Do you think they could do it?

Ship evacuation. That was one question I posed nightly this last cruise on the Grand. If a really disaster was to happen at sea, could the crew and passengers disembark in a timely manner? Popular subject. With the age of the cruiser rising, with more walkers and wheelchair bound patrons, could an evacuation ever be successful on such a grand scale? Throw in a little panic, a muster station nose count, chaos of the "event", personalities, languages, etc. This is stuff made for movies.

God forbid this was to ever happen, it makes for good discussion.:rolleyes:

As someone who is trained in crowd management control for large concerts and sporting events, I can tell you that it all depends on the crew's training and attitude.

If the crew panics, so will the passengers. If they stay calm, most passengers will as well.

It would take quite a disaster to cause a full evacuation.

Most incidents are very isolated and controllable, it's just a matter of moving people out of the area of danger to a safer place.

Ship evacuation. That was one question I posed nightly this last cruise on the Grand. If a really disaster was to happen at sea, could the crew and passengers disembark in a timely manner? Popular subject. With the age of the cruiser rising, with more walkers and wheelchair bound patrons, could an evacuation ever be successful on such a grand scale? Throw in a little panic, a muster station nose count, chaos of the "event", personalities, languages, etc. This is stuff made for movies.

God forbid this was to ever happen, it makes for good discussion.:rolleyes:

I have to say that I never really gave it much thought, but after reading the book about the fire and sinking of the Prinsendam back in 1980, I have been thinking about it. Especially now that we have a transatlantic booked. What if we had to abandon ship somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic?

:(

I have to say that I never really gave it much thought, but after reading the book about the fire and sinking of the Prinsendam back in 1980, I have been thinking about it. Especially now that we have a transatlantic booked. What if we had to abandon ship somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic?

:(

I can only prepare myself for an emergency but all of the worrying in the world will not change how other passengers & crew will react.

There are many "what if" things all around us & each of us have our own comfort level to decide what risks to take, and which to not take. Nothing is 100% safe & not everyone may survive any type of catastrophe.

Look at the mess on the Costa Concordia. Evacuation was a nightmare due to severe listing and half if the lifeboats were unusable.

Had that ship been 500-1000 yards further out there would have been mass casualties as in 100's-1000's.

I think a lot depends on the crew but also, I think it depends on the ship design. Several cruise lines do not have Muster or lifeboats on the same deck as large indoor public spaces so Muster has to be conducted on deck. I've attended quite a few of these "on deck" Musters and they've always been chaotic and uncomfortable, particularly in the rain or heat/humidity. I've never been able to hear instructions clearly in those conditions due either to a bull horn pointed in the other direction or a salt air corroded outdoor speaker. Once, on a ship like that, we had a fire onboard at about 2am. Passengers ran around not knowing what to do... some running to "their" lifeboat in night clothes and not much else. After a few minutes, we were instructed to stay in our cabins. The fire was minor but it pointed out to me the difficulty in communication or even instructions with such a ship configuration. Staying in our cabins was not mentioned at Muster.

IMHO, Princess does an outstanding job organizing and communicating instructions during Muster and in an emergency. Just read the eyewitness accounts during the Star Princess fire. It's clear where you go and what to do, and you're inside out of the elements. Every lounge/Muster area has a back door to Promenade deck and the life boats. While probably not perfect, comfort and communication are Princess's priority.

I hate to say it, but I have been to the muster drills, and watched many people struggle with simple instructions because of language difficulties, physical ailments or general disdain for the process. I was shocked at the number of people that struggled to actually put on their flotation device properly. I can only imagine what it would be like in an emergency.

Like a previous poster I have some background in managing a safety/security team in a crowded venue. My belief watching the crew and the passengers is that any attempt to actually abandon ship in a timely manner would be a disaster. I did not really worry about it that much because the likelihood of such a disaster is exceedingly small, but that belief only grew as I watched the drill.

What if we had to abandon ship somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic?

:(

While no system is perfect, considering differences in passengers and personnel, Princess Cruises appears to have its act together with a plan for mustering passengers, and for communicating an emergency. They hold drills during every cruise to make emergency responses rote, with crew members practicing and knowing what to do.

Your job is to listen carefully during muster drill, and in event of an emergency it is to act personally in a safe and sane manner, avoiding panic.

I like the idea that the able bodied passengers will be sent down the escape chutes where available. Although the videos of people using them look a little frightening I much prefer the speediness of getting off with a chute than lining up behind those folks with the physical ailments, language barriers etc. Would everyone get off? I really don't think so.

I like the idea that the able bodied passengers will be sent down the escape chutes where available. Although the videos of people using them look a little frightening I much prefer the speediness of getting off with a chute than lining up behind those folks with the physical ailments, language barriers etc. Would everyone get off? I really don't think so.

These chutes can be dangerous, even crew members can suffer broken limbs.

We, too, think Princess is more organised. We have been horrified by some muster drills where it's all jokes and people talking and not listening. On Independence last year we were herded onto the deck and it was bedlam, people chatting, laughing, jokes from those who should have been in charge. Goodness knows what would happen in a real incident.

Thankfully the chances of it happening are low, so we try not to think about it, although WE do pay attention and just hope those member of staff who think its their chance to do a comedy show actually know what they are doing in an emergency.

Lets just set a few facts straight, here.

Passenger muster has nothing to do with the lifeboats, in reality. What most cruisers don't understand is that the signal that they think of as "abandon ship" (more than six short blasts and one long blast), is in reality the signal for "fire and general emergency". This means that the passengers are to move to locations where they are known and can be accounted for. As Pam mentions, there are many cases, like the Star Princess, where passengers were mustered long before any thought of taking to the boats, if that thought even ever entered the Captain's mind. With passengers out of the danger areas, and accounted for, the crew can then more effectively deal with the emergency.

Many people are confused about the so-called 30 minute rule for ship evacuation. This does not mean that all the passengers must be evacuated within 30 minutes of the alarm sounding. This means that after muster is taken, and the Captain decides to get the passengers off, that the boats can be loaded and launched in 30 minutes. And remember, even if the passengers get off the ship in boats, this is still not "abandon ship", as the crew (minus the 2-3 assigned to each boat) are still at their emergency stations, and are not cleared to go to their raft stations until well after the passengers are clear, if at all.

Now, we come to the Concordia. The cause of the confusion was the failure of Schettino to call for passenger muster until nearly one hour after he knew the ship was flooding. The bridge was notified within minutes that more than two watertight compartments were flooding, and Schettino is heard even mentioning that if that is the case the ship cannot stay afloat, so at that point of time, at least, he should have called for muster. If done timely and early enough, then loading the boats can be done in an orderly fashion.

Now, as to the extreme listing of the ship. Up until the time the ship touched bottom at the point where she ended up grounded, the ship did not list more than 15* in either direction, well within the limits of launching the boats. It was because the ship was resting against the bottom on her starboard side that she listed over. Had the ship been farther from shore, she would have sunk completely, but would have gone down on a more even keel.

Facts. 23 of 26 lifeboats were successfully launched. That's way more than "half". While only 10% of liferafts were launched, these are designed for the crew, primarily, and these can only be launched once the lifeboats are clear of the areas. Based on the numbers given in the Italian government's report, the number of people who used the boats and rafts to get ashore meant that of the boats and rafts launched, they were at 80% capacity. This is a pretty good figure, given the delayed muster (really there was no muster, just an announcement to abandon ship), and the fact that the crew were told to abandon ship at the same time as the passengers, causing more confusion as to duties and crowding at the embarkation areas.

I will disagree with Pam about Princess' priority in muster station locations. The muster station locations are determined when the ship is designed, and were only moved indoors when ship design reduced the area on the promenade decks to the point where it wasn't feasible anymore to muster out there. This was done because the designers were trying to maximize internal space in the ship (revenue generation) while reducing non-revenue generating outdoor space. The decision really had nothing to do with passenger comfort. The IMO would prefer outdoor musters, but have agreed to the indoor ones given the ship designs.

Does Princess have the "Marine Evacuation Systems" (large, multiple liferafts equipped with evacuation chutes) for passengers? If so, this is news to me, and I'd be interested in hearing which ships and how many. It was my understanding that while these systems had been approved for shipboard use, that they were not allowed for passenger use. I know that many ships use these over the old davit launched rafts for crew.

Ship evacuation. That was one question I posed nightly this last cruise on the Grand. If a really disaster was to happen at sea, could the crew and passengers disembark in a timely manner? Popular subject. With the age of the cruiser rising, with more walkers and wheelchair bound patrons, could an evacuation ever be successful on such a grand scale? Throw in a little panic, a muster station nose count, chaos of the "event", personalities, languages, etc. This is stuff made for movies.

God forbid this was to ever happen, it makes for good discussion.:rolleyes:

When you posed this question every night on your cruise, was it to your fellow diners on a set table fixed sitting on the Grand? Was this topic really popular with the ageing cruisers as you suggest? Did everybody enjoy the cruise and have you re-booked?

Regards John

Lets just set a few facts straight, here.

 

Passenger muster has nothing to do with the lifeboats, in reality. What most cruisers don't understand is that the signal that they think of as "abandon ship" (more than six short blasts and one long blast), is in reality the signal for "fire and general emergency". This means that the passengers are to move to locations where they are known and can be accounted for. As Pam mentions, there are many cases, like the Star Princess, where passengers were mustered long before any thought of taking to the boats, if that thought even ever entered the Captain's mind. With passengers out of the danger areas, and accounted for, the crew can then more effectively deal with the emergency.

 

Many people are confused about the so-called 30 minute rule for ship evacuation. This does not mean that all the passengers must be evacuated within 30 minutes of the alarm sounding. This means that after muster is taken, and the Captain decides to get the passengers off, that the boats can be loaded and launched in 30 minutes. And remember, even if the passengers get off the ship in boats, this is still not "abandon ship", as the crew (minus the 2-3 assigned to each boat) are still at their emergency stations, and are not cleared to go to their raft stations until well after the passengers are clear, if at all.

 

Now, we come to the Concordia. The cause of the confusion was the failure of Schettino to call for passenger muster until nearly one hour after he knew the ship was flooding. The bridge was notified within minutes that more than two watertight compartments were flooding, and Schettino is heard even mentioning that if that is the case the ship cannot stay afloat, so at that point of time, at least, he should have called for muster. If done timely and early enough, then loading the boats can be done in an orderly fashion.

 

Now, as to the extreme listing of the ship. Up until the time the ship touched bottom at the point where she ended up grounded, the ship did not list more than 15* in either direction, well within the limits of launching the boats. It was because the ship was resting against the bottom on her starboard side that she listed over. Had the ship been farther from shore, she would have sunk completely, but would have gone down on a more even keel.

 

Facts. 23 of 26 lifeboats were successfully launched. That's way more than "half". While only 10% of liferafts were launched, these are designed for the crew, primarily, and these can only be launched once the lifeboats are clear of the areas. Based on the numbers given in the Italian government's report, the number of people who used the boats and rafts to get ashore meant that of the boats and rafts launched, they were at 80% capacity. This is a pretty good figure, given the delayed muster (really there was no muster, just an announcement to abandon ship), and the fact that the crew were told to abandon ship at the same time as the passengers, causing more confusion as to duties and crowding at the embarkation areas.

 

I will disagree with Pam about Princess' priority in muster station locations. The muster station locations are determined when the ship is designed, and were only moved indoors when ship design reduced the area on the promenade decks to the point where it wasn't feasible anymore to muster out there. This was done because the designers were trying to maximize internal space in the ship (revenue generation) while reducing non-revenue generating outdoor space. The decision really had nothing to do with passenger comfort. The IMO would prefer outdoor musters, but have agreed to the indoor ones given the ship designs.

 

Does Princess have the "Marine Evacuation Systems" (large, multiple liferafts equipped with evacuation chutes) for passengers? If so, this is news to me, and I'd be interested in hearing which ships and how many. It was my understanding that while these systems had been approved for shipboard use, that they were not allowed for passenger use. I know that many ships use these over the old davit launched rafts for crew.

Royal Princess has the marine evacuation system. It was mentioned during muster when i was on board in November. Im guessing that Regal also has it.

Royal Princess has the marine evacuation system. It was mentioned during muster when i was on board in November. Im guessing that Regal also has it.

Thanks. I hadn't seen where anyone had gone this way, but now looking at the photos, I see they only have 16 boats, or 2400 capacity, so the MES rafts must take the other 1200 passengers.

The chutes are not fun, and if you think you'd be uncomfortable in a lifeboat for any time at all, you would consider a boat to be an "owner's suite" compared to a liferaft. I've been in them at sea, not real fun. For those who remember the original water beds, which were just big water bags, riding in a raft is akin to sitting on one of these beds while an elephant does a dance routine on it. And you are shoulder to shoulder with your fellows.

Another factor regarding the load-out percentages from the Concordia, is that maritime law has not kept pace with modern society. Lifeboat capacity is based on a 75kg (165lb) person, and the space is 18" wide by 24" from the front of the knee to the back of the butt. Since most people's shoulders are wider than their butts, this means that alternate people have to lean forward or back to fit shoulders into the 18" width. So, while in an orderly loading of boats, crew would be having the passengers cram together, in the Concordia's situation there wasn't the time or ability to do so.

Thanks chengkp - it's nice to hear facts from someone in the industry.

I am someone who listens to the safety briefing carefully on airplanes and pays attention in muster drills. I have been known to shush people around me who are talking and joking during the muster drill. It always amazes me the number of people who pay no attention. What will they be like if there is a true emergency? DH and I have discussed what we will do in certain situations so that we are prepared mentally, as we think this will make us less likely to panic.

That said, we won't let the idea of a ship sinking or a plane crashing deter us from travelling. We travel and enjoy ourselves, but we do it with our eyes wide open.

I worry about all those people who were chatting during the muster drill what will they be like if a real emergency situation happened

One lady behind me yapped all the way through the directions

I asked her to be quiet so the rest of us that took the drill seriously could hear

that lasted a minute then she started again :eek:

It depends how long "timely" is. If you have 5 minutes, like the Estonia, then no. If you have 5 hours, like the Titanic, then yes.

A plane crashed and caught fire in Canada a few years back. Everyone was off in 2 minutes, even though only half the doors were usable. It can be done.

It depends how long "timely" is. If you have 5 minutes, like the Estonia, then no. If you have 5 hours, like the Titanic, then yes.

 

A plane crashed and caught fire in Canada a few years back. Everyone was off in 2 minutes, even though only half the doors were usable. It can be done.

This is why it is important to listen to the safety advice even if you have flown or sailed a thousand time before

I am amazed (well not really) at how many people are still playing with their phone or have their ear buds on when the safety briefing is going on :eek:

I saw a video a few years ago I wish I could find again. It was an experiment where people were given instructions on how to evacuate a school bus. They did a practice and everyone did really well. For the second go around they offered the first 10? people off the bus a cash prize. The second go around was pure chaos with people pushing and shoving to get that money.

I suspect that is what you could expect when people see their lives on the line.

chengkp

Going off topic but i see that you are a graduate of the MMA. My son is a junior and is interested in going there. In fact we will be there over spring break where he can shadow a cadet. Any advice or info you can share?

Thanks,

Debbie

cheeseman3 at comcast dot net

chengkp

 

Going off topic but i see that you are a graduate of the MMA. My son is a junior and is interested in going there. In fact we will be there over spring break where he can shadow a cadet. Any advice or info you can share?

 

Thanks,

Debbie

cheeseman3 at comcast dot net

What specifically are you looking for info on? I'll say that it's a great school, and a great education, and a leadership factory, as many grads have gone on to lead Fortune 500 companies.

Does Princess have the "Marine Evacuation Systems" (large, multiple liferafts equipped with evacuation chutes) for passengers? If so, this is news to me, and I'd be interested in hearing which ships and how many. It was my understanding that while these systems had been approved for shipboard use, that they were not allowed for passenger use. I know that many ships use these over the old davit launched rafts for crew.

I believe this was installed on most if not all Princess ships.

I agree its mentioned during Muster.

This is why it is important to listen to the safety advice even if you have flown or sailed a thousand time before

 

I am amazed (well not really) at how many people are still playing with their phone or have their ear buds on when the safety briefing is going on :eek:

And what lengths some go through to skip muster. :(

Some of the greatest horror stories at sea, e.g.: the Concordia and earlier sinking of the Andrea Doria, involve a complete or partial abandonment of the passengers by the Captain and / or crew members. Fortunately, I think that most ships today have dedicated crews, who take SOLAS (Safety of Life at Sea) very seriously -- and insist that their passengers do, as well. Personally, I feel much safer on a ship at sea than I do in any airplane!

We also have been amazed at how many people do not take safety drills seriously. We just chalk it up to "these are the people who will be too busy doing what ever to save themselves".

In an actual emergency there will be those of us who know what to do and will probably be ok and there will be those who won't and their families will most likely be the ones to sue!