Cruise ship fight between Florida, CDC heads to appeals court

[RedIguana]

3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

wo judges have now said that "science and experts" didn't exist along the nonsensical COVID policies because the rest of society is back to normal life. It's time to give it up.

One Judge. The same one.

[jimbo5544]

In case anybody missed the sexond hammering of the cdc who

obviously did not comprehend the first ruling (reDing comprehension seems to be low on their list, way beyond overstepping boundaries), here it is.  As  I said before, it is over, there will be no more cso.  Cruising resumes, as self regulated, as it always should have been.  Good guys win again, bad guys lose again. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article252634543.html

 

 

 

 

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, RedIguana said:

One Judge. The same one.

Only one who counts

[RedIguana]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

Only one who counts

Nah, he is just the first one in line. I am just hoping the CDC doesn't try try and stick it to him by rescinding the CSO and reinstating a NSO.

[BlerkOne]

17 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

In case anybody missed the sexond hammering of the cdc who

obviously did not comprehend the first ruling (reDing comprehension seems to be low on their list, way beyond overstepping boundaries), here it is.  As  I said before, it is over, there will be no more cso.  Cruising resumes, as self regulated, as it always should have been.  Good guys win again, bad guys lose again. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article252634543.html

 

 

 

 

Apparently you don't understand how the legal system works. 

 

Meanwhile, cruising resumed just fine, and safe.

[RedIguana]

3 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

no more appeals

The first appeal has not even been heard yet. This ruling was simply the same Judge that issued the injuction refusing to stay his ruling until the appeal can be heard. It is just tossing more confusion and variables into the equation. The cruise industry does not benefit from uncertainty this way. And whichever way the rulings go, the government wins. After all, it is feds fighting feds.

[Stallion]

The CDC will simply ask that the Appellate Court to  reinstate the order pending appeal

[BoozinCroozin]

All that has been won at the moment is ending the injunction against the injunction of the CSO. The only steps the CDC has now is the Appeals Court. Or, if they chose to, they can get the "other departments" that want the cruise industry shutdown to shut them down. Since none of that will happen, the CSO is 100% gone on July 18. 

 

From here, the CDC and Biden Administration have several options. First is to see when the appellate court will hear the case. I think this time it won't be a bunch of paperwork, it will be actual evidence discussed. Second, the CDC can instate a NSO. This would be stupid and immediate civil and legal suits filed against the CDC and the individuals part of it. Third, be a bunch of Richards and make passengers jump through hoops at debarkation to be cleared to enter the country. One of those could be barring ships from entering US waters until 100% of the ship is tested and negative.

 

Regardless, any and all of these attempts look severely negative for the CDC and Biden. They should have worked with the cruise industry back in February. They could have done a lot of positive things to put cruising beyond where it is today. Imagine cruises starting in April for vaccinated only with no exceptions. Then May with a few exemptions in order to be ready for June with some odd 10-20% unvaccinated. We would be so much further along than we are now and we wouldn't even be talking about it.

[jimbo5544]

21 hours ago, Mallow said:

The CDC will maintain some authority and it may be worse than the CSO like stopping cruise ships that have covid on board from coming into the US.  I would rather have the CSO.

Of course they should have some authority.  No one ever suggested otherwise.  It is when the went way, way, way way to far.  Implemented untenable rules and were non responsive for 6 months.  In my view they owe the industry about 20 billion dollars foe the crappy job, but another topic for another day.  

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

Of course they should have some authority.  No one ever suggested otherwise.  It is when the went way, way, way way to far.  Implemented untenable rules and were non responsive for 6 months.  In my view they owe the industry about 20 billion dollars foe the crappy job, but another topic for another day.  

Exactly right. The CDC effectively stopped the cruise industry from restarting from the US entirely, and it relied on increasingly thin and unpersuasive evidence to justify the NSO. I'm so glad Judge Merryday finally called them on it. I was never against the No Sail Order at the beginning and even until the Healthy Sail Panel submitted its recommendations. But once it was clear the industry was taking proactive steps to control the spread of the virus, and even more so when some cruise lines were already sailing again with no significant cases, the CDC's stubbornness became more laughable and pathetic.

[sc4125]

Carnival is requiring that passengers be vaccinated and I believe they would have required it whether the CDC said to or not.  I for one would not want to cruise with unvaccinated - not because I'm afraid they will give it to me, but because I don't want to have to wear a mask and social distance on a ship on my vacation.

 

I think CCL is not only doing the right thing to keep passengers and crew safe, I also think that they know the requirement makes business sense - many would not cruise with them if they didn't require 95% of passengers be vaccinated.

 

 

 

 

[bstel]

43 minutes ago, Stallion said:

The CDC will simply ask that the Appellate Court to  reinstate the order pending appeal

yes, it appears most people here don't understand how the Judicial branch works.  Yes, the current judge refused to stay the order until the appeal is heard, but that doesn't stop the CDC from asking the appellate court to stay the ruling.  If the appellate court stays/doesn't stay the order then that is pretty telling in how they would rule on the CDC appeal.  If the appellate court thinks there is any chance the CDC would succeed in their appeal, they would stay the order to prevent chaos from the rules changing.

[lobster1313]

Just now, bstel said:

yes, it appears most people here don't understand how the Judicial branch works.  Yes, the current judge refused to stay the order until the appeal is heard, but that doesn't stop the CDC from asking the appellate court to stay the ruling.  If the appellate court stays/doesn't stay the order then that is pretty telling in how they would rule on the CDC appeal.  If the appellate court thinks there is any chance the CDC would succeed in their appeal, they would stay the order to prevent chaos from the rules changing.

The CDC filled this morning to stay the injunction

[TNcruising02]

July 7, 2021

 

TIME SENSITIVE MOTION to stay pending appeal filed by Center for Disease Control and Prevention, Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Secretary, Department of Health and Human Services and USA. Motion is Opposed. [9429786-1] [21-12243] (ECF: Alisa Klein) [Entered: 07/07/2021 06:14 PM]

[TNcruising02]

Just now, ontheweb said:

I was not disagreeing with different policies for different parts of the travel industry; I was taking exception to the poster who I have now put on my ignore list who maintains that each and every part of the travel industry should have the exact same rules (and anyone who disagrees with him (or her?) is stupid (er stoopid) and uneducated.

I think we all should be able to discuss this respectfully.

The CDC did treat the cruise industry differently in that it was the only travel industry that was shut down completely and required to jump through many hoops before operating.  It's common sense that flying was high risk, yet the airlines were never required to jump through test flight hoops or do any studies. Untested and unvaccinated people traveling by plane, subway, bus, and public transportation are the high risk modes of travel because people are sitting within inches of untested people for longer than 20 minutes.  Tested cruise passengers are low risk, yet the cruise industry lost billions of dollars when they were perfectly capable of operating with precautions.

Anyway, I know that we will never agree on these issues.  I am vaccinated, so I did my part.  It's was just hypocritical of the CDC to allow high risk travel while shutting down an industry that could have required testing before boarding.

[ontheweb]

1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:

I think we all should be able to discuss this respectfully.

The CDC did treat the cruise industry differently in that it was the only travel industry that was shut down completely and required to jump through many hoops before operating.  It's common sense that flying was high risk, yet the airlines were never required to jump through test flight hoops or do any studies. Untested and unvaccinated people traveling by plane, subway, bus, and public transportation are the high risk modes of travel because people are sitting within inches of untested people for longer than 20 minutes.  Tested cruise passengers are low risk, yet the cruise industry lost billions of dollars when they were perfectly capable of operating with precautions.

Anyway, I know that we will never agree on these issues.  I am vaccinated, so I did my part.  It's was just hypocritical of the CDC to allow high risk travel while shutting down an industry that could have required testing before boarding.

I think the main difference they saw was between essential and non-essential transportation.

 

And it is nice we can debate intelligently and without name calling and with respect for the opinions of others who we might disagree with.

[BlerkOne]

9 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Unvaccinated airline passengers don't have to take a covid test before boarding a plane. That's a HUGE difference.  People are sitting within inches of unvaccinated and untested people for hours on end.  Unvaccinated cruise passengers take a covid test.  Airlines didn't have to do test flights or studies to prove that sitting within inches of an untested person for hours would not result in an infection.  Flying just went on like it wasn't a super spreader.

Flying is essential. Cruising isn't.  Masks are required from airport to airport. Some airlines have stopped serving alcohol because of insurrection. Perhaps cruise lines should also?

[TNcruising02]

4 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I'll have to read the Jet Blue e-mail again, but I'm pretty sure they are not allowing unvaccinated passengers aboard, so the part about taking a Covid test before boarding is irrelevant. I know we will make sure to bring our CDC cards!

I have flown on SW and they never asked for a covid test result or for a vaccination card.  This was within the US.

[TNcruising02]

2 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Flying is essential. Cruising isn't.  Masks are required from airport to airport. Some airlines have stopped serving alcohol because of insurrection. Perhaps cruise lines should also?

Many people have flown for vacation purposes, so yeah, flying has been used for non essential travel.  Airlines don't require documentation to prove the travel is essential.  Covid can easily be transmitted on airplanes.  The CDC realized that if they tried to shut down that industry, they would receive negative results so they let it slide.  They singled out the cruising industry.

[TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail]

3 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

  It's was just hypocritical of the CDC to allow high risk travel while shutting down an industry that could have required testing before boarding.

This has been said a million times already-the CDC has no jurisdiction over any of the various forms of travel you mentioned except international flights.  You seem the type who prefers LESS regulation but only propose a solution of all (in the name of fairness) or none.  The cruise lines are on life support no matter how/when cruising resumed.  

 

Add to the above that most other forms of travel can be either for business or pleasure.  Cruising is strictly for pleasure.  Yes it is a form of livelihood for a large service industry.  So option (a) in fairness, shut down all close-contact forms of travel & see where the economy goes, (b) open everything post-haste and let the chips fall where they may or (c) proceed some things slowly after vaccinations are readily available.  Some form of option (c) sounds reasonable to most cruisers.

[dltvermont]

20 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I'll have to read the Jet Blue e-mail again, but I'm pretty sure they are not allowing unvaccinated passengers aboard, so the part about taking a Covid test before boarding is irrelevant. I know we will make sure to bring our CDC cards!

 

I just looked at their website and all it shows is a testing requirement for people coming into the US etc. I see nothing about a blanket statement of requiring vax for flying domestically. If they did that it would preclude any kids under 12 from flying..

[geaux_aces]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I'll have to read the Jet Blue e-mail again, but I'm pretty sure they are not allowing unvaccinated passengers aboard, so the part about taking a Covid test before boarding is irrelevant. I know we will make sure to bring our CDC cards!

I've flown a lot during the pandemic.  No airline is requiring vax to fly.  Only international travel is required to test and the only reason the airlines enforce this is because they'll be on the hook to fly you back to your original destination if you don't follow the destination countries entry policies.

 

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, TNcruising02 said:

Many people have flown for vacation purposes, so yeah, flying has been used for non essential travel.  Airlines don't require documentation to prove the travel is essential.  Covid can easily be transmitted on airplanes.  The CDC realized that if they tried to shut down that industry, they would receive negative results so they let it slide.  They singled out the cruising industry.

Even when the CDC recommended against non-essential travel.

 

But the air on planes is being exchanged every 2-3 minutes and passing through HEPA filters in between. You might as well be flying in a convertible.

 

NOTHING is comparable to cruising.

[kdr69]

8 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

NOTHING is comparable to cruising.

Well on this we can agree!!!!!!😁

[BlerkOne]

Looks like Miami is requiring everyone on B2B cruises be tested in between. Even vaccinated. That should speed things up.