Ruby Princess police investigation

[Aus Traveller]

29 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Did they? I thought they just said respiratory. 

There was a clip on the news a couple of days ago where the senior doctor from the Ruby Princess testified that she had asked for the paramedics to be dressed in full protective gear as a precaution.

[Aus Traveller]

11 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

 

“ This allows researchers to identify who someone caught the virus from and also to identify clusters. Wow!!“

Agree, this sure does sound like 💩 to me. 60 Minutes making the narrative suit the story .....

 

Anyway - will be interesting to see what, if anything comes out of the Public Hearings tomorrow 🤔

The comment on 60 Minutes about researchers being able to identify the particular strain of COVID in a cluster came from a researcher. She made quite a point of it, but was not referring to the Ruby Princess. It wasn't an editorial comment.

[Blackduck59]

A little of topic here but does anyone have any numbers on Australians returning from the Cruise aboard Celebrity Eclipse that ended in San Diego after being refused at the port of San Antonio. There is some debate on another thread about the numbers of infected from that cruise and a figure that has come out on a group page on that other site that cannot be mentioned here keeps on being quoted as fact.

[OzKiwiJJ]

28 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Gosh, really pleased I don’t donate to them then, though they have pleaded a few times while browsing 🤔 

It's still a useful resource but you just have to be wary that some of the info can be distorted, as in this case. Hopefully and eventually that Wikipedia page will get edited to reflect what actually happened.

[Cruisegroover]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

It was interesting to hear from the man who was evacuated off Ruby Princess. Two things that struck me, the on board medical team perhaps was a little too confident about their assessment that there was no COVID19. From what he said it did seem they would not even entertain the idea he might have COVID19. Second if the ambulance personnel who took him were so worried to dress in full PPE gear how could the passengers have been allowed to disembark without further testing or quarantine? Hopefully we learn from this and come up with better procedures on and off the ship because it doed seem as if no one was really prepared for COVID19🤔. 

 

This patient's treatment onboard was discussed at length in the interview of the senior doctor and counsel for the special inquiry into Ruby Princess on 22 April. The full transcript is available on their website https://www.rubyprincessinquiry.nsw.gov.au/hearings/ It makes for interesting reading particularly in relation to dates of onset of symptoms, dates presented to medical centre. The transcript is hard to follow due to the very bad line of communication they were using so I don't want say in an open forum what personal opinions I formed but suffice to say 60 Minutes left out a few important points.

 

Swabs for COVID-19 were taken from him and sent to the lab as per protocol. This is why it was suggested the ambulance personnel to wear PPE.

 

 

 

 

[BRANDEE]

9 hours ago, Porky55 said:

Doing some research on Ruby and Wikipedia has a very concise breakdown of cruise ships and Coronavirus - Pushka you will 💕💕 this.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_on_cruise_ships#Ruby_Princess

 

 

Bullshit that the Ruby returned early due to flu breakout...Australia was closing its borders and rescinded the agreement to allow Ruby to finish until the 21, plus New Zealand was also closing remaining ports. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by BRANDEE

[christodan]

 

46 minutes ago, Cruisegroover said:

This is why it was suggested the ambulance personnel to wear PPE.

 

 The Doctor: "I did tell Bibi to please be sure that the 20 ambulance personnel were to have the correct PPE in place because we did not have a confirmed diagnosis on either of these two. And being an upper respiratory or a respiratory illness with a fever that it would be prudent."

 

Thanks for the link Cruisegroover. So as I suspected, the doctor advised the paramedics to wear PPE  to be "prudent" .  Not as some thought, because she suspected they had coronavirus. 

I think lay people have it quite wrong when they think doctors are 100% sure about something. One can never be 100% sure, but they have to err on the side of caution.  So I do not believe the passenger's account that the medical team were 'overly confident' that he didn't have coronavirus. Being 100% about something is not how science works.

 The inquiry even discussed the possibility of people having false positives and false negatives so clearly the person asking the questions understands how diagnosing  is not infallible.  

[Pushka]

2 hours ago, Porky55 said:

 

“ This allows researchers to identify who someone caught the virus from and also to identify clusters. Wow!!“

Agree, this sure does sound like 💩 to me. 60 Minutes making the narrative suit the story .....

 

Anyway - will be interesting to see what, if anything comes out of the Public Hearings tomorrow 🤔

Being able to identify the strain type is no myth. 

[Pushka]

18 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Bullshit that the Ruby returned early due to flu breakout...Australia was closing its borders and rescinded the agreement to allow Ruby to finish until the 21, plus New Zealand was also closing remaining ports. 

I guess we just have to wait until official records are released that will document why the ship did what it did, when it did and why it did. There will always be the information told to passengers, versus official information, and then, the media version as to what gets the best headlines. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Pushka

[rickays]

2 hours ago, Blackduck59 said:

A little of topic here but does anyone have any numbers on Australians returning from the Cruise aboard Celebrity Eclipse that ended in San Diego after being refused at the port of San Antonio. There is some debate on another thread about the numbers of infected from that cruise and a figure that has come out on a group page on that other site that cannot be mentioned here keeps on being quoted as fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_cruise_ships

Cant guarantee the accuracy but most probably fairly accurate

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

I think it would have been a responsible action on behalf of the ship's personnel not to tell a passenger he might have COVID. The ship could not do the tests so they could not be sure. There would be no point in causing panic by confirming that the passenger MIGHT have COVID.

 

I guess this is a matter of personal opinion but I personally would prefer my doctor to tell me if there is a chance my illness could be COVID19 especially if all the other test results are coming back negative. I understand a doctor not wanting to distress a patient and I guess it depends on the personality of the patient but from the interview it did seem to me he was the type that could have reasonably handled bad news and it did seem he wanted a realistic assessment rather than have his fears dismissed as paranoia. 

[The_Big_M]

25 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I guess this is a matter of personal opinion but I personally would prefer my doctor to tell me if there is a chance my illness could be COVID19 especially if all the other test results are coming back negative. I understand a doctor not wanting to distress a patient and I guess it depends on the personality of the patient but from the interview it did seem to me he was the type that could have reasonably handled bad news and it did seem he wanted a realistic assessment rather than have his fears dismissed as paranoia. 

 

Doctors and other professionals don't like leaving things up in the air. Also, throwing hypotheticals out gets people worried... imagine your doctor said it could be cancer but I can't say anything else. 

 

The obvious question if you could have it is then "how can I confirm?"-

which doesn't have an answer as he couldn't.

Then "should I take extra precautions?"

- Well, I can't really tell you but to be safe you should self-quarantine (when he probably doesn't even have a cabin to himself).

 

It just lends itself to confusion and annoyance onboard, and doesn't actually improve the situation.

 

Basically the solution now known is that the person needs to be quarantined. That was not understood then, and there were not the facilities to readily achieve this at that stage.

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I guess this is a matter of personal opinion but I personally would prefer my doctor to tell me if there is a chance my illness could be COVID19 especially if all the other test results are coming back negative. I understand a doctor not wanting to distress a patient and I guess it depends on the personality of the patient but from the interview it did seem to me he was the type that could have reasonably handled bad news and it did seem he wanted a realistic assessment rather than have his fears dismissed as paranoia. 

I feel that the situation in the enclosed environment of a cruise ship is different from when a person is at home. Just imagine if a doctor on a cruise ship said "Yes, you could have coronavirus but we can't be sure because we can't do the test". Most people would say to their friends and family "The doctor said I could have coronavirus". Within seconds, the story would flash around the ship "Coronavirus!! Coronavirus!!"  This could result in near panic from some people on board. I think it would have been irresponsible of the medical staff to agree that the person could have COVID when they could not be sure.

 

All they could do on board was to ask people with respiratory symptoms to self-isolate in their cabins, monitor their symptoms and treat them as much as they could.

[Pushka]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I guess this is a matter of personal opinion but I personally would prefer my doctor to tell me if there is a chance my illness could be COVID19 especially if all the other test results are coming back negative. I understand a doctor not wanting to distress a patient and I guess it depends on the personality of the patient but from the interview it did seem to me he was the type that could have reasonably handled bad news and it did seem he wanted a realistic assessment rather than have his fears dismissed as paranoia. 

Same. Tell me all the options and I will take my time and process them. It is my health and the Doctor owes their patients their professional opinion and how other cruisers take that information, if in fact they ever hear about it, isn't my issue to deal with. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Pushka

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

I feel that the situation in the enclosed environment of a cruise ship is different from when a person is at home. Just imagine if a doctor on a cruise ship said "Yes, you could have coronavirus but we can't be sure because we can't do the test". Most people would say to their friends and family "The doctor said I could have coronavirus". Within seconds, the story would flash around the ship "Coronavirus!! Coronavirus!!"  This could result in near panic from some people on board. I think it would have been irresponsible of the medical staff to agree that the person could have COVID when they could not be sure.

 

I see your point but IMO the doctor's first duty should be to the patient not the ship. To me there are other staff more suited to the responsibility of containing hysteria if such a thing really did occur. I would prefer the doctor concentrate on medical issues. Again there is no one size fits all approach but from this man's account his symptoms were quite severe, it does seem he was open to speculating his illness and being dismissed as paranoid everytime he suggested it could be COVID19 didn't seem to help him psychologically.

[Scromes]

If you read the transcripts it would appear that the doctor discussed the possibility of passengers having COVID-19 with them...

 

MR BEASLEY: Okay. Thank you for that. I just want to ask you just before we proceed on with what happened on the morning the ship docked in Sydney on the 19th of March. With Mr Londero and Mrs Bacon, they obviously knew that they’d been tested for influenza, correct?

 

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes.

 

MR BEASLEY: And they would have known that they’d tested negative for flu.

 

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes.

 

MR BEASLEY: And they would have been told that they were being swabbed or COVID-19.

 

DR VON WATZDORF: Yes.

 

MR BEASLEY: And did you have any discussions with them or did they ask you any questions about whether they may have COVID-19 disease?

 

DR VON WATZDORF: There would be the usual question, you know. You – we just don’t swab someone.

 

MR BEASLEY: No. Okay.

 

DR VON WATZDORF: We have a conversation so it would be a conversation. I could give you an example.

 

MR BEASLEY: Yes.

 

DR VON WATZDORF: It would be – so we’ve done the influenza swab – and this is, as I say, just an example – “We’ve done your influenza swab. It has come back negative. We are going to do another swab that we will keep for testing ashore once we reach Australia and this would be a swab that would include testing for COVID19”. Inevitably, the patient would then ask us, “Well, do you think I have it?”. And I would say – well – but that depends on the treating physician of course, right. I didn’t see every patient. But for my patients I would say, “Look, it always needs to be taken into consideration and we would take – you know, we would always err on the side of caution in this case, because you do have a fever. You do have an ILI or influenza-like illness which meets the case definition of potentially having it.”

 

MR BEASLEY: Do you have any independent recollection of having a conversation along those lines with either Mr Londero or Mrs Bacon about COVID19?

 

DR VON WATZDORF: I can – I seem to be able to recall having that conversation with both of them.

 

MR BEASLEY: All right.

 

DR VON WATZDORF: I wouldn’t just – because those swabs – we wouldn’t just swab someone and not have that conversation. It’s just ..... can I categorically say that I 100 per cent and have it recorded for you, no. But this is just the way I would approach my patients and the way I approached each of them.

[christodan]

Yes Scromes the doctors account sound fair more believable than the passenger's.  The doctor talks about things in a measured way and about risks and possibilities, etc. The passenger talks in absolutes. Medicine isn't like that.

Even if a patient tests negative,  doctors don't say "you don''t have such and such" They say "you tested negative". Big difference. So I don' believe the passenger's account.

[DiamondFour]

A Doctor cannot diagnose anyone with anything serious until the test results come back to confirm it. If the illness requires a test for confirmation then they have to wait for that test. They could suspect the chinachinaVirus but diagnosing something as serious as that would need the test result back first.

[Pushka]

Of course Doctors don't diagnose prior to confirmation but they certainly use words like Highly Suspicious and  Suggestive Of..... 

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, christodan said:

Yes Scromes the doctors account sound fair more believable than the passenger's.  The doctor talks about things in a measured way and about risks and possibilities, etc. The passenger talks in absolutes. Medicine isn't like that.

Even if a patient tests negative,  doctors don't say "you don''t have such and such" They say "you tested negative". Big difference. So I don' believe the passenger's account.

 

And therein lies the problem. It is he said he said. Anyone can say anything after the fact😬 Truth is we will never know what was said in that room.

[OzKiwiJJ]

15 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

And therein lies the problem. It is he said he said. Anyone can say anything after the fact😬 Truth is we will never know what was said in that room.

Exactly. Also people often paraphrase what they heard without realising it, so "you tested negative" becomes "you don't have..." in their minds and memory.

[ilikeanswers]

14 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Exactly. Also people often paraphrase what they heard without realising it, so "you tested negative" becomes "you don't have..." in their minds and memory.

 

It works the other way around too. Maybe the doctor was trying to say what he said in the transcript but how he said it at the time might have been easy to misinterpret or come out a lot more insensitive than he intended. When you have been coached into how to speak it is much easier than having to make it up on the go, I myself have dealt with doctors that could have done with a bit of speech coaching😉. 

[OzKiwiJJ]

6 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

It works the other way around too. Maybe the doctor was trying to say what he said in the transcript but how he said it at the time might have been easy to misinterpret or come out a lot more insensitive than he intended. When you have been coached into how to speak it is much easier than having to make it up on the go, I myself have dealt with doctors that could have done with a bit of speech coaching😉. 

I think the doctors on cruise ships are very careful what they say and how they say it. At least that was my experience when I had a health issue on Royal Princess a couple of years ago. 

[The_Big_M]

1 hour ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I think the doctors on cruise ships are very careful what they say and how they say it. At least that was my experience when I had a health issue on Royal Princess a couple of years ago. 

 

Just like police, they get used to saying things a certain way, so it's just standard to describe the condition as the results show. Not something they need to consciously modify.

[Cruisegroover]

I am listening to the live stream and boy is NSW Health getting hammered and there are literally tears. The transcript is going to be very interesting reading. So far Ruby seems to have done everything as asked but so much more to come. The Commissioner is not mucking around. They must be in a government building as at one point there was a lot of noise from drilling somewhere and he said get this stopped saying "I will not have this hearing obstructed, particularly by the same government that called it."