edited November 4, 2015 by cruisemom42

[DYKWIA]

... While there were rocket attacks before, during and after our trip, my aunt never advised us to cancel or postpone the trip. We had a couple of adventures hiding in bomb shelters while we were there, but never felt unsafe, .....

 

That's the idea of a good bomb shelter! You might have felt more unsafe without a bomb shelter.

 

Just trying to see where the bomb shelter is on the Deck Plan for the Silhouette

[parallax]

If you want to go to a place on your own accord, that is fine. However, a cruise line has a responsibility to all its passengers and employees. The might have been cautious but I do not blame them for making a call.

[helen haywood]

Sorry, I misspoke. We booked a deluxe ocean view veranda, and that was indicated in our cruise documents along with the room number. There was no upgrade.

 

Even the obstructed and semi-obstructed balconies are described by Celebrity as "deluxe ocean view veranda." What was the cabin number on your cruise documents?

[RocketMan275]

I am curious if you think Celebrity had information that was apparently not available to other cruise lines? Holland America's Prinsendam docked in both Haifa and Ashdod just a day or two after Celebrity was supposed to have visited.

 

And if the risk was so great, why did the US not issue a travel advisory or warning specifically citing the latest events? Do they care less about the safety of travelers than Celebrity does?

 

Since there was neither an updated travel advisory nor a cancellation of calls by all ships, it seems to me that there is reason enough to question Celebrity's choice....

 

As I posted before, I am not totally surprised these ports were canceled. I have found cruising to be the most "risk averse" form of travel and have suffered my fair share of cancellations. But IMO you cannot unconditionally say that it was the only choice available to them, as another mass market line that mostly caters to US passengers made a different choice and carried on with the port calls in Israel.

 

I said the information was not available to the passengers. Government intelligence agencies do share threat analysis information at times to travel firms and other corporations when there is a need to share. We can only speculate whether this kind of information was shared.

 

Different cruise lines can assess the information differently. Because Cruise line A makes a different decision than Cruise line B says nothing about which cruise line make the wiser decision. Risks are always probabilistic and outcome are subject to chance. Winning a gamble does not prove you made the wise decision.

 

I made two points.

 

My first point was passengers on this cruise, for the reasons I specified, are simply not qualified to make a risk analysis and threat assessment of whether it was safe to visit this port. Consequently, it is irrational for passengers to claim they know more about the risks of visiting these ports than did the cruise line.

 

My second point was that we should not set the precedent of bestowing compensation in situations where passenger safety are at issue. Do we want passengers to vote on whether seas are too high to tender or whether to avoid stormy weather?

[pjs678]

That's the idea of a good bomb shelter! You might have felt more unsafe without a bomb shelter.

 

Just trying to see where the bomb shelter is on the Deck Plan for the Silhouette

 

Different situation though. Rockets vs. knives. I don't think a bomb shelter is helping people standing at a bus stop when a knife-wielding terrorist approaches them.

[ptrpanpens]

Two years ago a friend of mine was on a Princess TA from Southhampton to FLL. Because of extremely bad winds and a storm the ship was forced to stay in port for two days and had to cancel two ports. I recall that the compensation given by Princess was 50% credit of the cruise cost toward a future cruise within the next year. Just saying....Celebrity might take notice if they are reading this thread.

[RocketMan275]

Two years ago a friend of mine was on a Princess TA from Southhampton to FLL. Because of extremely bad winds and a storm the ship was forced to stay in port for two days and had to cancel two ports. I recall that the compensation given by Princess was 50% credit of the cruise cost toward a future cruise within the next year. Just saying....Celebrity might take notice if they are reading this thread.

 

Probably because your friend booked under UK contract terms. OP choose to use a US TA to avoid the extra costs of a UK contract.

[ptrpanpens]

Probably because your friend booked under UK contract terms. OP choose to use a US TA to avoid the extra costs of a UK contract.

 

He is a US citizen and booked in the US with Princess. The credit came directly from Princess and was given to all guests onboard.He got a very nice discount on a cruise to the Baltic that next summer.:D

[CI66774]

Hi Parallax

 

Please don't take that as a sleight on Baltimore - it is another place I have been, where I felt completely safe.

 

However, I have just had another look at the statistics and more people have been killed in Baltimore this year in supposed 'safe' areas that in Israel this year. The vast majority of which have been in the West Bank and Gaza, which are nowhere near the Dead Sea, which is where I would have visited.

 

Again, nothing to do with Baltimore. I am sure the same could be said for New York or Miami, places where cruise ships feel thoroughly safe visiting.

 

Scenes on the news are like movies these days. They are filmed to suit agendas, many of them political. I was in the Ukraine earlier this year, another place I would presume cruise companies would consider unsafe - I had a great time among lovely people and felt just as safe as I would have in Israel.

 

Murder rates in the US have steadily declined in the last 30 years. Baltimore followed that trend until a few years ago and, for various reasons the murder rate has spiked. Baltimore's violent crime rate is much worse than the national average. Cherry picking a city with a much higher than average violent crime rate proves what? How many cruise paxs have been murdered in Baltimore? How much violence directed at cruise paxs or tourists in general? Now those stats might be relevant versus what you quoted.

[WpgCruise]

Two years ago a friend of mine was on a Princess TA from Southhampton to FLL. Because of extremely bad winds and a storm the ship was forced to stay in port for two days and had to cancel two ports. I recall that the compensation given by Princess was 50% credit of the cruise cost toward a future cruise within the next year. Just saying....Celebrity might take notice if they are reading this thread.

 

A few years back when there was an earthquake in Peru Princess was using the port near the epicentre as a turnaround port for S.A. cruises. The airport was closed, infrastructure was inoperative. Princess stuck to their guns on that one telling passengers enroute for their cruise to make it to the ship or forfeit as they weren't responsible. Their other options of course were to catch up the cruise at another port of call along the itinerary.

 

Sometimes Princess seems t look after their customers better, sometimes not. Just saying.

[CI66774]

Probably because your friend booked under UK contract terms. OP choose to use a US TA to avoid the extra costs of a UK contract.

 

That's right. Those "rights" people triumph come at higher costs. I prefer to have the freedom to choose between lower costs and perceived greater "rights."

[GottaKnowWhen]

That is very interesting, thank you.

 

 

 

It is very sad that US citizens consumer rights are so skewed in favour of mammoth corporations.

 

 

 

Hopefully this lack of rights do not apply to me. If they do, I will continue to use public forums to promote consumer rights and will approach my members of UK parliament and European Parliament. I am also considering beginning a website that highlights such grievances to put pressure on these vacation firms to provide their customers with a fairer deal

 

 

The New York Times currently has an interesting series on the point of the continuing loss of consumer protections for US customers. In short, we sign a contract which includes an "arbitration" clause that relegates any dispute with the corporation to a private "arbitration services" company hired by the company which screwed us in the first place. In Celebrity's case, the arbitration hearings take place in Florida at their convenience...

 

But back to the main topic, thank you for your balanced discussion of this situation. I have a friend who lives in the Tel Aviv region, we spent three weeks in Israel in 2013, we have a friend from here on an (uneventful) land tour of Israel and the occupied territories during the time period your cruise would hVe been there. And so I have been quite interested to hear the different opinions which often come to different personal values relating to the " proper" balance between personal safety and opportunities for exploration and new experiences.

[Drake+Mrs_Steel]

I think I can sum this up in a couple points:

 

1. This was a stupid decision by Celebrity. There could be a better word but I just can't find it. Narrow minded, short sighted, arbitrary, insensitive treatment to some very valuable customers. Celebrity's corporate response makes Carnival problems from a couple years ago look like genius in comparison. And that's CARNIVAL! This is management not even 101, this is management 001, the prerequisite to being the lowest person in charge. If everyone effected says your decision is wrong, listen to them. Use all the ideas you have to consider the fallout and craft a solution.

 

2. It was the way we were treated. I've cruised with Costa before and was not surprised to be treated like I was and without any rancour I won't go on Costa again. I thought Celebrity was different, but I was wrong, everybody this is what Costa treats their customers like. There, I've taught you something you won't have to learn for yourself, your welcome. Nobody in the corporation (who made this decision) did anything but have the ship crew deal with all of us who were angry about it. This is just foolish! Everything I've ever seen in corporate damage control of a bad situation was done badly. In fact it was completely opposite of what has been learned about handling these kind of situations.

a. Blame the customer.For instance why would everyone be expecting something in the way of compensation? Because we are all greedy? No most of us have enough money that a bottle of wine isn't going to change our life but its kind of what we expect.

b. We were all wrong for what we observed. Why was everyone mad about the exact same thing? This was to be a Holy Land cruise, not a tour of Italy and Greece.

 

The answer to both of these questions is no. Just like when your child does something just so awful and then continues, you just say, "I expected better from you..." In expecting better I'm not going to trust you again.

 

If I were Celebrity I'd:

1. Stop treating the most loyal customers like commodities, you'll eventually be competing with cheaper cruise lines on price and that's not good. If you want to be a first class cruise line and attract 1st class money, you can't treat customer's this way. Ignore your lawyers and listen to your salesmen.

2. Get a better Beyond the Podium speaker. I love at-sea days for these presenters, the guy they got was just dreadful. How dreadful? I could have done better, and you just don't want to open that can of worms. But then again as I don't really expect to choose Celebrity again, do what you feel like.

3. Learn to react as Carnival did when they had problems.

[compman9]

Murder rates in the US have steadily declined in the last 30 years. Baltimore followed that trend until a few years ago and, for various reasons the murder rate has spiked. Baltimore's violent crime rate is much worse than the national average. Cherry picking a city with a much higher than average violent crime rate proves what? How many cruise paxs have been murdered in Baltimore? How much violence directed at cruise paxs or tourists in general? Now those stats might be relevant versus what you quoted.

 

I didn't pick a random city, I chose the main city in the state from where a poster commented

 

I could have picked any number of US cities where cruise ships visit. All of them less safe than a well armed and secure port in Israel, which as my figures proved, is much larger than any metropolitan city in the US where cruise ship passengers visit, where attacks during these troubles are targeted to certain individuals in certain areas. And don't forget, we're talking of far far fewer murders in Israel, a country with far stricter gun laws than the US

Edited November 5, 2015 by compman9
spelling

[compman9]

If you want to go to a place on your own accord, that is fine. However, a cruise line has a responsibility to all its passengers and employees. The might have been cautious but I do not blame them for making a call.

 

You have said this on this thread repeatedly, and I fully appreciate your views. You were not affected by the occurrence, so I can fully understand your understanding, generosity to the cruise line and your pragmatism.

 

You have not however commented on whether you think it is fine and dandy to inform passengers on arrival at the port despite the cruise line knowing well in advance of travel.

 

I feel like I purchased a vacation to the Rio Olympics but was taken to the local school sports day instead. As you are from the US, I can excuse your not knowing how inferior a Greek island vacation is to UK passengers. You have not commented on the provision of an inferior product either.

[JFontaine]

Now that there's the possibility that 200 plus tourists might have been killed by terrorists leaving "a safe resort town in Egypt" I wonder if anyone sees Celebrity's decision in a different light.

[compman9]

Now that there's the possibility that 200 plus tourists might have been killed by terrorists leaving "a safe resort town in Egypt" I wonder if anyone sees Celebrity's decision in a different light.

 

Please don't conflate an evil Isis attack with the Palestinian/Israel troubles

[Karynanne]

You have said this on this thread repeatedly, and I fully appreciate your views. You were not affected by the occurrence, so I can fully understand your understanding, generosity to the cruise line and your pragmatism.

 

 

 

You have not however commented on whether you think it is fine and dandy to inform passengers on arrival at the port despite the cruise line knowing well in advance of travel.

 

 

 

I feel like I purchased a vacation to the Rio Olympics but was taken to the local school sports day instead. As you are from the US, I can excuse your not knowing how inferior a Greek island vacation is to UK passengers. You have not commented on the provision of an inferior product either.

 

 

What do you want? Do you want Celebrity to refund the fate of your cruise, or do you want to continue arguing with all posts contrary to your point of view??

[mrsgoggins]

I don't have a view on whether Celebrity were right or wrong in the decision they took to change ports, but what is abundantly clear is that they did indeed provide an 'inferior' cruise and those passengers affected deserve a lot better treatment than they have had thus far.

 

Congratulations to the OP on your initial excellent post and the way in which you have responded to your critics. I do hope that Celebrity steps up and offers all affected passengers some form of appropriate compensation.

[cruisemom42]

Now that there's the possibility that 200 plus tourists might have been killed by terrorists leaving "a safe resort town in Egypt" I wonder if anyone sees Celebrity's decision in a different light.

 

What about the terrorist attack in Paris earlier this year?

 

What about the terrorist attack in New York on 9/11?

 

Are you suggesting we should all just stay at home and not travel at all? Because most terrorist attacks have been completely unpredictable....

[parallax]

Please don't conflate an evil Isis attack with the Palestinian/Israel troubles

 

Yet, you are using murder statistics from various cities in the U.S. to try to make a point. Why is this wrong but your murder statistics right? Is this the same conflation you are talking about? Israel has numerous enemies; it is just not a Palestine/Israel issue.

 

As I mentioned in my original post that I agree that Celebrity could have handled things better from a disclosure standpoint. How to remedy the situation, I am not sure.

[villauk]

I don't have a view on whether Celebrity were right or wrong in the decision they took to change ports, but what is abundantly clear is that they did indeed provide an 'inferior' cruise and those passengers affected deserve a lot better treatment than they have had thus far.

 

Congratulations to the OP on your initial excellent post and the way in which you have responded to your critics. I do hope that Celebrity steps up and offers all affected passengers some form of appropriate compensation.

 

I think many will probably agree with you on this. If pax were compensated on our cruise for contracting the Norovirus whilst cruising (Equinox August outbreak), then why are these pax not given some form of compensation for their inconvenience and understanding? I don't care either way whether people want to argue about should they have visited Israel or not, but they booked a Holy Land cruise and X were still selling those cruising as 'Holy Land' sailings knowing that they had no intention of visiting that continent.

 

As I stated on the other thread regarding the Shakespeare Signature sailing, I do hope those posters that have been preaching about cruises only being a way of getting from point A to point B, stress this to those pax enquiring about these special sailings: they may never actually get to see, or visit, the ports advertised on those cruises ;). Same would apply to the Cannes Film Festival sailing, Mardi Gras cruise, Chinese New Year....you get the drift.

 

Look at all the complaints regarding the new overnights and losing a port, and most of those sailings were well in advance, not 12 hours before cruising! Yet there was an uproar. So I'll repeat, the majority of people book cruises for the itineraries, even though there are those that keep telling me otherwise ;).

[sylmack]

I was on the same cruise as the OP.

 

I booked a Holy Land cruise.

I paid a premium for a Holy Land cruise.

Instead, I received the Greek Island Marathon.

 

Celebrity notified me 2 hours before I left for the airport. I was not allowed to cancel without 100% penalty.

 

Once onboard, I requested 20 minutes of internet time to book new tours, cancel my Israeli tours, and notify Kusadasi of the change of date. This was refused. Instead I was offered a single free phone call (limit 5 minutes) to call my daughter so she could do the internet legwork for me.

 

I am not faulting the cancellation of Israel, but Celebrity's treatment of justifiably disappointed, paying customers left a lot to be desired.

[need2bespoiled]

I think many will probably agree with you on this. If pax were compensated on our cruise for contracting the Norovirus whilst cruising (Equinox August outbreak), then why are these pax not given some form of compensation for their inconvenience and understanding? I don't care either way whether people want to argue about should they have visited Israel or not, but they booked a Holy Land cruise and X were still selling those cruising as 'Holy Land' sailings knowing that they had no intention of visiting that continent.

 

As I stated on the other thread regarding the Shakespeare Signature sailing, I do hope those posters that have been preaching about cruises only being a way of getting from point A to point B, stress this to those pax enquiring about these special sailings: they may never actually get to see, or visit, the ports advertised on those cruises ;). Same would apply to the Cannes Film Festival sailing, Mardi Gras cruise, Chinese New Year....you get the drift.

 

Look at all the complaints regarding the new overnights and losing a port, and most of those sailings were well in advance, not 12 hours before cruising! Yet there was an uproar. So I'll repeat, the majority of people book cruises for the itineraries, even though there are those that keep telling me otherwise ;).

 

I was on the same cruise as the OP.

 

I booked a Holy Land cruise.

I paid a premium for a Holy Land cruise.

Instead, I received the Greek Island Marathon.

 

Celebrity notified me 2 hours before I left for the airport. I was not allowed to cancel without 100% penalty.

 

Once onboard, I requested 20 minutes of internet time to book new tours, cancel my Israeli tours, and notify Kusadasi of the change of date. This was refused. Instead I was offered a single free phone call (limit 5 minutes) to call my daughter so she could do the internet legwork for me.

 

I am not faulting the cancellation of Israel, but Celebrity's treatment of justifiably disappointed, paying customers left a lot to be desired.

 

This is my biggest "what the heck" in all of this :(

 

I HAVE had a cruise totally changed, less than 24 hours before sailing when we were emailed at midnight the night before our cruise that our "Gem's of Indonesia" cruise wouldn't be going to Indonesia at all. OK, we got a 20% Future cruise credit and maybe some OBC (I can't remember, but I could look back I guess). Either way, I thought it was fair, others onboard didn't as they were disappointed in missing Bali and Komodo and I sympathize with them and the OP (and others on this particular sailing). Why Celebrity has seemingly treated this situation so differently is beyond me.

 

Happy sailing :rolleyes:

Jenna