Carnival’s CEO states that they will not require vaccinations

[Tippyton]

54 minutes ago, jetsfan58 said:

First thanks for your service and dedication to our Country. Now go and get the Vaccine and serve your Country with that Patriotic gesture.

Show me the science that I should and I will.😘

[florida eagle]

5 hours ago, harkinmr said:

It is not untested.  It has been tested in clinical trials and evidence has been established that it is both safe and effective.  Both Moderna and Pfizer will be submitting further data for final FDA approval within a few months.  What will be the challenge then when folks can't say it only has emergency use approval? 

 

How many years do we wait to see if there are going to be long term side effects: 2 years, 5 years, 15 years, 25 years?  There are not too many vaccines or medical drugs or treatments out there that have an absolute iron-clad 100% guarantee that there may not be side effects years down the road, but we take them anyway.  Good lord, we take them now when there's a multi-page, small print disclosure of every possible side effect known to man, including death.  We take them because the benefit outweighs the risk.  And the approved vaccines for COVID have established just that.

 

Taking the vaccine is important because it will allow us to achieve herd immunity and maybe, just maybe, get out of this mess before we have more dangerous variants pop up.  I believe that it is our obligation as citizens of this country to do what is best for the common good.  That's an obligation that comes with the freedom and liberty we have been granted.  Not on a soapbox, just my opinion.

Many people have lost trust in media and entertainment people who they once admired. We should have total information on this virus with all of the media, entertainers, politicians and other son the same page. This became fodder as the riots are, for the election. And more then that there is good percentage of voters in this nation who believe it was stolen. Making headwinds with that is not easy. 

[harkinmr]

Just now, jfunk138 said:

Do you have any evidence that the CDC is actually working a plan to restart cruising by July?

Yup.  Try paying attention to something other than CC.  CDC met with the cruise line execs on April 12th.  Working group in progress.  

 

The CDC issued the following statement to Cruise Week this morning: "Experts from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and White House staff met with cruise industry leaders and executives to discuss the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) on Monday, April 12, 2021. Cruise industry leaders were able to provide input into the phases of the CSO, expressed frustration with the requirements, discussed the incorporation of vaccination requirements into restarting passenger voyages, and expressed the need to establish a working group with industry and CDC to work forward to resume cruising as soon as possible. Cruising will always pose some risk of COVID-19 transmission, and COVID-19 vaccines will play a critical role in the safe resumption of passenger operations. Cruise travelers represent a global population, and as more people are fully vaccinated worldwide, the phased approach of the CSO also allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for the safe resumption of cruise ship travel. CDC is committed to working with the cruise industry and seaport partners to resume cruising following a phased approach required by the CSO. CDC and DHS senior leadership will begin meetings with cruise industry leaders starting this week. The objective of the meetings are to mutually review the top priority issues of the cruise industry to work out implementation details of the CSO, including the impact of vaccines and other scientific developments since the CSO was issued in October 2020. This goal aligns with the desire for the resumption of passenger operations in the United States by mid-summer, expressed by many major cruise ship operators and travelers."

[jfunk138]

26 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Yup.  Try paying attention to something other than CC.  CDC met with the cruise line execs on April 12th.  Working group in progress.  

 

The CDC issued the following statement to Cruise Week this morning: "Experts from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and White House staff met with cruise industry leaders and executives to discuss the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) on Monday, April 12, 2021. Cruise industry leaders were able to provide input into the phases of the CSO, expressed frustration with the requirements, discussed the incorporation of vaccination requirements into restarting passenger voyages, and expressed the need to establish a working group with industry and CDC to work forward to resume cruising as soon as possible. Cruising will always pose some risk of COVID-19 transmission, and COVID-19 vaccines will play a critical role in the safe resumption of passenger operations. Cruise travelers represent a global population, and as more people are fully vaccinated worldwide, the phased approach of the CSO also allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for the safe resumption of cruise ship travel. CDC is committed to working with the cruise industry and seaport partners to resume cruising following a phased approach required by the CSO. CDC and DHS senior leadership will begin meetings with cruise industry leaders starting this week. The objective of the meetings are to mutually review the top priority issues of the cruise industry to work out implementation details of the CSO, including the impact of vaccines and other scientific developments since the CSO was issued in October 2020. This goal aligns with the desire for the resumption of passenger operations in the United States by mid-summer, expressed by many major cruise ship operators and travelers."

This meeting was discussed here on CC.  There was no mention of CDC supporting a July time frame and more foreign port sailings announced after...

[firefly333]

Coming up next on Maria B. segment carnival, maybe head of sea borne, with the effect the shut down has had on them. Starting now. Fighting to set sail.

[harkinmr]

12 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

This meeting was discussed here on CC.  There was no mention of CDC supporting a July time frame and more foreign port sailings announced after...

Read the last sentence.  Mid-summer is July.  The cruise lines need to step up to the plate at this point.  They've been given a platform.  Work with the CDC within the framework.  Don't just sit back and whine about how hard it is to comply.  The CSO is not going anywhere, that's pretty clear, so take the opportunity you've been given.  

[firefly333]

4 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

Coming up next on Maria B. segment carnival, maybe head of sea borne, with the effect the shut down has had on them. Starting now. Fighting to set sail.

He is saying they need to know now in april to be ready to said in July. Extrapolating they need to know by may in order to prep for august.

 

He talked about uv lights and other filtration systems upgraded for covid.

[jfunk138]

6 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Read the last sentence.  Mid-summer is July.  The cruise lines need to step up to the plate at this point.  They've been given a platform.  Work with the CDC within the framework.  Don't just sit back and whine about how hard it is to comply.  The CSO is not going anywhere, that's pretty clear, so take the opportunity you've been given.  

I'm still missing the part where "having a meeting" equals "support for cruising in July"...

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

I'm still missing the part where "having a meeting" equals "support for cruising in July"...

What do you expect them to do?  It's not their job to "support" any industry.  Their mandate is to support public health.  They have committed to working with the cruise lines to get cruising started mid-Summer.  The CDC is not going to do the leg work for the cruise lines.  The lines need to do something besides publicly moaning about how they are being abused.  If they think that is the path forward they're mistaken. The Senate bill to demand a restart to cruising failed day before yesterday.  The House bill will fare the same.  The litigation filed by Florida and Alaska is not going anywhere fast, so do what you gotta do.  They now have the opportunity to make their concerns known and to work with the CDC on changes to the CSO.  Just get on with it already.

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, Etta1213 said:

Blerk, i think it's tough to claim the high road regarding science, while allowing unvaccinated, unmasked people to pour across our border by the thousands. 

Science has shown they have a lower positivity rate than many of the states. The fear of migrants as a primary source of covid is unfounded and yet another lie. The US continues to be its own worst enemy. Migrants can be a problem, but some are trying to shift additional blame to them that belongs elsewhere.

 

 

[Radiioman46]

2 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

What do you expect them to do?  It's not their job to "support" any industry.  Their mandate is to support public health.  They have committed to working with the cruise lines to get cruising started mid-Summer.  The CDC is not going to do the leg work for the cruise lines.  The lines need to do something besides publicly moaning about how they are being abused.  If they think that is the path forward they're mistaken. The Senate bill to demand a restart to cruising failed day before yesterday.  The House bill will fare the same.  The litigation filed by Florida and Alaska is not going anywhere fast, so do what you gotta do.  They now have the opportunity to make their concerns known and to work with the CDC on changes to the CSO.  Just get on with it already.

i think that the cruise ships have proven themselves. The CDC has ignored the cruise lines. They first did the CSO in October of 2020, listing four phases. It took them from October to April ( 6 months ) to publish a second update, and still hasn't got past Phase 2. 

 

The CSO has no real definitions, no thresholds, and no metrics that can be measured, so that anyone could tell if the conditions were met or not. 

 

For example, politicians and the CDC claim they want to withhold cruising until they can do it safely. OK, what is the definition of "safely"?  We keep hearing about no more out breaks. OK, what is their definition of "outbreaks". Is it one case? two cases? 10  cases? 

 

Meanwhile, a lot of the cruise lines have been cruising, with over 400,000 passengers, and only a few cases reported. I don't remember the number, so maybe someone can fact check for me and post the number. 

 

The cruise lines have defined what protocols they will be using, which most of them didn't exist when the Diamond Princess was the first way back when. 

 

They have upgraded their ventilation systems.

 

The CEO of NCLH sent a letter to the CDC listing what they have done to improve the environment for cruising. What has the CDC done? They ignored his letter. Didn't even have the class to at least respond and list why their request was dismissed. 

 

So, does that fit your classic example of how to negotiate  with the cruise lines to get cruising started? To me, that exemplifies that their attitude is to keep the cruise lines shut down. I don't know for how long, but I'm not counting on packing my cruising bags for a long time, and it's all on the actions of the CDC.

 

YMMV.

[cruises42]

From an e-mail offer I received from Carnival today:  "If a threshold of COVID-19 is detected on board the ship, the voyage will be ended, the ship will return to the port of embarkation, and your subsequent travel home may be restricted or delayed. Health and safety protocols, guest conduct rules, and regional travel restrictions vary by ship and destination, and are subject to change without notice."

This has a better chance of happening if vaccines aren't mandated.

[BlerkOne]

Expecting science to have a decade or more experience with a virus that has only been known for 14 months +/- is an unrealistic expectation . That is what it would take to answer some of the questions. The only reasonable approach is an extremely conservative one. Odd that conservatives have become liberal.

[BlerkOne]

2 minutes ago, cruises42 said:

From an e-mail offer I received from Carnival today:  "If a threshold of COVID-19 is detected on board the ship, the voyage will be ended, the ship will return to the port of embarkation, and your subsequent travel home may be restricted or delayed. Health and safety protocols, guest conduct rules, and regional travel restrictions vary by ship and destination, and are subject to change without notice."

This has a better chance of happening if vaccines aren't mandated.

What is the defined threshold?

[cruises42]

3 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

What is the defined threshold?

Who knows? They don't say, but it still doesn't sound good.

[Radiioman46]

8 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

What is the defined threshold?

Exactly, that's my point. If the CDC can't give us the actual number of what constitutes an outbreak, then that notice that Cruises42 received is nothing more than a word salad that gives no guidance. 

 

So, as you can see, the CDC is not working with the Cruise Lines in any meaningful fashion to get things started. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Radiioman46
want to include more.

[cruises42]

2 minutes ago, Radiioman46 said:

Exactly, that's my point. If the CDC can't give us the actual number of what constitutes an outbreak, then that notice that Cruises42 received is nothing more than a word salad that gives no guidance.

Well the e-mail is from Carnival so maybe they know but are just not sharing the info.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, Radiioman46 said:

i think that the cruise ships have proven themselves. The CDC has ignored the cruise lines. They first did the CSO in October of 2020, listing four phases. It took them from October to April ( 6 months ) to publish a second update, and still hasn't got past Phase 2. 

 

The CSO has no real definitions, no thresholds, and no metrics that can be measured, so that anyone could tell if the conditions were met or not. 

 

For example, politicians and the CDC claim they want to withhold cruising until they can do it safely. OK, what is the definition of "safely"?  We keep hearing about no more out breaks. OK, what is their definition of "outbreaks". Is it one case? two cases? 10  cases? 

 

Meanwhile, a lot of the cruise lines have been cruising, with over 400,000 passengers, and only a few cases reported. I don't remember the number, so maybe someone can fact check for me and post the number. 

 

The cruise lines have defined what protocols they will be using, which most of them didn't exist when the Diamond Princess was the first way back when. 

 

They have upgraded their ventilation systems.

 

The CEO of NCLH sent a letter to the CDC listing what they have done to improve the environment for cruising. What has the CDC done? They ignored his letter. Didn't even have the class to at least respond and list why their request was dismissed. 

 

So, does that fit your classic example of how to negotiate  with the cruise lines to get cruising started? To me, that exemplifies that their attitude is to keep the cruise lines shut down. I don't know for how long, but I'm not counting on packing my cruising bags for a long time, and it's all on the actions of the CDC.

 

YMMV.

The cruise lines have not specifically defined the protocols they will be using.  The Healthy Sail Panel (RCL/NCL) protocols are recommendations only, not a specific plan.  Carnival has not come up with anything specific.  They released proposed protocols a couple of months ago and got such blowback from cruisers that they retracted them.  

 

There needs to be a specific, committed plan of attack for their ships sailing out of the US.  Media publications do not constitute specific, committed plans. The CEO of NCLH sent a "proposal" about vaccines being mandated and NCL's SailSafe program protocols, along with a request that the CSO be lifted in its entirety.  The CDC didn't ignore his letter.  The meeting and confirmation that the CSO framework will still apply was the response.  There will be a more public response from the CDC once they've made some headway on the framework.  People need to stop acting as if this is some kind of a personal attack on the lines and their CEOs.  The cruise line heads know that is not the case, but it doesn't stop them from acting otherwise.  

 

None of the lines, other than NCL have committed to some kind of vaccine requirement.  Carnival has specifically said no.  RCL is hedging at this point.  Is there supposed to be a two-tiered plan for restarting: cruise lines with vaccine mandates and those without?   Ultimately, all of the lines need to sign on to a specific plan of attack that is consistent along all of the lines or provide a way that a tiered plan would work.   

 

 

[Radiioman46]

2 minutes ago, cruises42 said:

Well the e-mail is from Carnival so maybe they know but are just not sharing the info.

That's true, it is from Carnival, but if the CDC gives them no definition, then that is all they have to go on. 

[Radiioman46]

7 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The cruise lines have not specifically defined the protocols they will be using.  The Healthy Sail Panel (RCL/NCL) protocols are recommendations only, not a specific plan. 

 

 

That's not true. They have all stated the protocols that they plan to use as well has showing the improvements to the ship that will help mitigate the virus. NCL has stated specifically that they are following the Healthy Sail Panel protocols, and more. I don't recall everything, but the Cruise Lines have been making their plans known for some time now.  

 

Again, it's the CDC that's not playing ball here.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Radiioman46

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, Radiioman46 said:

That's not true. They have all stated the protocols that they plan to use as well has showing the improvements to the ship that will help mitigate the virus. NCL has stated specifically that they are following the Healthy Sail Panel protocols, and more. I don't recall everything, but the Cruise Lines have been making their plans known for some time now.  

 

Again, it's the CDC that's not playing ball here.

Wrong.  Carnival put out protocols a couple of months ago and retracted them because there was an uproar.  The Healthy Sail Panel protocols were just recommendations: "should do", not "will do".  NCL's protocols are subject to change, so they say.  No cruise line, other than NCL, has submitted actual protocols that they will commit to for US sailings. 

 

Obviously you have dug in on the CDC not playing ball.  If that is your perspective, then so be it.  It doesn't really help anything, nor does it get the cruise lines to where they need to be.  It's just a lot of complaining. 

[BlerkOne]

19 minutes ago, Radiioman46 said:

Exactly, that's my point. If the CDC can't give us the actual number of what constitutes an outbreak, then that notice that Cruises42 received is nothing more than a word salad that gives no guidance. 

 

So, as you can see, the CDC is not working with the Cruise Lines in any meaningful fashion to get things started. 

Okay, you tell us what threshold cruise lines can deal with and control. The answer is unknown. The cruise lines have no current experience. 

 

What other real world situation can we use to simulate a confined environment miles from land with the possibility that no tiny nation would be willing to help (nor should they endanger themselves) a potential disaster? I can't think of one.

 

Reckless abandon is not a good path forward.

 

[Radiioman46]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

Wrong.  Carnival put out protocols a couple of months ago and retracted them because there was an uproar.  The Healthy Sail Panel protocols were just recommendations: "should do", not "will do".  NCL's protocols are subject to change, so they say.  No cruise line, other than NCL, has submitted actual protocols that they will commit to for US sailings. 

 

Obviously you have dug in on the CDC not playing ball.  If that is your perspective, then so be it.  It doesn't really help anything, nor does it get the cruise lines to where they need to be.  It's just a lot of complaining. 

Well, so be it. I've read and watched enough videos that are published by the three cruise lines to know what they've done to mitigate the virus. What is missing is real guidelines from the CDC so that their expectations can be met. 

 

If you think that I'm wrong on this, would you list enlighten me as to what expectations the CDC has published to help the cruise lines? I've read the CSO, so please don't quote that. i've already stated what is wrong with the CSO. 

[cruises42]

17 minutes ago, Radiioman46 said:

That's true, it is from Carnival, but if the CDC gives them no definition, then that is all they have to go on. 

Do you know that the CDC hasn't told them? I'm asking because  I don't know. I would think it has to be a percentage of passengers. So the number would vary due to the size of the ship.

[Radiioman46]

Just now, cruises42 said:

Do you know that the CDC hasn't told them? I'm asking because  I don't know. I would think it has to be a percentage of passengers. So the number would vary due to the size of the ship.

That would be a helpful threshold, would it not? Has the CDC given that as a guideline to the cruise lines? is that percentage in the CSO? I don't think so.