vaccine required?

[dog]

Time to consider vaccinating children, as well as, teens. Ontario has lowered age to 18 in high risks areas here. While in the News a 3 year was infected with the virus at daycare, spread it to rest of family& a teen in Montreal has died of virus. Many schools are going online again here n Ontario. I don’t believe testing is enough to let those under 18 on cruises this summer. 

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, azbirdmom said:

 

Congratulations!  I am sure they would want you to stay in the study.  And good luck to your DH with his Valley Fever check up.  That's nasty and very common here in Arizona.  I had it many years ago and got through it but I know of some who have had lingering impacts from it.

 

As for vaccines, my only concern now is that I heard that Dr. Fauci said that we may not need the AstraZeneca vaccine in the USA.  The card that the study gave to my DH had the usual info about vaccination dates dates and lot numbers of the vaccine but clearly indicated that he was in a study and it was an experimental vaccine not approved by the FDA.  The folks at the study indicated that he would get the CDC type card after the FDA approves the vaccine for emergency use.  If they don't will the authorities accept the card he has now to prove that he has been vaccinated?  The WHO and many countries have approved the AZ vaccine, I just don't know what it will mean for our future travel if he doesn't have the same card as other US citizens.

Will the cruise lines and/or the CDC only accept vaccines approved in the USA? No one has really addressed that. Possibly, the AstraZeneca will eventually be approved, possibly not. But what about the vaccines developed in China and Russia? Quite possibly they will be what crew member receive  in their native countries. I think it is fairly safe to say those vaccines will not be approved, or even request approval in the USA.

[GonzoWCS]

16 hours ago, deliver42 said:

I don't think the CDC will allow cruising without vaccines for passengers and crew.

Agreed

[Daniel A]

17 hours ago, deliver42 said:

I don't think the CDC will allow cruising without vaccines for passengers and crew.

I am under the impression that vaccines permitted under an Emergency Use Authorization cannot be mandated by the government.  At this point, CDC is encouraging it but it is up to the cruise lines to make the decision about requiring vaccination to board one of their ships.  If other lines see CDC granting Conditional Sailing Approvals faster to vaccinated vessels, then the other lines should get the point.

[Daniel A]

9 hours ago, caribill said:

It depends on if that other vaccinated passenger is in the 5% for whom the vaccination is not effective.

The studies are showing that even for the 5% that can get ill, the vaccine is still 100% effective in preventing severe illness requiring hospitalization and in preventing death from Covid.

[caribill]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Will the cruise lines and/or the CDC only accept vaccines approved in the USA? No one has really addressed that.

 

What I have read says also acceptable are vaccines approved by the WHO.

[caribill]

10 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

The studies are showing that even for the 5% that can get ill, the vaccine is still 100% effective in preventing severe illness requiring hospitalization and in preventing death from Covid.

 

Michigan officials say 246 people tested positive for the virus two weeks or more after becoming fully vaccinated – and three have died.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/06/covid-news-new-york-maryland-open-vaccines-16-variants-spread/7097703002/?utm

[ontheweb]

18 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

What I have read says also acceptable are vaccines approved by the WHO.

Has the WHO approved either the Russian or Chinese vaccine?

[azbirdmom]

4 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Will the cruise lines and/or the CDC only accept vaccines approved in the USA? No one has really addressed that. Possibly, the AstraZeneca will eventually be approved, possibly not. But what about the vaccines developed in China and Russia? Quite possibly they will be what crew member receive  in their native countries. I think it is fairly safe to say those vaccines will not be approved, or even request approval in the USA.

 

My concern was more about the proof of vaccination required to sail and / or enter another country.  At the moment, for US citizens the only proof would be the CDC vaccine card.  Unless / until the AstraZeneca vaccine is approved in the US, my husband would not be able to provide the CDC card as proof as he would not be able to obtain one for an unauthorized vaccine.  The CDC has indicated in its updated conditional sailing order that the crew must have been injected with a vaccine authorized by the WHO or CDC and the AZ vaccine has been approved by the former.  So it's the not the vaccine I am concerned about, it's the card.  Hopefully there will be nothing to worry about and AZ will soon apply for EU from the FDA.

[azbirdmom]

32 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Has the WHO approved either the Russian or Chinese vaccine?

 

Not yet.

 

"WHO issued an Emergency Use Listing (EULs) for the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine (BNT162b2) on 31 December 2020. On 15 February 2021, WHO issued EULs for two versions of the AstraZeneca/Oxford COVID-19 vaccine, manufactured by the Serum Institute of India and SKBio. On 12 March 2021, WHO issued an EUL for the COVID-19 vaccine Ad26.COV2.S, developed by Janssen (Johnson & Johnson). WHO is on track to EUL other vaccine products through June."

 

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-(covid-19)-vaccines

[d9704011]

6 minutes ago, azbirdmom said:

 

Not yet.

 

"WHO issued an Emergency Use Listing (EULs) for the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine (BNT162b2) on 31 December 2020. On 15 February 2021, WHO issued EULs for two versions of the AstraZeneca/Oxford COVID-19 vaccine, manufactured by the Serum Institute of India and SKBio. On 12 March 2021, WHO issued an EUL for the COVID-19 vaccine Ad26.COV2.S, developed by Janssen (Johnson & Johnson). WHO is on track to EUL other vaccine products through June."

 

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-(covid-19)-vaccines

Also here....

https://extranet.who.int/pqweb/sites/default/files/documents/Status_COVID_VAX_07April2021.pdf

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

The studies are showing that even for the 5% that can get ill, the vaccine is still 100% effective in preventing severe illness requiring hospitalization and in preventing death from Covid.

Not quite. The Israeli data on the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines show that mortality is reduced by 98%, not eliminated. That would take the mortality rate from around .65% to about .013%. against the original and b.117 variant.

 

No good data on large numbers with other variants.

[nocl]

31 minutes ago, azbirdmom said:

 

My concern was more about the proof of vaccination required to sail and / or enter another country.  At the moment, for US citizens the only proof would be the CDC vaccine card.  Unless / until the AstraZeneca vaccine is approved in the US, my husband would not be able to provide the CDC card as proof as he would not be able to obtain one for an unauthorized vaccine.  The CDC has indicated in its updated conditional sailing order that the crew must have been injected with a vaccine authorized by the WHO or CDC and the AZ vaccine has been approved by the former.  So it's the not the vaccine I am concerned about, it's the card.  Hopefully there will be nothing to worry about and AZ will soon apply for EU from the FDA.

The company should be able to provide sufficient documentation, even if not the CDC card, to prove vaccination. 

[azbirdmom]

16 minutes ago, nocl said:

The company should be able to provide sufficient documentation, even if not the CDC card, to prove vaccination. 

 

They have provided a card listing dates, lot numbers and the vaccine type but it says that the vaccine is experimental and does not have EUA from the FDA.  That's all they can provide until it's approved. Not going to stress over it as we have a lot of time before our first cruise and a lot can happen.

Edited April 8, 2021 by azbirdmom

[azbirdmom]

Duplicate

Edited April 8, 2021 by azbirdmom

[nocl]

7 minutes ago, azbirdmom said:

 

They have provided a card listing dates, lot numbers and the vaccine type but it says that the vaccine is experimental and does not have EUA from the FDA.  That's all they can provide until it's approved. Not going to stress over it as we have a lot of time before our first cruise and a lot can happen.

It should be fine.

 

Not sure if AZ is going to file in US.  They indicated that they expected to file in late March or early April. I would have expected them to file by now if they were going to.

 

With current vaccine supply they might not get approved if they did file.

[Pamster]

1 hour ago, caribill said:

 

Michigan officials say 246 people tested positive for the virus two weeks or more after becoming fully vaccinated – and three have died.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/06/covid-news-new-york-maryland-open-vaccines-16-variants-spread/7097703002/?utm

 

From these articles:

Of the 1.7 million people who are fully vaccinated in Michigan, 246 people tested positive for COVID-19 (yahoo.com)

Report: After full vaccination, 246 Michigan residents test positive for coronavirus, 3 die - silive.com

 

Out of 1.7 Million people vaccinated, that's a rate of about .0001%. Well within the 95% efficacy range.  The 3 who died were over 65 and 2 died within 3 weeks of vaccination (antibody response may develop more slowly in some people than others.)  

 

Raises and interesting question though.  In a fully vaccinated cruise, if someone ends up testing positive, what will the cruise line do?  Should be in their go-live plans.  Will they isolate everyone, or just the infected person and their immediate contacts?  Will they remove them from the ship.  Will the ship go on or be forced to return to nearest or starting port?  

 

Lots for the cruiselines and CDC to figure out.

 

 

 

 

[azbirdmom]

5 minutes ago, nocl said:

It should be fine.

 

Not sure if AZ is going to file in US.  They indicated that they expected to file in late March or early April. I would have expected them to file by now if they were going to.

 

With current vaccine supply they might not get approved if they did file.

 

That is what triggered my concerns after these comments from Dr. Fauci:

 

“We have three excellent vaccines. Even if the FDA deems that this vaccine is a very good vaccine, we don’t need yet again another very good vaccine. We have enough very good vaccines,” said Fauci, President Joe Biden’s senior medical adviser and the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

 

“There is no plan to immediately start utilizing the AstraZeneca [vaccine] even if it gets approved through the EUA, which it very well might. It’s not any indictment against the product. We just have a lot of vaccines,” Fauci told CNN. “We already have contracted for enough vaccines, from Moderna and from Pfizer and from J&J, to fulfill all of our needs as well as even having doses for boosters in case we want to boost them a little later on.”

[K.T.B.]

11 hours ago, caribill said:

Correct. But at the moment not even 50% of the population has been vaccinated or had Covid, so we are not at or near herd immunity.

 

Without herd immunity, those who have not yet been immunized and those in the 5% group for whom the vaccination is not effective are in danger of contracting the virus if exposed.

 

It is not that 95% vaccination rate is required for herd immunity as that is not the magic number (I have read anywhere from 70% to 90% in that guessing game), but that until herd immunity is achieved those for whom the vaccine is not effective are not protected from infection as much as they could be..

 

Currently 25% of the adult population in the US has had at least 1 dose of a vaccine.

[caribill]

16 minutes ago, Pamster said:

 

 

Raises and interesting question though.  In a fully vaccinated cruise, if someone ends up testing positive, what will the cruise line do?  Should be in their go-live plans.  Will they isolate everyone, or just the infected person and their immediate contacts?  Will they remove them from the ship.  Will the ship go on or be forced to return to nearest or starting port?  

 

Lots for the cruiselines and CDC to figure out.

 

 

 

Which is why CCL Corp said yesterday:

"The key thing is mitigating risk. We can't be -- prefer not to be -- hopefully won't be -- asked to stand up to a zero risk standard because, frankly, nowhere else in society is that being considered. We just like to be treated similar to the rest of travel and entertainment and tourism sector. And so if we do that, we'll be fine."

[K.T.B.]

2 hours ago, Daniel A said:

I am under the impression that vaccines permitted under an Emergency Use Authorization cannot be mandated by the government.  At this point, CDC is encouraging it but it is up to the cruise lines to make the decision about requiring vaccination to board one of their ships.  If other lines see CDC granting Conditional Sailing Approvals faster to vaccinated vessels, then the other lines should get the point.

 

You're 100% correct about the government may not mandate it, BUT a private business can.  Cruise lines can make it mandatory for health safety for not only the safety of the crew, but for the passengers as well.  The question is, will they?

[caribill]

5 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

You're 100% correct about the government may not mandate it, BUT a private business can.  Cruise lines can make it mandatory for health safety for not only the safety of the crew, but for the passengers as well.  The question is, will they?

 

In the U.S. a business is responsible for providing a safe workplace for its employees and a safe place of business for its customers.

 

Any business that does not require vaccines -- once widely available -- and also the current use of face masks could be on the receiving end of a lawsuit for not providing a safe environment for employees and customers if one of them can prove being infected at that business.

[Pamster]

20 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

Which is why CCL Corp said yesterday:

"The key thing is mitigating risk. We can't be -- prefer not to be -- hopefully won't be -- asked to stand up to a zero risk standard because, frankly, nowhere else in society is that being considered. We just like to be treated similar to the rest of travel and entertainment and tourism sector. And so if we do that, we'll be fine."

 

But the thing is that they're not really like the rest of the travel and entertainment sector, I don't think.  You get on an airplane, you're going to get off in a few hours.  Even if you contract covid from the passenger next to you, you're not going to test positive until 3-10 days later, and by then who knows where you got it.  If someone gets on an airplane with covid, and tests positive a couple of days later, they're not going to have to figure out what to do with that entire plane full of people.  And no other sector has the passengers out in the ocean and has to figure out what to do with them.  Where can the offload them, who will accept them?

 

It may be a difference that doesn't matter, but it seems like a difference to me.

 

But I do see his point that zero risk standard is unreasonable.  And if they have mitigation factors for one or two cases, that might be fine, and only an outbreak of more than X cases causes aborting the cruise and offloading passengers as soon as possible.  Don't really know.

[caribill]

4 minutes ago, Pamster said:

 

But the thing is that they're not really like the rest of the travel and entertainment sector, I don't think.  You get on an airplane, you're going to get off in a few hours.  Even if you contract covid from the passenger next to you, you're not going to test positive until 3-10 days later, and by then who knows where you got it.  If someone gets on an airplane with covid, and tests positive a couple of days later, they're not going to have to figure out what to do with that entire plane full of people.

 

But they should be doing just that. The infected person needs to cooperate with contact tracing proving as much information as possible about whom he/she has been in contact with. And the airline can provide information to the contract tracers about who was sitting in appropriate proximity to the infected passenger.

 

And if the infected person has been at an entertainment venue for several hours, likely without a mask for a significant part of the experience, others could have been infected there although not possible to trace and notify.

[Pamster]

3 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

But they should be doing just that. The infected person needs to cooperate with contact tracing proving as much information as possible about whom he/she has been in contact with. And the airline can provide information to the contract tracers about who was sitting in appropriate proximity to the infected passenger.

 

And if the infected person has been at an entertainment venue for several hours, likely without a mask for a significant part of the experience, others could have been infected there although not possible to trace and notify.

 

Good point.  But even if they do cooperate with contact tracing there's the airport, and the plane, and wherever they were going/came from.  A whole lot of possibilities.  But my point was more of an immediate - by the time the person turns up positive, they are off the plane.  The plane doesn't have a bunch of potentially exposed people on board that it has to figure out where to offload them.  Where the ship does.  

 

To me the difference is the number of passengers and the length of time that they are all mixing with each other, and then that they're all kind of "captive" until they are disembarked, that makes the difference.  And I would sure hope that everyone doesn't have to go somewhere to be quarantined, but who knows.