Why cruise ships are so often struck with Norovirus

I have concluded why cruise ships are so often struck with Norovirus; and even more often in down economic times. Please share and comment on these thoughts to help change current regulations.....

 

- The cruise ship industry's current cancellation policy is 100% dis-incentivizing passengers from not boarding ships due to spreadable illnesses at the risk of 100% fare loss. Example: If I had the stomach virus today and was planning on boarding a cruise tomorrow - knowing these bugs typically last somewhere between 24 and 48 hours it is in my best financial interest to board the cruise and tough it out the next 24 hours. Alternatively I could be honest and tell the line(with doctor proof) that I have a active bug and reschedule the cruise but essentially this path will cost me my full $4000 fair if I didn't take insurance.

 

How ridiculous is this?!?! Thousands of people's cruises are being ruined all to often and I think the cruise lines are not helping the matter by having such firm cancellation policies in place regardless of doctor recommendation. Wouldn't it make more sense for the line to actually INCENT ill passengers from boarding the boat to avoid rapid wildfire like spread of transferable illnesses?

Edited February 15, 2014 by adamaugust28
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Personally I think you would have more luck reinstating free unlimited internet for suite passengers.:rolleyes:

 

Mike:)

You are neglecting the amount of money pax have paid to get to the port and return home. Then there is the vacation days that the pax worked out with their employers and the difficulty in rescheduling that very valuable vacation time. Some cannot reschedule that time anytime in the near future due to what they do (teachers come to mind along with others).

 

For the cruise lines to allow a pax to reschedule their cruise is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

You are neglecting the amount of money pax have paid to get to the port and return home. Then there is the vacation days that the pax worked out with their employers and the difficulty in rescheduling that very valuable vacation time. Some cannot reschedule that time anytime in the near future due to what they do (teachers come to mind along with others).

 

For the cruise lines to allow a pax to reschedule their cruise is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

 

I appreciate your reply but I respectfully disagree. Airline flights are refundable via a credit minus a small cancellation charge and most hotels are fully refundable up until night of check in. I understand teachers are limited(wife is a x-teacher) but that's luck of the draw for them. I think you can agree it shouldn't cost you$4k to admit illness. So you are saying you would go on ill if you thought u would quickly feel better because you are already in town and limited in vacation days?

Edited February 15, 2014 by adamaugust28
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People do get on ships sick. Even if they had insurance I believe they would still do this... Even though it would put a lot of passengers at risk...

 

This is another reason for having insurance.

 

If someone is sick and has insurance they can cancel and have the cost of the FARE refunded. So what's the problem?

Human nature is such that there are always going to be people who are going to sail sick. Even if a sick cruiser could get a credit for a future cruise (which I'm not sure if I agree with if it allows people to bypass purchasing insurance, but being able to get a free benefit), I think they may still sail sick. People may not be able to re-schedule their time off from work and may have other costs such as airfare and hotels that they can't recoup. They may also just be "all about me" and want to sail no matter what.

 

I like the idea and wish it could work, but I just don't think it's realistic.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Luvmyrotti

How much noro do you think gets dragged in by crew? When a ship has 600 cases, like the recent one, it seems to me that the bug comes from crew. Most probably someone working in the kitchen. So many cases in such a short amount of time points to some type of typhoid Mary.

People do get on ships sick. Even if they had insurance I believe they would still do this... Even though it would put a lot of passengers at risk...

 

This is another reason for having insurance.

 

If someone is sick and has insurance they can cancel and have the cost of the FARE refunded. So what's the problem?

 

Problem is if they are sick and DONT have insurance they are more likely to risk boarding to avoid full fare loss

I was discussing this with my boss at work today--since I had just booked another cruise. I think we hear about norovirus on cruises more today than we did in the past. Looking at the CDC website, it seems like noro outbreaks were more common than in recent years. The difference is that we're more aware of them because of media reports. For instance, there were a lot more norovirus outbreaks that met the CDC's reporting threshold in 2006 and 2007 than there have been in recent years.

How much noro do you think gets dragged in by crew? When a ship has 600 cases, like the recent one, it seems to me that the bug comes from crew. Most probably someone working in the kitchen. So many cases in such a short amount of time points to some type of typhoid Mary.

You are using the most recent instance on the RCL ship as an example but the facts don't support it. The most cases were reported in the first day or so of boarding the ship and after that, the cases decreased significantly every day. By the end of the cruise, there were only few new cases. Crew reported cases only after a couple of days. This info is from the CDC report. The incubation period is 24-48 hours so it can be concluded that passengers brought it onboard either knowingly or unknowningly, self-medicated, walked around the ship, and spread it around. I was amazed at ABC when they interviewed passengers who claimed they got sick within hours of boarding the ship. Yoo hoo! You brought it onboard and are announcing that to the world! If the crew already had Noro, the first cases probably wouldn't have occurred until after the first 24 hours plus cruise ships monitor crew closely.

I have concluded why cruise ships are so often struck with Norovirus; and even more often in down economic times. Please share and comment on these thoughts to help change current regulations.....

 

- The cruise ship industry's current cancellation policy is 100% dis-incentivizing passengers from not boarding ships due to spreadable illnesses at the risk of 100% fare loss. Example: If I had the stomach virus today and was planning on boarding a cruise tomorrow - knowing these bugs typically last somewhere between 24 and 48 hours it is in my best financial interest to board the cruise and tough it out the next 24 hours. Alternatively I could be honest and tell the line(with doctor proof) that I have a active bug and reschedule the cruise but essentially this path will cost me my full $4000 fair if I didn't take insurance.

 

How ridiculous is this?!?! Thousands of people's cruises are being ruined all to often and I think the cruise lines are not helping the matter by having such firm cancellation policies in place regardless of doctor recommendation. Wouldn't it make more sense for the line to actually INCENT ill passengers from boarding the boat to avoid rapid wildfire like spread of transferable illnesses?

 

The problem with your comment is you are only looking at this from the customers viewpoint. The cruise line has to answer to their stockholders and their goal is to sail with the ship full. They make their money from on board spending and making one exception will lead to others.

 

The other point to remember is that 21 million Americans get Noro every year while only a couple thousand get it on cruise ships.

One risk to the cruise lines would be the fact that passengers canceling at the last minute and getting refunds would invite a fair number of passengers falsely claiming illness to get the refund when they happened to have a change of plans.

 

I am curious: is it a fact that if a passenger does report symptoms, he is denied boarding - or is he quarantined on board until symptoms and infectiousness pass?

Why cruise ships are so often struck with Norovirus

 

Cruise ships are not struck with norovirus any more than schools, nursing homes, businesses, etc.

 

It is just that cruise lines must report an outbreak to the CDC when a small percentage (2%) of those on board have symptoms of noro. The other places are not.

 

Also, probably most passengers bringing noro onboard do not know they have contracted it and only discover it within 24 hours of boarding.

 

 

Airline flights are refundable via a credit minus a small cancellation charge

 

You have not tried to get a refund on the types of fares (not first class, not full-fare coach) that most people purchase these days.

 

First of all, the fare is not refundable but must be used within a year of original purchase. So if you purchased a fare in January for travel in October, you must use any value from it if you cancel before October by January.

 

Second is the charge for doing this is not longer "small." Most airlines now charge $200 to cancel a reservation. (Only Southwest does not have that charge.) For an international flight, the charge is now $300.

 

The last two times I needed to change a flight the fares originally had cost me $109 and $185. In the latter case, the airline wanted to charge me the $200 change fee plus an additional $300+ for the new reservation.

 

Obviously I was not going to pay over $500 to change a flight that only cost $185 in the first place. I threw away the $185 ticket and bought a new one for about that price on another airline.

I think the OP is oversimplifying the Noro issue. Noro has an incubation period ranging from about 24 to 72 hours. It is suspected that a majority of Noro victims pick up the virus during their travels from home to cruise ship...and this trip is generally no more then 48 hours for most folks. This means that the odds are that a Noro carrier will get on a cruise without even being aware they are infected. Then, within a day they will get sick...by which time they have already been shedding virus resulting in the infection of others.

 

Hank

I think the OP is oversimplifying the Noro issue. Noro has an incubation period ranging from about 24 to 72 hours. It is suspected that a majority of Noro victims pick up the virus during their travels from home to cruise ship...and this trip is generally no more then 48 hours for most folks. This means that the odds are that a Noro carrier will get on a cruise without even being aware they are infected. Then, within a day they will get sick...by which time they have already been shedding virus resulting in the infection of others.

 

Hank

 

 

Just what I was going to say.

 

And, most cases of NORO are not on cruise ships.

 

From the CDC:

Each year on average in the United States, norovirus—

•causes 19–21 million cases of acute gastroenteritis (inflammation of the stomach or intestines or both)

•leads to 1.7–1.9 million outpatient visits and 400,000 emergency department visits, primarily in young children

•contributes to about 56,000–71,000 hospitalizations and 570-800 deaths, mostly among young children and the elderly

 

You can get norovirus illness at any time during the year. But, it is most common in the winter. Also, there can be 50% more norovirus illness in years when there is a new strain of the virus going around.

 

 

As anyone can see that the amount of NORO cases on cruise ships is very very low. There are probably less then 5,000 and this is .00025%.

 

So, in conclusion, the OP is totally wrong about NORO on cruise ships being high.

Just what I was going to say.

 

And, most cases of NORO are not on cruise ships.

 

From the CDC:

Each year on average in the United States, norovirus—

•causes 19–21 million cases of acute gastroenteritis (inflammation of the stomach or intestines or both)

•leads to 1.7–1.9 million outpatient visits and 400,000 emergency department visits, primarily in young children

•contributes to about 56,000–71,000 hospitalizations and 570-800 deaths, mostly among young children and the elderly

 

You can get norovirus illness at any time during the year. But, it is most common in the winter. Also, there can be 50% more norovirus illness in years when there is a new strain of the virus going around.

 

As anyone can see that the amount of NORO cases on cruise ships is very very low. There are probably less then 5,000 and this is .00025%.

 

So, in conclusion, the OP is totally wrong about NORO on cruise ships being high.

 

Thanks for presenting REAL information instead of "the sky is falling" type of reporting by the OP. Virtually every school will have a norovirus outbreak EVERY year. But we never hear about those cases. It just isn't sensational news. But when it happens to a ship load of people expecting a luxury cruise vacation, the news media blows it out of proportion to gain higher ratings. Too bad there are so many gullible people who believe this nonsense.

Edited February 15, 2014 by SantaFeFan

This is what I do to avoid noro. Wash my hands in hot soapy water singing 2 choruses of Happy Birthday. I do this often when I'm around so many people in a closed in space.

One risk to the cruise lines would be the fact that passengers canceling at the last minute and getting refunds would invite a fair number of passengers falsely claiming illness to get the refund when they happened to have a change of plans.

 

I am curious: is it a fact that if a passenger does report symptoms, he is denied boarding - or is he quarantined on board until symptoms and infectiousness pass?

 

Yep, it is easy to get a doctor to write a note supporting the patient (or just typing one up oneself:eek:). I have yet to see a definitive answer on what happens if a passenger does report symptoms at boarding.

 

OP, people work sick, go shopping sick, fly sick, go out to movies sick. I don't see your suggestion having an impact on this because for many people it isn't just the money involved, it's the experience of being on a cruise. My kids' school has a noro outbreak once or twice a year, this isn't something that just happens on cruise ships.

 

General comment- hand washing with soap and water is one of the biggest things one can do to prevent catching noro.

How much noro do you think gets dragged in by crew? When a ship has 600 cases, like the recent one, it seems to me that the bug comes from crew. Most probably someone working in the kitchen. So many cases in such a short amount of time points to some type of typhoid Mary.

 

Very little. If you look at the details of the 9 reported outbreaks on ships in 2013 the percentage of passengers affected was significantly higher than the percentage of crew members.

 

I think the whole issue completely misrepresented in the press. Of the 9 reported cases in 2013 only 1505 passengers/crew were affected out of 26948 total passengers/crew on board. That's an overall infection rate of 0.055%

 

The recent RCL outbreak involving over 600 passengers was a fluke. Last year the most guests affected in any single incident was 322.

Thanks for presenting REAL information instead of "the sky is falling" type of reporting by the OP. Virtually every school will have a norovirus outbreak EVERY year. But we never hear about those cases. It just isn't sensational news. But when it happens to a ship load of people expecting a luxury cruise vacation, the news media blows it out of proportion to gain higher ratings. Too bad there are so many gullible people who believe this nonsense.

 

To add to that, following is an excerpt from a post I made from (yet) another thread on this subject today on this board as a reality check to noro and cruising:

 

There are 20 million annual reported noro cases in the US based out of a population of 315 million - or about 1 in 15 people.

 

Per CLIA (Cruise Lines International Association), there are over 21 million global cruisers annually. The total reported and confirmed outbreaks of noro on cruise ships in 2013 was 1,238 cases - or about 6 one thousandths of 1 % of the cruising population!

 

In other words an extremely low % risk on board any given ship compared to the total US cases occurring annually.

 

With those odds, I'd much prefer to take my chances cruising.

Edited February 15, 2014 by leaveitallbehind

I appreciate your reply but I respectfully disagree. Airline flights are refundable via a credit minus a small cancellation charge and most hotels are fully refundable up until night of check in. I understand teachers are limited(wife is a x-teacher) but that's luck of the draw for them. I think you can agree it shouldn't cost you$4k to admit illness. So you are saying you would go on ill if you thought u would quickly feel better because you are already in town and limited in vacation days?

 

I don't consider $250 and more a 'small' charge at all.. and most people will buy the uber cheap fares which have no leeway. not to mention to enormous PITA hassle of arranging said changes. I recall having to do that once when a very expensive trip from Baltimore to Tokyo had to be changed due to DH being denied his leave even after it had been approved. between the change fee and the new cost of the plane ticket I was out another almost $400. for larger families that need 3 and 4 or more seats? yeah good luck with that most days.

 

it all comes down to selfishness. a person wants what they want and they could care less about the impact they have on others. they are stubborn and ignore signs.. or just plain don't recognize the difference between Noro and bad sushi. it is the responsibility of the passenger to act ... well... responsibly and get travel insurance. if you are sick then you still get the entire cost refunded via TI. why should the cruise line have to bear the responsibility?

it all comes down to selfishness. a person wants what they want and they could care less about the impact they have on others. they are stubborn and ignore signs..

 

Nobody blowing out of both ends while going through checkin will make it onto the ship undetected.

 

It is the people who do not show any symptoms yet who will board the ship and likely infect others.

I think the whole issue completely misrepresented in the press. Of the 9 reported cases in 2013 only 1505 passengers/crew were affected out of 26948 total passengers/crew on board. That's an overall infection rate of 0.055%

 

 

Make that 5.5%

Yep, it is easy to get a doctor to write a note supporting the patient (or just typing one up oneself:eek:). I have yet to see a definitive answer on what happens if a passenger does report symptoms at boarding.

 

OP, people work sick, go shopping sick, fly sick, go out to movies sick. I don't see your suggestion having an impact on this because for many people it isn't just the money involved, it's the experience of being on a cruise. My kids' school has a noro outbreak once or twice a year, this isn't something that just happens on cruise ships.

 

General comment- hand washing with soap and water is one of the biggest things one can do to prevent catching noro.

 

So the bottom line is that people who get Noro probably have themselves to blame: they may not have washed their hands as often as they could have, and they have touched their hands to their faces after touching contaminated surfaces. Sure: they did not do it intentionally, but by failing to take precautions they significantly increased their risk.

I have concluded why cruise ships are so often struck with Norovirus; and even more often in down economic times. Please share and comment on these thoughts to help change current regulations.....

 

- The cruise ship industry's current cancellation policy is 100% dis-incentivizing passengers from not boarding ships due to spreadable illnesses at the risk of 100% fare loss. Example: If I had the stomach virus today and was planning on boarding a cruise tomorrow - knowing these bugs typically last somewhere between 24 and 48 hours it is in my best financial interest to board the cruise and tough it out the next 24 hours. Alternatively I could be honest and tell the line(with doctor proof) that I have a active bug and reschedule the cruise but essentially this path will cost me my full $4000 fair if I didn't take insurance.

 

How ridiculous is this?!?! Thousands of people's cruises are being ruined all to often and I think the cruise lines are not helping the matter by having such firm cancellation policies in place regardless of doctor recommendation. Wouldn't it make more sense for the line to actually INCENT ill passengers from boarding the boat to avoid rapid wildfire like spread of transferable illnesses?

 

There is only one flaw in your theory.

Most major cruise lines DO allow passengers to board and sail if they are having NLV symptoms. They are isolated for about 48 - 72 hours (depending on symptoms) and then finish their cruise.

The CDC estimates that approximately 60 passengers with NLV board EVERY cruise departing a US port. It is not the Black Plague. It is a simple virus - much like a cold or the flu.