Is Royal Caribbean building any small ships?

[ONECRUISER]

1 hour ago, latebuyer said:

Glad to see this thread is still active! I still hope to see some small ships built. I’m trying out princess but it also seems they are skeptical about princess building small ships too. I wonder if the cruise companies are looking at each other to see what others are doing. Maybe they prefer to be secret about it for competitive reasons.

What all is on new ships is a Secret, Building the Ships, Nope! The Companies usually pretty good about sharing size, though Icon was not. Everything said smaller then Oasis Class, instead even larger. Earliest I remember was about Voyager when they told us onboard Royal Ship in 1995 about it coming out in 1998. Then Ship Builders/workers post Pics all the time, making it even harder keep a secret. 

[FamilyCruiserUK]

I would imagine royal would be looking at the profit margin of the ships. 

Do smaller ships make enough profit for Royal? 

Do they offer the best return for the cost to build and run?

Can they use the same business model of the larger ships, seas days and rhe odd stop at the private island?

 

IMO i dont think smaller ships will be in Royals future plans. The cost to build and run port heavy low passengers sub 3K is becoming more specialised type of cruse which royal dosnt seem to be interested in. For Royal the ship is the destination with lots of passengers spending lots onboard. Whilst there continues to be a market for this type of cruise out of predominantly florida royal will keep the big ship cash cows. 

[ONECRUISER]

11 minutes ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

I would imagine royal would be looking at the profit margin of the ships. 

Do smaller ships make enough profit for Royal? 

Do they offer the best return for the cost to build and run?

Can they use the same business model of the larger ships, seas days and rhe odd stop at the private island?

 

IMO i dont think smaller ships will be in Royals future plans. The cost to build and run port heavy low passengers sub 3K is becoming more specialised type of cruse which royal dosnt seem to be interested in. For Royal the ship is the destination with lots of passengers spending lots onboard. Whilst there continues to be a market for this type of cruise out of predominantly florida royal will keep the big ship cash cows. 

Few Decades ago Vision and then Radiance Classes   considered some first Mega Sized Cruise Ships. Now small

[smokeybandit]

3 hours ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

The cost to build and run port heavy low passengers sub 3K is becoming more specialised type of cruse which royal dosnt seem to be interested in.

I doubt they build a sub 3k class of ship, either. But I definitely think they'll target something in the Voyager/Freedom class size.

[lovesthebeach2]

On 12/20/2023 at 8:09 AM, twangster said:

 

If they open more stations maybe, but driving to MCO airport and paying MCO parking rates to take a train makes Brightline kinda pointless for anyone outside of Orlando or the immediate vicinity.  

We’ve taken Amtrak to FLL once going down and once coming back. Both were for TAs which we didn’t want to leave our car there for more than a month. We picked it up at Winter Haven (we live in central Fl).

 

We feel the same as you, we’re 45 min south of MCO, seems counterproductive to drive north to pick up a train to go south. For the time it takes to drive up there, wait for the train, etc….we could be halfway to FLL .

[Baltodave]

Rumor is that there will be a new "Discovery" class ship.  Not sure if small enough to fit under the bridges in Baltimore or the bridge in Tampa.  In addtion to those cities, there are some places in Europe (e.g. Montenegro) that can't handle large Mega-Ships.

[latebuyer]

If one of the cruise ship companies chose to build small ships wouldn’t it give them a competitive advantage over the others?

[Saab4444]

3 hours ago, latebuyer said:

If one of the cruise ship companies chose to build small ships wouldn’t it give them a competitive advantage over the others?

There are still many smaller ships around, older and newer once, just not from the big US brands…

[smokeybandit]

TUI, Cunard, Disney, Norwegian, and Celebrity all have several new ships coming out the next two years that are smaller than Quantum and even Freedom class ships.

 

Meanwhile only a couple ships (MSC and Disney) coming out that (barely) go past 200k GT.

 

So really RC is alone in the super mega ship arena.

Edited December 22, 2023 by smokeybandit

[Charles4515]

7 hours ago, latebuyer said:

If one of the cruise ship companies chose to build small ships wouldn’t it give them a competitive advantage over the others?

Other cruise lines are building smaller ships. I think Royal Caribbean has deliberately placed itself as the cruise line of super sized ships and made that their niche to always have the largest cruise ship. For smaller ships they can have them in the Celebrity fleet.

[latebuyer]

Thanks. I didn't know that.That is good to know.Even norwegian! Wow! I didn't belive princess was building small ships either? Just to add its disapointing as probably norwegian is the only affordable cruise line i could cruise on 

Edited December 22, 2023 by latebuyer

[Saab4444]

First of all people should have kind of a similar definition for a small or smaller cruise ship. For sure this is not all below 200k GT just because a few monsters have this size.
 

No ship over 100k GT and 300m lengths can be called small. All new Norwegian, TUI, Cunard, Princess and Celebrity ships are in the range of 110k-160k GT wich still make them large ships that are far too big for many ports in World. Saga, Viking and the luxury brands like Explora, Regent and Silversea have built smaller ships (still not small between 40k and 70k GT) in the past years. Only Hapag Lloyd, Havila and other expedition brands have built really small cruise ships below 20k GT.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Saab4444

[Saab4444]

Just now, Saab4444 said:

First of all people should have kind of a similar definition for a small or smaller cruise ship. For sure this is not all below 200k GT just because a few monsters have this size.
 

No ship over 100k GT and 300m lengths can be called small. All new Norwegian, TUI, Cunard, Princess and Celebrity ships are in the range of 110k-160k GT wich still make them large ships that are far too big for many ports in World. Saga, Viking and the luxury brands like Explora, Regent and Silversea have built smaller ships (still not small between 40k and 70k GT) in the past years. Only Hapag Lloyd, Havila and other expedition brands have built really small cruise ships below 20k GT.

 

[Saab4444]

16 hours ago, latebuyer said:

Thanks. I didn't know that.That is good to know.Even norwegian! Wow! I didn't belive princess was building small ships either? Just to add its disapointing as probably norwegian is the only affordable cruise line i could cruise on 

By no means Sun Princess and Norwegian Prima are small ships…

[latebuyer]

Could the big ahips go through panama canal?

[Mike07]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:04 AM, latebuyer said:

Could the big ahips go through panama canal?

 

I think the Oasis class ships could make it through the canal (I could be wrong though). It would be a very tight, but not impossible, fit on the new canal. But, I think the Bridge of the Americas is too low, even at low tide, for the Oasis class.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Mike07 said:

 

I think the Oasis class ships could make it through the canal (I could be wrong though). It would be a very tight, but not impossible, fit on the new canal. But, I think the Bridge of the Americas is too low, even at low tide, for the Oasis class.

Not only is the Bridge of the Americas too short, but the Oasis won't fit, beam-wise, in the new locks.  While her beam, at the waterline is narrow enough, the typical problem with these ships that have the "fixed" lifeboat davits (where the boat hangs over the side of the ship) is that those would have to be removed, and transferred on another ship through the canal.  Because the boats are taken off, there can be no passengers onboard.  A few cruise ships "in ballast" (no pax) have transited this way, without lifeboats installed.  Even if the ship could fit in the locks with the boats installed, the canal does not allow this due to the potential to damage the boats from contacting the lock walls when filling/emptying the lock.

[RobInMN]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not only is the Bridge of the Americas too short, but the Oasis won't fit, beam-wise, in the new locks.  While her beam, at the waterline is narrow enough, the typical problem with these ships that have the "fixed" lifeboat davits (where the boat hangs over the side of the ship) is that those would have to be removed, and transferred on another ship through the canal.  Because the boats are taken off, there can be no passengers onboard.  A few cruise ships "in ballast" (no pax) have transited this way, without lifeboats installed.  Even if the ship could fit in the locks with the boats installed, the canal does not allow this due to the potential to damage the boats from contacting the lock walls when filling/emptying the lock.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the point you are getting at with regard to the davits is that one of the requirements is that you can't have anything hanging over the vertical line of the hull or something? At least up to a certain height above the waterline. I'm sure you can give the technical specifications. If you'll not that on the Radiance class, which is a Panamax, the lifeboats and davits are completely within the hull and nothing is hanging over (below the bridge wings). So it might not even be just the davit and lifeboats, but doesn't Deck 5 and 6 (and any other higher deck that is below the requirement) break the rule just from the way they stick out over the hull?

Voyager class doesn't have decks sticking out, and possibly not the davits, but the lifeboats themselves partially stick out.

On Quantum class, while the lifeboats and davits are well within the confines of the deck, the deck itself (deck 5) sticks out far beyond that vertical hull line.

So none of these ships could ever go through the Panama Canal?

Norwegian Bliss is the current largest cruise ship to go through the Panama Canal. The lifeboats and davits appear to be fully contained within the hull lines and it does not appear that anything sticks out beyond them (at least not below the bridge wings). And apparently it just fits under the Bridge of the Americas at low tide. I think I finally found a reference saying that Bliss is 60m above the waterline and BoA is billed as having a clearance of 61.3m.

 

 

[chengkp75]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:34 PM, RobInMN said:

So none of these ships could ever go through the Panama Canal?

Yes, basically anything that would protrude beyond the beam of the ship at the waterline, up to a height that is less than the height of the lock wall when entering it at the "lowered" level (in other words, anything that could rub against the lock wall while filling/emptying the lock) precludes the ship from using the locks.  I haven't studied the ships of RCI's classes that closely to know what would be allowed and what wouldn't.  Definitely, outboard lifeboats is one disqualifier.  I haven't gone through the new locks, so not sure if they use inflatable rubber fenders or not (or might use, if available and needed), but those may allow the "bump" decks to go through if they don't protrude too far.

 

But, I'm not saying those ships could "never" go through the canal, just not with passengers onboard.

[DragonOfTheSeas]

We went through the old canal several years ago aboard the Celebrity Millennium. The day before the transit the removed all of the light fixtures that came out from the side of the ship.  It was a very tight fit.

[icsys]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:27 PM, firefly333 said:

I think I'm in the I'll believe it when I see it category. I think the large ships make so much money, I can't imagine them making a smaller ship where they can charge enough to make it worth it for royalcaribbean.  Maybe celebrity. 

 

On 12/19/2023 at 7:09 AM, Saab4444 said:

It‘s not all about US and Florida ports. They need smaller ships for other regions in the World if they want to remain a global cruise  operator.

 

The large ships may make lots of money but if their destinations continue to be limited their revenue will dry up.

 

The constant drive to go 'bigger' is sure to have a negative impact at some point...

There are many places now restricting cruise ships due to overtourism. These floating megaships have too many passengers which would cause overcrowding.

 

Barcelona, Venice, and Marseille are among the cities that have already taken measures.

Santorini has also tightened restrictions on cruise companies. We've been there when there have been four voyager-size ships in port and the streets were crazy busy.

 

Protests in Norway may have an impact there too.

 

[zebra36]

As long as they can fill the mega ships sailing out of US ports my guess is they will not venture into a smaller class as long as they can sail current smaller class of ships into European ports.

[Hoopster95]

If anyone wishes to see what "smaller" ships need to charge their customers in order to make the same profit margins as what Royal is making (let's perhaps call it a cruise industry average), take a look at what Oceania, Azamara and SilverSea charge. Are you willing to pay that? If you want Royal to build a small ship, that is what you will have to pay. I am 100% certain no one on this forum wants that. And the funny thing is with some current pricing on Utopia and Icon, today I can sail on a much superior luxury line with the best of everything on it much cheaper when you include internet, dining, beverages, etc.

 

The only reason why Royal still has their smaller ships is because they are fully paid for and any revenue produced on them is profit. Royal is 100% only about profit and the bottom line. The second the smaller ships do not make money, they are gone. They will keep small ships until they make no sense to keep (ie. like an old car with 250,000 miles that has been paid off for years, you keep putting gas in it and changing the oil but when the engine blows up you do not replace the engine, you simply scrap it and buy a new car). The technical issues of extra drydocks amongst many other factors just complicate their life span.  

 

Like many have said in previous posts/pages, Royal's target market is definitely the young family (mom & dad in the 30s and 40s with a couple of kids), and they want those kids to build up C&A points so when they are 25-35 years of age in the year 2040, they will not look at any other cruise line .... they will pay $20,000 for an inside cabin on the "Gargantuan of the Seas" because they are hooked on Royal Caribbean, going to 6 private fake islands and paying $5000 for a Cabana for 6 hours. That is exactly what has happened with families who's kids sailed in the year 2000 on Voyager.... today they are adults with kids bringing their families on Royal, not another cruise line, because of the C&A program. Royal's target market is not the mature cruiser wanting to travel the world, and definitely not the miserly cruiser who doesn't spend a dime on board.

[Hoopster95]

I sailed 33 days in Nov/Dec, 4 diff ships, 4 different "Captain's Corners"..... all 4 Captains mentioned that they heard of, but know nothing about Project Discovery other than what Pinnacles tell them and other rumours. I also asked them about asset depreciation and if ships like Voyager (24 years old and Oasis 15 years old already) have a fixed date where they are deemed to be "paid off" in Royal's accounting books, and two of the captains said there is in fact a date but they couldn't remember them. I feel Royal will not at all replace the smaller sized Vision or Radiance classes ever again. I also met a ton of families (30'ish year old mom & dad in the pool with kids) as each sailing was heavy with kids (other than Grandeur)..And surprisingly at least half the ships were first time cruisers (not in the C&A Top Tier numbers)

 

For the record, my cruises in 2023 were on Symphony, Harmony, Rhapsody, Jewel, Grandeur, Independence, Oasis and Odyssey... by a very VERY big margin, the best cruises were on Rhapsody and Grandeur, Jewel was 3rd... all three with great ports of call, the most amazing accessible and fun staff, excellent Crown lounges, not crowded public spaces, excellent Windjammers and great fellow cruisers whom I got to know as I saw them most everyday.  The least pleasant cruises were on all three Oasis Class ships (super crowded everywhere, connect with one person on day 1 you wont ever see them again the entire 7 days, boring itineraries, terrible Windjammer, kids stomping everywhere above my cabin, slamming doors, good luck getting into a hot tub with 20 kids in it with floatation devices swimming back and forth, 3 sailings in a row).

 

Just my 2 cents.

[alfaeric]

Technically, the Royal Caribbean Group is building smaller ships.  The Celebrity Edge class has ~3000 passengers.  So roughly Voyager class size.  

 

And Silverseas new ships are sub 1000 passengers.