Misleading policy statement on the HAL website

[Altamira]

I don’t know that this statement is intentionally misleading, but it is misleading nevertheless, and should be clarified.

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/frequently-asked-questions/faq-for-cruises-from-usa.html

 

“Updated November 1, 2021”

 

“Our cruises through February 28, 2022 are available for guests who have ALL of the following:

• Received their final dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine at least 14 days prior to the beginning of the cruise

• Proof of vaccination

• Proof of a negative, medically observed, viral COVID-19 test (PCR or antigen) taken within 2 days of their embarkation.”

 

That statement, right at the top, sounded pretty definitive and good to us. We’re veteran cruisers who have sailed with HAL in the past, 49 and 78  nights cruises, and loved both. All together we’ve been on 42 cruises in 8 different cruise lines, the last in late 2019, exactly two years (sadly) ago. 

 

Eager to cruise again we booked our first Norwegian cruise this fall. We are not familiar with Norwegian but chose it because of its no exceptions to the 100% vaccination and pre-boarding testing requirements. It sounded best to us. 

 

Then a couple of days ago I’m told that HAL also has a 100% vax requirement. So eagerly I go to HAL’s website and read the statement that I copied and pasted above.

 

Delighted, I continue reading only to run across these contradictory, unexplained statements. 

 

“Unvaccinated guests will be required to wear a face mask at all times while indoors, in accordance with health authority requirements.”

 

And also this:

 

“Guests who received a vaccination exemption are still required to take a negative PCR test within 2 days prior to embarkation”

 

I go back to the top and read again that this information was: “Updated November 1, 2021”

 

I then called HAL and spoke to a representative who assured me that the vaccination policy was 100% enforced, in fact she said she herself was taking a HAL cruise this year and wouldn’t be doing it if it weren’t so. She was unable to explain the discrepancy i had noted.

 

I asked her to find out who might be able to explain it to both of us and she graciously agreed and put me on hold. When she came back she told me that apparently yes, a small ratio of unvaccinated passengers are allowed to sail, their number in accordance with guidelines set by the CDC. So I thanked her. She added that for even greater safety masks were also mandatory in all indoor places onboard.  Another contradiction to the information on the website, which I didn’t point out to her because by then I had learned what I needed to know.
 

We may like or not like HAL’s policy on this issue. And there may or may not have been intentionality in their choosing to omit such an important and pertinent fact in their policy statement on vaccinations. But that lack of clarity right up front is not doing the HAL brand any favors, and I’m disappointed and sorry for it.

[VMax1700]

I don't find it misleading.

As stated at the top, HAL has 100% vaccination requirement through February 28th, 2022.  However, they are booking cruises out to November 2023 and are accepting bookings from everyone, whether vaxed or not.  To do otherwise would be a poor business decision, at this moment.  However, if they extend the vax requirement (and I sincerely hope that they do) then those who booked and are unvaxed will have to cancel their cruise.

I certainly would not cruise on a line with unvaxed pax, but understand that cruise lines need to book in advance and need the cash flow from booking deposits.

Vax policies will continue to evolve over the coming years. 

All that being said, it would not be the first time that the HAL website had erroneous information on it. 

[HALrunner]

I would like more information about this statement:

 

"small ratio of unvaccinated passengers are allowed to sail"

 

How small of a ratio is this? Perhaps they have additional safety measures in place, like no independent shore excursions, more frequent testing, etc?

[Divi]

I think (hope) @VMax1700 is correct. Our February, 2022 cruise is advertised as a vaccinated cruise however a March, 2023 cruise is not.

[Altamira]

1 hour ago, VMax1700 said:

I don't find it misleading.

As stated at the top, HAL has 100% vaccination requirement through February 28th, 2022.  However, they are booking cruises out to November 2023 and are accepting bookings from everyone, whether vaxed or not.  To do otherwise would be a poor business decision, at this moment.  However, if they extend the vax requirement (and I sincerely hope that they do) then those who booked and are unvaxed will have to cancel their cruise.

I certainly would not cruise on a line with unvaxed pax, but understand that cruise lines need to book in advance and need the cash flow from booking deposits.

Vax policies will continue to evolve over the coming years. 

All that being said, it would not be the first time that the HAL website had erroneous information on it. 

With all due respect, you are completely missing the point which frankly I clearly made. I am not criticizing HAL for their current policy, nor judging the wisdom of their business decisions present or future. Nor am I denying the obvious need for policies to be adapted as needed for evolving situations.
 

But anybody who reads HAL’s policy as clearly stated, that now and at least until the date stated, that all guests must be vaccinated, and farther down runs across the statements about unvaccinated guests will, if paying attention, notice and question the discrepancy. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Altamira

[syesmar]

Back in August, there was some confusion over FAQ wording regarding crew members. See here and here for more. They were actually all vaccinated, but the FAQ was a bit vague.

 

Regarding passengers, I think as it stands at the moment, the FAQ about exceptions is quite clear that right now no exemptions are allowed to board through February 28, 2022, although I am curious about what the OP was told over the phone.

Q: What if I am exempt from receiving the vaccine?

A: At this time, sailings through February 28, 2022 are available to fully vaccinated guests.

Edited November 10, 2021 by syesmar

[VMax1700]

19 minutes ago, Altamira said:

you are completely missing the point

I read the link that you supplied.

Nowhere on that link does it mention the two 'unexplained statements' that you post above.

ALL guests will be required to wear a face mask – with no exceptions – in elevators and in designated indoor entertainment areas, all retail shops, and in the casino except when eating or drinking. Guests will also be required to wear face masks prior to being seated in our main dining rooms and in the buffet area, and occasionally in other designated areas where larger number of guests may congregate. 

 

[Djb4CC]

So the CDC’s definition of a vaccinated cruise (as a means to avoid doing simulated cruises under the CSO) was 98% crew and 95% guests.  

If you watch the video on the HAL FAQ site https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/frequently-asked-questions.html and the first question talks about these cruises are being operated as vaccinated cruises with guests and crew approaching 100%.

 

And if you read the FAQ, one of the questions relates to crew vaccinations and the answer given is “Yes, our crew will be vaccinated in accordance with CDC guidelines.“ I would imagine that the company has to provide reasonable accommodation to crew who can’t for medical/religious reasons an exemption.

 

And for guests, the FAQ is very clear between now and Feb 2022 for guests “Proof of COVID-19 vaccination and the dates given will be required and will need to be shown at the terminal prior to boarding. Failure to provide this evidence will result in denial of boarding.”

 

So based on all of this, I would assume that any unvaccinated individuals you may encounter in the Nov-Feb time period would be crew members.

[igraf]

1 hour ago, Altamira said:

....

But anybody who reads HAL’s policy as clearly stated, that now and at least until the date stated, that all guests must be vaccinated, and farther down runs across the statements about unvaccinated guests will, if paying attention, notice and question the discrepancy. 

 

Vaccination policy enforcement will never be perfect.  For example, there will always be people with fake vaccination cards.  Take comfort in the fact that you are vaccinated, with a booster shot, and that you will be surrounded by mostly vaccinated people.  Furthermore there is an antiviral pill from Pfizer that will be approved soon should the worst happen. 

 

Enjoy the cruise.

 

igraf

 

 

 

[Jersey42]

4 hours ago, Altamira said:

Delighted, I continue reading only to run across these contradictory, unexplained statements. 

 

“Unvaccinated guests will be required to wear a face mask at all times while indoors, in accordance with health authority requirements.”

 

And also this:

 

“Guests who received a vaccination exemption are still required to take a negative PCR test within 2 days prior to embarkation”

I can't find these words (unexplained statements) either, at least not on the link you provided in the original post (https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/frequently-asked-questions/faq-for-cruises-from-usa.html).  If the words are still out there, can you tell us exactly where.  I am looking on the US site.

[Altamira]

I will confess that I (retired HS teacher) was guessing some of you might possibly have a reading difficulty that following the link I provided, and it not being a very long read, that you couldn’t find the paragraphs from it that I had copied and pasted. 

 

My apologies! 
 

I followed the link again, and went back to the same HAL site which, as before, still indicated having been “Updated November 1, 2021”. And to my surprise those paragraphs were not to be found. I looked for a reference of a more recent update and found none. It doesn’t say that the Nov 1st update was the last update, only that it was a day where an update had been made. 

 

It has obviously been further updated. 

 

It may be coincidental that a change occurred after my conversation with the HAL agent on the phone who was accessing the same web page where the contradictory remarks that I was questioning were stated. But she did convey to me the information I shared here regarding the approved CDC ratio for unvaccinated passengers. I had not previously heard of such.

 

Of course it’s understood that whoever said that to her may have been mistaken. 

 

Regardless, I am thrilled, (or as my grandkids would say: “Absolutely Geeked” 😂), if HAL is requiring 100% vaccinations from guests and crew, regardless of age or any other factors. We’re avid cruisers and are hopeful that normalcy will soon allow us to cruise as before. Our two longest (and among our favorite) cruises were with HAL. 

 

But for right now, on our first cruise in two years, Norwegian sounds a LOT safer to us. Their strict, no exceptions, vaccination policy and their test requirement, at their expense, at the dock prior to boarding, plus their recommendation to get a CPR or antigen test before even showing up at the port, all sound great. (NCL will assist with expenses should you test positive and denied embarkation, if you’ve proof of a CPR or antigen test taken within 96 hours of sailing.) Once on board, masks are not required. 

 

Partying as if it were 2019…🛳🥳😁

 

(This about the masks doesn’t apply to cruises originating in European ports apparently.) 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ShipWalker]

Google is my friend.

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/covid-guest-protocols.html

 

Masks, Second paragraph, Third line

[ski ww]

I agree it is confusing.

[Altamira]

39 minutes ago, ShipWalker said:

Google is my friend.

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/covid-guest-protocols.html

 

Masks, Second paragraph, Third line

It’s still there?? Oh goodness. Funny!

 

Masks

ALL guests will be required to wear a face mask – with no exceptions – in elevators and in designated indoor entertainment areas, all retail shops, and in the casino except when eating or drinking. Guests will also be required to wear face masks prior to being seated in our main dining rooms and in the buffet area, and occasionally in other designated areas where larger number of guests may congregate. This currently applies to sailings through February 28, 2022, however, guidance will be re-evaluated on an ongoing basis. As a reminder, masks are required during embark and debark in the terminal, and masks should also be worn during the debarkation process on board.

We’d always recommend guests wash or replace their mask daily and choose a good quality, ideally medical grade, standard mask. Please note that visors and face shields will not be accepted as a substitute for a face mask. Unvaccinated guests will be required to wear a face mask at all times while indoors, in accordance with health authority requirements.

These new requirements are being implemented to protect our guests and crew while onboard. Several destinations have implemented their own requirements and all guests will be required to follow the protocols in each destination we visit. We expect these requirements will be temporary and we appreciate your cooperation and look forward to welcoming you aboard.



 

[TiogaCruiser]

Hmmm. I’m wondering if the links are not current. (Like the pages were updated, but not linked to from the menu.) When you have tons of pages, it’s easy to loose clarity on what is linked to and from where.😉)

 

If you navigate back up to the home page, then back down to Travel Well, I’m finding different content that does not include a loophole for unvaccinated. In fact, it shows the vaccine requirement.

[NancyIL]

HAL's web site is advertising Kids Cruise Free for some cruises through May 31, 2022. https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/deals/kids-cruise-free.html?ICID=HECIV1103211334  Kids ages 5-17 are supposed to be fully  vaccinated for cruises sailing through Feb. 28, but who knows what the policy will be after Feb. 28?

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by NancyIL

[syesmar]

Given the difference between the 2 pages

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/covid-guest-protocols.html

and

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/frequently-asked-questions/faq-for-cruises-from-usa.html

it would seem that since HAL is apparently taking bookings post-February from the unvaccinated, the statement is included so it is clear what will be expected *should* the 100% requirement not be extended.

I am still curious about what the phone agent told @Altamira , could it be the model (with a small ratio of unvaccinated) they’re currently using for booking post-February cruises? Anyone know when booking a post-February sailing if potential passengers are asked about vaccination status?

Edited November 13, 2021 by syesmar

[iceman93]

I have a cruise booked for July, which to be fair was booked before all the new rules came into effect, but vaccination status was not asked for.

[Hlitner]

As one who has continued to travel throughout the pandemic, including two cruises since July, I think folks need to just sit back and understand that the rules/restrictions for all travel (including cruises) are constantly changing...even on a daily basis.  Trying to pin down future rules/restrictions is an exercise in futility.  Also understand that many of the rules are beyond the control of any cruise line as they can be dictated by home ports, any port on an itinerary, insurance carriers, etc.  Bottom line is that cruisers will need to book their cruises and then watch the changes in the rules.  This means that folks should be fully vaccinated (included boosters) and have normal documentation so that they are prepared for any kind of rule change.  The alternative is to just not cruise or to limit yourself to last minute bookings.

 

Hank

 

[Altamira]

5 hours ago, syesmar said:

Given the difference between the 2 pages

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/covid-guest-protocols.html

and

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/worry-free-promise/travel-well/frequently-asked-questions/faq-for-cruises-from-usa.html

it would seem that since HAL is apparently taking bookings post-February from the unvaccinated, the statement is included so it is clear what will be expected *should* the 100% requirement not be extended.

I am still curious about what the phone agent told @Altamira , could it be the model (with a small ratio of unvaccinated) they’re currently using for booking post-February cruises? Anyone know when booking a post-February sailing if potential passengers are asked about vaccination status?

While I waited on hold the HAL agent asked someone, (possibly a supervisor?), to explain the discrepancy that I had brought to her attention. When she came back on she said that the reason was that the CDC guidelines for cruise ships allow for a small number of passengers (it’s 5%), to be unvaccinated and still have a sailing considered fully vaccinated. That’s why there were the statements about unvaccinated passengers in HAL’s website.
 

I have no way to judge if these calculations are or aren’t perfectly valid for assessing likely risk of  viral transmission on a cruise ship. I’m sure that the CDC with the best scientific minds in the world in the field of virology, either know or are in the best position to make those judgements. 
 

But 95% and 100% are two different numbers and I just didn’t like the statement on HAL’s website about the 100% vaccination requirement, applying now and through February, followed by comments about the unvaccinated passengers. Facts are important. They should absolutely make those crystal clear. 

[syesmar]

34 minutes ago, Altamira said:

…When she came back on she said that the reason was that the CDC guidelines for cruise ships allow for a small number of passengers (it’s 5%), to be unvaccinated and still have a sailing considered fully vaccinated….
 

But 95% and 100% are two different numbers…Facts are important. They should absolutely make those crystal clear. 

I recall back in the summer, other cruise lines who followed the 95%/5% route were considered “fully vaccinated” sailings, but HAL made it clear that current sailings had 100% vaccinated passengers (they weren’t as clear about crew, although see previous comments above). I agree, I’d like some clarification in light of what you were told.

[teresitaboy]

No one seems to talk about ,on your way back to port if you test positive when you dock are you hauled off to motel holding pin for 14 days?

Anyone been through this?

[Altamira]

52 minutes ago, syesmar said:

I recall back in the summer, other cruise lines who followed the 95%/5% route were considered “fully vaccinated” sailings, but HAL made it clear that current sailings had 100% vaccinated passengers (they weren’t as clear about crew, although see previous comments above). I agree, I’d like some clarification in light of what you were told.

Check out Norwegian’s policy by comparison. We’ve never cruised with them before, but our first cruise after Covid is with them (in 3 weeks!) because of their no-exceptions, for any reason ,100% vaccination requirement, for passengers and crew, plus the mandatory antigen test (at their expense) at the dock prior to embarkation, plus the incentive to get tested within 96 hours prior to sail date to qualify for NCL assistance with expenses (hotels and transportation) should your dockside test be positive. We would have made bookings with HAL, had their policy been comparable because we know HAL and we don’t know NCL.

[sailingdutchy]

6 hours ago, Altamira said:

While I waited on hold the HAL agent asked someone, (possibly a supervisor?), to explain the discrepancy that I had brought to her attention. When she came back on she said that the reason was that the CDC guidelines for cruise ships allow for a small number of passengers (it’s 5%), to be unvaccinated and still have a sailing considered fully vaccinated. That’s why there were the statements about unvaccinated passengers in HAL’s website.
 

I have no way to judge if these calculations are or aren’t perfectly valid for assessing likely risk of  viral transmission on a cruise ship. I’m sure that the CDC with the best scientific minds in the world in the field of virology, either know or are in the best position to make those judgements. 
 

But 95% and 100% are two different numbers and I just didn’t like the statement on HAL’s website about the 100% vaccination requirement, applying now and through February, followed by comments about the unvaccinated passengers. Facts are important. They should absolutely make those crystal clear. 

 

Sorry to read all of the statements that you are making @Altamirajust based on a phone call with one employee who is working from home , we were told there are hardly any people working from the main office  in Seattle at least none that work the phones.

. We were on a Holland America cruise last month for 25 days  and I can tell you that everybody had to be 100% vaccinated and those vaccinations had to be either Pfizer or Moderna  .  Astro Zeneca or J& J  was not a valid vaccine to be able to get on board . There were no children on board because of these rules .  Masks were worn in all interior places on the ship , on embarkation and disembarkation  with the exception when you were in your own cabin , enjoying your meal or having a drink or on the outside decks. 

Sometimes even after all the months and months we have worn masks we were almost immediately politely told  if we forgot in the Lido for instance when getting some extra food or a desert  to please put on your mask.

We had to have a PCR test within 72 hours of getting on board , this is a rule NOT a recommendation we  than had an antigen test at the cruise terminal had our temperature taken a couple of times and another antigen test on the B2B portion of the cruise .  Because the Canadian government insists that we have proof of a PCR test before we enter our country  Holland America provided that test at no cost to us . 

If people had a false positive you would get isolated for the required number of days , if you had to go to the medical centre for any reason you might get tested for Covid even more.  

 

So please do not guess what the rules are or make statements or guesses about the procedures on board Holland America cruises .

They are doing an amazing job in very difficult circumstances . 

Can you imagine we were in 25 days in 8 different countries each having different regulations and guests were allowed to get ashore in each country . Mind you in Italy only on Holland America Tours .

 

So I was not a teacher , as a matter of fact I am an immigrant to Canada and am not perfect in my English reading or writing  but I felt the necessity to make my statement and tell you about our experience on board of a Holland America ship which was fully vaccinated. 

 

Holland America is taking this very seriously !  Sorry I did not read the Norwegian rules ........

 

Tony 

 

 

[Crazy For Cats]

10 hours ago, Altamira said:

Check out Norwegian’s policy by comparison. We’ve never cruised with them before, but our first cruise after Covid is with them (in 3 weeks!) because of their no-exceptions, for any reason ,100% vaccination requirement, for passengers and crew, plus the mandatory antigen test (at their expense) at the dock prior to embarkation, plus the incentive to get tested within 96 hours prior to sail date to qualify for NCL assistance with expenses (hotels and transportation) should your dockside test be positive. We would have made bookings with HAL, had their policy been comparable because we know HAL and we don’t know NCL.

We are doing like you.  We are cruising with NCL because we find their protocols more reasonable.  We have never sailed with them before.