Why do you hate HAL so much?

[HappyInVan]

Here's where Mickey's aggressive expansion has come back to bite him in the rear end. He can't maintain market positioning because of over-capacity. As Party Central goes down-market, he's losing $$ customers for $ customers. 

 

Here's the current financials. CCL has actually paid their debts down to 46% of equity. So, they're in a solid financial position. Whilst, RCL's leverage has grown to 92% of equity.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=CCL&qsearchterm=ccl

 

https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/?symbol=RCL&qsearchterm=

 

So, RCL has become the aggressor and they must now perform. Fortunately, RCL seems to have the right formula. Gross Margin at 45% is 6 points better than CCL despite the big increase in capacity!

 

Despite the cost of the high debt, RCL earned Net Margin 18% (CCL 15%) Translating into ROE of 16.5% (CCL 12.4%). CCL revenues are 2x RCL but CCL market cap is only  50% higher. 

 

Here's the important question for HAL customers. CCL $$ customers are being squeezed out by the party animals, and the periodic security incident. Where do they go?

 

[iancal]

I suspect that a fair number will remain and continue to complain and wax poetic about the glory days of ‘seafaring’.

 

We will select the itinerary and the ship that best meets our preferences at that point in time.  We are not looking to marry a cruise line...just looking for a date as it were.  The offerings are changing with market demands so we will attempt to maximize our personal return from an enjoyment and a financial perspective.  There are many good ships and cruise lines to choose from.

 

We do not really care about cruise line financials.  We are not shareholders or bond holders.

Edited September 11, 2019 by iancal

[Hlitner]

3 hours ago, iancal said:

I suspect that a fair number will remain and continue to complain and wax poetic about the glory days of ‘seafaring’.

 

We will select the itinerary and the ship that best meets our preferences at that point in time.  We are not looking to marry a cruise line...just looking for a date as it were.  The offerings are changing with market demands so we will attempt to maximize our personal return from an enjoyment and a financial perspective.  There are many good ships and cruise lines to choose from.

 

We do not really care about cruise line financials.  We are not shareholders or bond holders.

While I gave your post a "Like" I would suggest that frequent cruisers who have never purchased stock have really screwed themselves out of some decent money.  We have received thousands of dollars of OBCs because we own 100 shares of CCL and RCI....many times our original investment.  The stocks have also given us a nice return.  Every time we take another cruise its another $250 in our pockets.  

 

Hank

[3rdGenCunarder]

5 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

While I gave your post a "Like" I would suggest that frequent cruisers who have never purchased stock have really screwed themselves out of some decent money.  We have received thousands of dollars of OBCs because we own 100 shares of CCL and RCI....many times our original investment.  The stocks have also given us a nice return.  Every time we take another cruise its another $250 in our pockets.  

 

Hank

 

I think of it as an extra dividend. 

 

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, iancal said:

We will select the itinerary and the ship that best meets our preferences at that point in time.  We are not looking to marry a cruise line...just looking for a date as it were.  The offerings are changing with market demands so we will attempt to maximize our personal return from an enjoyment and a financial perspective.  There are many good ships and cruise lines to choose from.

 

We do not really care about cruise line financials.  We are not shareholders or bond holders.

 

Then, why do you keep posting on this thread? What's your real agenda?

 

Forgive me for being blunt. You guys have been brutally honest. It is only right that I ask.

 

BTW, does anyone in the passenger community care what you do?

 

 

[Hlitner]

3 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Then, why do you keep posting on this thread? What's your real agenda?

 

Forgive me for being blunt. You guys have been brutally honest. It is only right that I ask.

 

BTW, does anyone in the passenger community care what you do?

 

 

Me thinks you are being a bit harsh in your point of view.  And yes, I care what Iancal does because we make similar decisions.  While some cruisers are wedded to one or two favorite cruise lines (often having no clue about the rest of the industry) there are plenty of us who constantly reappraise the quality of cruise lines, ships, pricing, and itinerary and make our decisions somewhat based on the recent experience of other posters that we respect.

 

I have lots of "issues" with HAL and has impacted our own booking decisions.  At the current time we only have only 1 future HAL booking (30 days on the Westerdam) and 4 bookings with other lines.  As much as we enjoy HAL, it is near impossible to overlook its cut-backs and faults.  And some of the recent management decisions (such as eliminating Production Shows) really has me shaking my head.  That does not mean we are giving up on HAL, because things can certainly improve.  But with increased competition in the industry it has become very easy to find other alternatives.   While some lines (such as HAL) continue to cut-back on quality there are some other lines actually doing positive innovative things.  A great example is MSC who offers amazing quality within their Yacht Club (ship within a ship).  This has become so popular on MSC (the Yacht Club can book up over a year in advance) that the line is now building an entirely new group of "Yacht Club" quality ships that will begin hitting the market around 2023.  These are going to be in the 60-70,000 ton class and offer high quality (based on the current Yacht Club success).  I suspect they will price the product at something less than lines like Seabourn and probably  be price competitive with the smaller HAL suites.  Oceania and Azamara already try to hit that niche of the market, but MSC will likely be a lot more innovative (it is their style).  And since its a privately held company they are able to make quick decisions without having to deal with boards, stockholders, etc.  Meanwhile Viking Cruises continues to grab more and more HAL cruisers who appreciate the high quality of this company.  And quite a few of our old HAL friends are now doing most of their cruising with Oceania where they say the quality is similar to what they USED to get on HAL.

 

Hank

[AncientWanderer]

I would share that because of the recent cutbacks, we really have made some changes to our future cruise bookings.  We did have a couple "pleasure cruises" planned, that had many sea days.  With the cutbacks in entertainment, speakers, and dining quality, we don't want so many sea days, so we scratched those.  But we don't "hate" HAL.  We have cruises planned with them that are more focused on itinerary, and using the ship as transportation.  We look forward to those more active cruises with HAL.   

[cruisemom42]

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Here's where Mickey's aggressive expansion has come back to bite him in the rear end. He can't maintain market positioning because of over-capacity. As Party Central goes down-market, he's losing $$ customers for $ customers. 

 

Here's the current financials. CCL has actually paid their debts down to 46% of equity. So, they're in a solid financial position. Whilst, RCL's leverage has grown to 92% of equity.

 

So, RCL has become the aggressor and they must now perform. Fortunately, RCL seems to have the right formula. Gross Margin at 45% is 6 points better than CCL despite the big increase in capacity!

 

Despite the cost of the high debt, RCL earned Net Margin 18% (CCL 15%) Translating into ROE of 16.5% (CCL 12.4%). CCL revenues are 2x RCL but CCL market cap is only  50% higher. 

 

Here's the important question for HAL customers. CCL $$ customers are being squeezed out by the party animals, and the periodic security incident. Where do they go?

 

 

I'm just a simple traveler. All of the above seems like more than I really need to know and has little bearing on my yearly decision-making process of which types of cruises and land trips I want to plan for the following 1-2 years.

 

Whatever the previous HAL owners or Mickey did or do next, I will continue to look at proposed itineraries, read cruise line forums to get a sense of general trends and will read reviews on specific ships under consideration, and will make my decisions accordingly.

 

Like it or not, iancal's POV does represent what a significant number of people do.  We may like or enjoy certain lines more than others, but we are not emotionally invested in that particular line and are quite willing to try others that offer the best option based on our own criteria. 

 

 

[DFD1]

Fourteen pages of this.....If you don't like HAL cruise another cruise line.  That's not complicated.....Fourteen pages....

[awhcruiser]

1 hour ago, DFD1 said:

Fourteen pages of this.....If you don't like HAL cruise another cruise line.  That's not complicated.....Fourteen pages....

Exactly.....because people choose to digress and not stick with the original topic.  

[sail7seas]

On 9/8/2019 at 3:51 PM, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

So how do you explain the instances where returning passengers are remembered and greeted by name? are they psychic? 

 

On 9/8/2019 at 3:53 PM, richwmn said:

 

 

 

 

Coach,  Pete,      Again, why do you  care if, indeed some people  are kidding   themselves as to how  sincere is a friendship they  think of  as real ?  Why do you  think it so import ant they be told to "stop pretending?"

 

  How   about leave 'em alone    Who are they hurting?

 

  :shrug:

 

[AncientWanderer]

3 hours ago, DFD1 said:

Fourteen pages of this.....If you don't like HAL cruise another cruise line.  That's not complicated.....Fourteen pages....

 

Awww, DFD1, this is nothing.  I'm a big Disney parks fan, and you should hear them go on and on about changes, cutbacks, and so on.   People care.  They have a treasure box full of memories and traditions with these companies.  I think the continued discussion comes from love, not hate.

 

For those who just seek their entertainment where they can find it at a price:quality ratio that works for them, that's okay, too.  Just a different mind set.

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

3 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

Awww, DFD1, this is nothing.  I'm a big Disney parks fan, and you should hear them go on and on about changes, cutbacks, and so on.   People care.  They have a treasure box full of memories and traditions with these companies.  I think the continued discussion comes from love, not hate.

 

For those who just seek their entertainment where they can find it at a price:quality ratio that works for them, that's okay, too.  Just a different mind set.

 

 

 

Good point. I think a lot of posters hate things HAL does, but they don't hate HAL itself. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by 3rdGenCunarder

[HappyInVan]

Definitely.

 

Anyone interested in knowing what Carnival needs to do?

 

 

[pete_coach]

15 hours ago, sail7seas said:

 

 

 

Coach,  Pete,      Again, why do you  care if, indeed some people  are kidding   themselves as to how  sincere is a friendship they  think of  as real ?  Why do you  think it so import ant they be told to "stop pretending?"

 

  How   about leave 'em alone    Who are they hurting?

 

  :shrug:

 

You are asking me? After 14 pages of posts, you are asking me instead of someone else? The people that are HAL fanboys by insisting they are being remembered several years apart were questioned and came back to defend it?

I really don't care,  just popping imaginary bubbles of those that actually believe they are special. See SeaChef319 post in #330. It just confirms that the staff does get your information.

Do you or would you like going through life not knowing you were or are being deceived just to get your money?  (rhetorical question).

Edited September 12, 2019 by pete_coach

[kazu]

On 9/8/2019 at 7:01 PM, taxmantoo said:

 

Ditto 😄 

[DeeniEncinitas]

9 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

Ditto 😄 

I’m exhausted from this thread!

I’m surprised it has gone on for so long.

Denise😊

[sail7seas]

19 hours ago, awhcruiser said:

Exactly.....because people choose to digress and not stick with the original topic.  

 

 

I often skip threads that do not interest   me,  I am bored with or  have  grown  tired of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyInVan]

Hello.... thread continued here.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2695407-do-you-like-the-direction/

 

 

 

[awhcruiser]

2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Hello.... thread continued here.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2695407-do-you-like-the-direction/

 

 

 

Good grief....When will it end?

[slidergirl]

5 hours ago, awhcruiser said:

Good grief....When will it end?

Probably when you guys stop responding... 😉

 

[Germancruiser]

Why shouldn´t people respond- I called it a lively discussion! Well I can imagine the Ex- Hal - employee to be telling the truth about their ( HAL´s) change of direction and wanna get rid of the older passengers. If that is the right decision- who´s to know. It said that the aveage age has dropped - well some of those elderly cruisers who knew HAL in the 90´s are quite possible now watching us from above-  or below- so it can have something to do with that fact!

Celebrity is doing the same- so HAL is not the only one who want´s to attract the best agers- or an even younger crowd.

Gladly for us there so many options around nowadays- one can take his pick.

If you " outgrow" a cruise line - well then leave and turn to the next- which suits you better!

Starting out with RCI in the 90´s i moved to X- with a little dab to Costa ( not for me) and two HAL- cruises ( not bad- but lacks in the service department- self service in the Cafe´s and the Crows Nest- really?) and these days I stick with Cunard- which of course it owned bei CCL - but still for the time beeing is  my best option!

Edited September 13, 2019 by Germancruiser

[iancal]

My guess is that Carnival Corp can co relate each revenue/profit center on each ship to the demographic of the cruiser as well as to total spending by demographic.

 

They no doubt know (looking backwards) which demographic provides has the highest on board spending, how they spend, and the profit margin from each revenue center on the ship.  HAL may be the exception given their poor IT systems.

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, iancal said:

My guess is that Carnival Corp can co relate each revenue/profit center on each ship to the demographic of the cruiser as well as to total spending by demographic.

 

They no doubt know (looking backwards) which demographic provides has the highest on board spending, how they spend, and the profit margin from each revenue center on the ship.  HAL may be the exception given their poor IT systems.

 

HAL has a poor IT system? Can you give an example?

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 minute ago, HappyInVan said:

 

HAL has a poor IT system? Can you give an example?

 

Glad I wasn't swallowing coffee when I read this!!!

 

The website is awkward to navigate. It was phenomenally buggy when they launched it and it took ages to get it to where you could actually make a booking without being stuck watching the spinning circle of doom. 

 

The system onboard does strange things. The system on the K identified my free grats as "explore 4" even thought I did not have explore 4. When I questioned this, the concierge's computer showed something different from what I could see on the neptune lounge guest computer or my own device. Yes, the total cost was correct, but the accounting was screwy. 

 

If they can't get the website or the onboard billing system to work smoothly, they probably can't figure out how to review and study their profits/expensitures.