Allure - Our room was raided and tossed!

[springfire]

Just now, Charles4515 said:

 

You don’t have to give them the password. They can however retain the device and send it for inspection and attempt to unlock it. You would have to decide whether it is worth it not to unlock it. Most people are going to decide it is not worth the hassle of denying the password or not answering questions.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

This is true but they do need probable cause for this step.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, springfire said:

Those are basic custom questions that we are all asked, at customs,  cruisers understand those basic questions.

Really?  All cruisers?  And yet your previous response was a blanket "Once you have confirmed with documents that you are a US citizen you do not need answer any more questions from customs."  Not, you don't have to answer anything other than "basic customs questions".   That is what Paul was responding to, he was not aware, nor was I, that there were qualifiers in that statement.

[springfire]

4 minutes ago, El Abuelo said:

The court has not ruled on this (electronic devices) so it is not settled law. Meanwhile, if they request the pw and you refuse, they can and will take your devices.

 

When you’re in the customs area your rights are limited. While you cannot be forced to answer every question asked, refusing to cooperate is not a smart move. All the advice in this thread to not respond to the personal questions is not good advice. 

 

 

I agree mostly but when a Custom agent gets intrusive and you are accused of something,  it is best to know your rights. 

[El Abuelo]

8 minutes ago, springfire said:

This is true but they do need probable cause for this step.

CBP does not need probable cause to inspect your electronic devices, ask for them to be opened / unlocked, or keep them if you refuse. 

 

They do need reasonable suspicion to carry out a  forensic examination.

 

Here’s a link to ProPublica with clear explanations.

https://www.propublica.org/article/can-customs-border-protection-search-phone-legal-rights

Edited April 1, 2019 by El Abuelo

[Charles4515]

This is true but they do need probable cause for this step.

They think they have a loophole to the 4th amendments protections. Certainly they will even bend the truth and say they have probable cause.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pratique]

3 minutes ago, springfire said:

I agree mostly but when a Custom agent gets intrusive and you are accused of something,  it is best to know your rights. 

I don't know if this helps, but even CBP admits on their website that sometimes they get it wrong. So for at least that reason, I agree that it's good to know your rights.

 

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority

 

[Junkhouse]

My 2 cents, it appears it is a lot easier to smuggle something into the ship from other "stopover" ports and you might have had other "markers" that seem to be innocent but when looked at from the outside or some unknown algorithm we are not privy too.  I was searched extensively one time when I was boarding a flight.  Had a relative in the airline industry who looked at my boarding pass and saw a secret notation that alerted the authorities that I should be searched.  My relative couldn't say what the code meant but I rationalized I had a one way ticket.

[Pratique]

1 minute ago, Junkhouse said:

My 2 cents, it appears it is a lot easier to smuggle something into the ship from other "stopover" ports and you might have had other "markers" that seem to be innocent but when looked at from the outside or some unknown algorithm we are not privy too.  I was searched extensively one time when I was boarding a flight.  Had a relative in the airline industry who looked at my boarding pass and saw a secret notation that alerted the authorities that I should be searched.  My relative couldn't say what the code meant but I rationalized I had a one way ticket.

Sometimes it's "SSSS" for secondary security screening selection.

[Aquahound]

35 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

They think they have a loophole to the 4th amendments protections. Certainly they will even bend the truth and say they have probable cause.

 

 

42 minutes ago, springfire said:

This is true but they do need probable cause for this step.

 

There is no 4th Amendment loophole and no reason to bend the truth because PC is not required to inspect electronic devices.  

[Charles4515]

 
There is no 4th Amendment loophole and no reason to bend the truth because PC is not required to inspect electronic devices.  

They think they have a loophole to violate the 4th amendment. If they don’t have a password they would have to crack the phone to inspect the contents. They may or may not be able to do that.

[Pratique]

50 minutes ago, El Abuelo said:

CBP does not need probable cause to inspect your electronic devices, ask for them to be opened / unlocked, or keep them if you refuse.

The EFF and the ACLU are challenging this in federal court under the First and Fourth Amendments, and they defeated a motion to dismiss the case. The government has been dragging its feet lately, asked for a discovery delay in January because of the shutdown. Since this is still in the pre-trial phase, I suspect it will be a long time until we get a final decision, and then the appeals will come.

[El Abuelo]

12 minutes ago, Pratique said:

The EFF and the ACLU are challenging this in federal court under the First and Fourth Amendments, and they defeated a motion to dismiss the case. The government has been dragging its feet lately, asked for a discovery delay in January because of the shutdown. Since this is still in the pre-trial phase, I suspect it will be a long time until we get a final decision, and then the appeals will come.

It will eventually be decided by the courts. In the meantime,  indefinition favors CBP, who takes full advantage.

 

When I was a young smarta$$ I said something defiant, uncooperative, probably rude and smart-alecky to the customs inspector at JFK. He just smiled and pressed a button somewhere that brought a replacement. He then invited me to join him in a back room, where I spent the next 2 hours. It was work travel and people I was with went on without me. Since then I answer the questions and hold my tongue. It’s sucks, especially when they’re being unnecessarily intrusive or just jerks, but it is always better than the alternative.

 

There is a time and a place to challenge authority. Customs and Immigration is neither. That applies to the US and every other country in the world. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by El Abuelo

[springfire]

 

19 hours ago, springfire said:

 

You do have some additional rights if you are a US citizen.  As long as you show proper documentation to customs, they can still search you and your belongings but they can not deny a US citizen entry  into the USA.   You do not need to speak with customs concerning any other matters other than the basic custom questions.  You do not need to give them any additional information about you or your belongings.   Not sure I would recommend doing this but this is your right as a US citizen.    If you are not a US citizen, such as the OP and refuse to talk with customs on whatever they ask you, they can still search you and your belongings and still deny you entry into the USA. 

I agree, Customs can search anybody and anything they want at a port of entry, they do not need any suspicion or reason.  They do need suspicion if they want to keep any of your belongings.     

 

To the OP, I am sorry you had this issue but you did a great job of keeping calm.  Thanks for sharing your story.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, springfire said:

Remember as a US citizen, you are only required to only answer the basic customs questions, you do not have to answer any other questions.   If you are a non US citizen you must answer all questions or Customs could deny you entry into the US.

 

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Really?  All cruisers?  And yet your previous response was a blanket "Once you have confirmed with documents that you are a US citizen you do not need answer any more questions from customs."  Not, you don't have to answer anything other than "basic customs questions".   That is what Paul was responding to, he was not aware, nor was I, that there were qualifiers in that statement.

That's because you don't take the time to read!  

Edited April 1, 2019 by springfire

[John&LaLa]

54 minutes ago, Junkhouse said:

My 2 cents, it appears it is a lot easier to smuggle something into the ship from other "stopover" ports.....

^this

[chengkp75]

22 minutes ago, springfire said:

 

 

 

That's because you don't take the time to read!  

Ah, so only two out of three responses need to be correct?

[Pratique]

22 minutes ago, El Abuelo said:

It will eventually be decided by the courts. In the meantime,  indefinition favors CBP, who takes full advantage.

The district court's initial ruling on the motion to dismiss weighs in favor of the plaintiffs. The district court cited Riley v. California, where the Supreme Court held that the warrantless search and seizure of digital contents of a cell phone during an arrest is unconstitutional. Even though the border is different, the district court noted that in Riley, SCOTUS acknowledged that digital searches are different from typical container searches under the Fourth Amendment. From this, it appears that the government will have to convince the court that the government interest in accessing digital devices without a warrant exceeds an individual's privacy concerns.

 

Of course the outcome could be different, but in the meantime I don't plan to unlock my phone. They can have it as is.

[ShillyShally]

32 minutes ago, El Abuelo said:

It will eventually be decided by the courts. In the meantime,  indefinition favors CBP, who takes full advantage.

 

When I was a young smarta$$ I said something defiant, uncooperative, probably rude and smart-alecky to the customs inspector at JFK. He just smiled and pressed a button somewhere that brought a replacement. He then invited me to join him in a back room, where I spent the next 2 hours. It was work travel and people I was with went on without me. Since then I answer the questions and hold my tongue. It’s sucks, especially when they’re being unnecessarily intrusive or just jerks, but it is always better than the alternative.

 

There is a time and a place to challenge authority. Customs and Immigration is neither. That applies to the US and every other country in the world. 

This.  And remember just like any worker, you never know who or what came before you and what may have clouded the mood of the day.  Same can be said for crew members on board, and ourselves at any given time of day depending on what is going on.  

[El Abuelo]

2 minutes ago, ShillyShally said:

 And remember just like any worker, you never know who or what came before you and what may have clouded the mood of the day.  Same can be said for crew members on board, and ourselves at any given time of day depending on what is going on.  

A very good point. 

[travelplus]

I came in through Customs at JFK and the Officer was very friendly. All he asked me was  how is California and that he wishes he could relocate there. Then he said "Welcome Home". Very friendly and cordial.

 

When I encounter a Customs Officer I always say "Good Morning etc" and have my Passport open to the right page. But now with Global Entry it so much easier. I will always keep my GE card because it saves time. 

 

Just be cordial with the officers and they will hopefully treat you with respect.  In another country I use the proper word like Bonjour and have my Passport Photo Page open and ready for them.  

[Charles4515]

This.  And remember just like any worker, you never know who or what came before you and what may have clouded the mood of the day.  Same can be said for crew members on board, and ourselves at any given time of day depending on what is going on.  

Crew members are trained on customer satisfaction. Law enforcement just wants results. Many are pretty rough. Some have been known to frame people....

[Charles4515]

 
Of course the outcome could be different, but in the meantime I don't plan to unlock my phone. They can have it as is.

I will unlock my phone. I don’t have anything confidential on my phone. I will change any passwords after I get it back. If I was using a phone for something confidential I would not travel over a border with it. I would carry a travel phone.

[ShillyShally]

14 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

Crew members are trained on customer satisfaction. Law enforcement just wants results. Many are pretty rough. Some have been known to frame people....

 

Sorry but on that I’ll never agree.  There are bad apples in every profession and I know and love many amazing law enforcement personnel who are neither rough now would frame people but have had to increase force in circumstances that warrant it, and would look rough to un untrained eye.  To say they just want results though is inaccurate.  I have also dealt with many through varying incidents and did not encounter results only focus.  They go through a heck of a lot of customer service training too, in so many ways.

[Charles4515]

I came in through Customs at JFK and the Officer was very friendly. All he asked me was  how is California and that he wishes he could relocate there. Then he said "Welcome Home". Very friendly and cordial.
 
When I encounter a Customs Officer I always say "Good Morning etc" and have my Passport open to the right page. But now with Global Entry it so much easier. I will always keep my GE card because it saves time. 
 
Just be cordial with the officers and they will hopefully treat you with respect.  In another country I use the proper word like Bonjour and have my Passport Photo Page open and ready for them.  

When I came back from Iceland last summer a very grumpy Customs Officer decided to inspect my luggage at the last exit from customs. I could tell he was not in a good mood though. I still of course said good afternoon to him and was friendly to him. He wanted my customs form and when I told him it was entered on the Global Entry kiosk that seemed to fluster him. While he was going thru my dirty laundry I told him about my trip to Iceland and suggested he put it on his bucket list. He didn’t ask to see my phone or iPad and after this ten minute mini drama I was on my way.

[ShillyShally]

1 minute ago, Charles4515 said:

 

When I came back from Iceland last summer a very grumpy Customs Officer decided to inspect my luggage at the last exit from customs. I could tell he was not in a good mood though. I still of course said good afternoon to him and was friendly to him. He wanted my customs form and when I told him it was entered on the Global Entry kiosk that seemed to fluster him. While he was going thru my dirty laundry I told him about my trip to Iceland and suggested he put it on his bucket list. He didn’t ask to see my phone or iPad and after this ten minute mini drama I was on my way.

 

This.  I always try to be pleasant and rarely can’t at least hope I’m more pleasant that others they may have dealt with.  The issue is if you immediately put your guard up that’s what you will get back, that human nature. Well except for my local DMV, I swear they’re trained never to smile :)

[Pratique]

6 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

I will unlock my phone. I don’t have anything confidential on my phone. I will change any passwords after I get it back. If I was using a phone for something confidential I would not travel over a border with it. I would carry a travel phone.

 

A travel phone and laptop is something I've thought of, but haven't done because it's inconvenient especially for work. I can't disconnect from work for a week and there is work-related confidential information on it. Nothing I can do about that except quit my job or never travel out of the country. My regular phone has everything, for better or for worse - personal and work related email, financial info, passwords to everything, social media, personal notes, calendars, photos.... Way too much.