Out of control dog on the Amsterdam

[serendipity1499]

Originally Posted by Ocean Dancer

serendipity1499, in this case, I believe I am correct to say that the owner is not blind...........being a moot point.

 

The dog was seen pooping outside the elevator, as someone said, and did not tell the crew but walked away. If true in this case, she should have picked it up as she appeared able to do so. She was wheeling the dog around in a stroller and acted superior to everyone. You or I would have picked it up, disability or not. If this dog was a service dog at one time, it has been ruined. Will your friend know if service dogs have to be requalified every year or so?

 

 

 

 

Ocean Dancer I did not quote you? I was questioning a post written by Beagle & Tarpeian Rock..

 

Don't understand why you are answering me.. I'm only asking how they would expect a Blind Person to pick up after a Service Dog & there is no question about a horse being boarded on a HALship! Please read the two posts I am questioning..

 

 

Serendipity, my oringinal post and your reply are above, sorry I do not understand how to double hi light multiple posts.

I am quite sure I am able to post my thoughts to whom ever I want. You WERE talking about a blind person and what the rules were regarding the clean up. As this person is Not blind, I felt that this thread did not have to go down any more trails then it already has. I also never mentioned a horse, what do you mean to me about that?

 

I did mention chickens many paged back to lighten up the thread, which worked for awhile.

 

I do not know if I should be offended by your post as CC rules say I may post my thoughts...........which was a moot point in this thread. I too also did not know that one COULD only POST to quoted comments.:confused:

 

Ocean Dancer I never said anything about a horse to you & of course you can answer any post you want, but I specifically asked Beagel & Tarpian Rock how would they expect a Blind person to pick up after a dog..& if you read their posts one of them, believe it was Tarpian which asked how HAL would handle a service horse..But since you quoted me you completely confused me too as I was never talking about the dog on the Amsterdam..

Oh, you can respond to any post you wish. Someone apparently was having a bad day and chose to take it out on you, me, and Tarpeian Rock.

Beagle that is completely not true..I was not having a bad day & was not trying to take it out on you I asked a legitimate question & also went on to say that I was e-mailing my friends who are service puppy raisers.. Now though I seem to be having a bad day because you are twisting my words..;):)

 

Also I quoted the part of the ADA which states

 

Service Animals

 

Quote

 

The Department of Justice published revised final regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) for title II (State and local government services) and title III (public accommodations and commercial facilities) on September 15, 2010, in the Federal Register. These requirements, or rules, clarify and refine issues that have arisen over the past 20 years and contain new, and updated, requirements, including the 2010 Standards for Accessible Design (2010 Standards).

Overview

 

This publication provides guidance on the term “service animal” and the service animal provisions in the Department’s new regulations.

 

Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA.

A service animal is a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability.

Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go.

How “Service Animal” Is Defined

 

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

Unquote Believe that comfort animals such as Horses come under a different part of the ADA law & Common Carriers do not have to board them if they are not crated & under complete control..

 

Cruzin Terri, to my knowledge the ADA specifically PROHIBITS requiring documentation for service dogs. The owner can be asked two questions: Is this a service animal for a disability? What tasks is the animal trained to perform? That's it.

 

Now I'm commenting on the above which is only partially correct.. The ADA does not prohibit a common Carrier such as Airlines or HAL from requiring documentation for a service dog! However the Common Carrier is not permitted to ask what the Handlers (persons) disability is..Yes they can ask if the dog is a service animal & what tasks it performs..

 

That really, really needs to change. People who legitimately need service animals should have no problem providing some acceptable ID for them, and the law needs to be changed to establish just what that is. Scammers just need to go away. It's getting out of control.

 

JB&JLG74, thank you for your excellent, objective post.

 

In order to get the Justice Dept. to plug the loopholes in the ADA law, maybe we should start a petition & go to our Congressmen about these people who scam the system & the ADA rules...IMO more of us should call these scammers down for cheating the system instead of just letting it go & complaining about them..

 

Several Months ago, I saw a lady let her two cute mini. poodles defecate on the lawn of one of our major clubs in town, as I was leaving.. I went over to her & gave her a doggy pick up bag & asked her to pick up after her dogs.. She took the bag but was annoyed that she had to walk across the parking lot to dispose of the full bag..:rolleyes:

 

Someone told me I took a chance as the lady could have turned on me & I could have been harmed.. Guess I took a big chance, but would do it again if it was necessary..:eek:

Edited December 9, 2014 by serendipity1499

[bcummin]

I guess it would be easy to say it didn't bother me if:

I hadn't seen the dog sitting at the Lido tables

I hadn't seen the dog defecating in public places and the owner walking away

I hadn't heard the dog barking during shows or generally being a pest

I hadn't seen the pet owner acting like she was entitled

etc. etc. etc.

It would bother me a lot, but maybe I'm wrong to expect better after paying for an expensive cruise. :rolleyes:

 

The above post #231 was the earliest eye-witness verification that I found in this thread for the dog poop incidents that were questioned.

Anyone who sailed on the Grand Pacific & Far East Voyage and crossed paths with the dog woman really appreciates the attention that this thread has generated.

I add my thanks to JB&JLG74 and the others who posted so many details of how the situation deteriorated after we disembarked in Hong Kong.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all !

 

Barbara

[Ocean Dancer]

I hope that made you feel better.........and have a better day tomorrow.

[Wakepatrol]

Look who I spotted in the Lido

[doublebzz]

Look who I spotted in the Lido

 

I'd like to know how you got a photo of my brother in law.

[Ocean Dancer]

Thanks for the laugh!! At least he is following the dress code!!:)

[Tricia724]

This has been a very informative article on many levels. I thought I knew what a "service animal" is, but after reading and rereading the ADA postings, I am dismayed at how ambiguous the description really is. For example:

 

"Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA." (Emphasis added by me)

 

This statement merely gives some examples but the "performing other duties" leaves the door open for interpretation....or misinterpretation....as the case may be. What concerns me most is the reference to a dog that is "trained" without any restriction or clarification about the training itself. One of the postings stated that the dog woman on board supposedly said that she trained the dog herself. So now dogs that are "home schooled" are protected under this Act, too?

 

In addition, no one is permitted to question the dog's training, qualifications, or social abilities or object in any way, so all a person has to do is declare their dog a "trained" service animal that alerts him/her to (fill in the blank) and airlines, hotels, restaurants, ships, etc. are obligated to allow the animal free rein.

 

Wow. Just wow. I actually was foolish enough to think that real service animals had documented training and that cruiselines had the right to ask for proof.

 

With this law written the way it is, it sounds like there could be many more episodes similar to this one in our cruising future.

[Cruising-along]

The above post #231 was the earliest eye-witness verification that I found in this thread for the dog poop incidents that were questioned.

Anyone who sailed on the Grand Pacific & Far East Voyage and crossed paths with the dog woman really appreciates the attention that this thread has generated.

I add my thanks to JB&JLG74 and the others who posted so many details of how the situation deteriorated after we disembarked in Hong Kong.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all !

 

Barbara

 

Very sorry for the confusion. As I explained to Serendipity in post 249, I was not on the cruise and was only stating my opinion how I would feel IF I had seen some of the things that had been reported (it would bother me a lot).

 

I also want to thank JB&JLG74 for reporting back to us! We have all been waiting for passenger feedback. :)

[BeagleOne]

Miniature horses can be considered SERVICE ANIMALS under the ADA (not comfort animals), but the business can refuse to accommodate them if the service horse is not housetrained, not under the control of the owner, not able to be accommodated by the business, or if the horse will affect the safe operation of the business.

 

Under the ADA the ONLY questions that are allowed are the two I mentioned, and the owner may NOT be required to show written proof or certification that the dog is indeed a service dog.

 

I do agree that the scammers need to be called out on their bad behavior. It makes it much harder for people who really DO need a service dog.

[pms4104]

Ruth

 

I do think that in this case the ship was being told by Seattle exactly and specifically what they could and could not do with this situation.

 

I have sailed with Captain Eversen, HD Henk M. and GRM Crystal M and cannot imagine that they were happy with the state of affairs on their ship.

 

I doubt if HAL would ever leave this type of situation, which just screams "law suit", to the discretion of the ship officers. No doubt HAL/CCL lawyers are very, very aware of the problems involved. HAL is apparently being sued in respect to the service animal issue and the cruise lines would be waiting with baited breathe to see what the parameters are for the future.

 

I feel sorry for the ships' crew. A no win situation.

If indeed Seattle was dictating to ship staff what could/could not be done about the dog lady, one would hope that onboard management would have reinforced HAL policies with their staff, particularly to the front counter people we were seen caring for/walking the dog.

 

Their behavior was as reprehensible as that of the dog person. A little on the job mentoring and course correction was called for.

Edited December 9, 2014 by pms4104

[6701wall]

Ruth

 

I do think that in this case the ship was being told by Seattle exactly and specifically what they could and could not do with this situation.

 

I have sailed with Captain Eversen, HD Henk M. and GRM Crystal M and cannot imagine that they were happy with the state of affairs on their ship.

 

I doubt if HAL would ever leave this type of situation, which just screams "law suit", to the discretion of the ship officers. No doubt HAL/CCL lawyers are very, very aware of the problems involved. HAL is apparently being sued in respect to the service animal issue and the cruise lines would be waiting with baited breathe to see what the parameters are for the future.

 

I feel sorry for the ships' crew. A no win situation.

 

I cannot completely agree with you in regards to Guest Relations Manager Crystal, after seeing the dog lady walk away from the poop in the Lido we requested a meeting with the hotel manager and instead had a meeting with Crystal. In this meeting after we said that there were health issues here with the dog pooping in the Lido and something should be done, Crystal said to us well there was a very nice gentleman from YOUR floor (we were on the 7th) who while dining in the La Fontaine dining room didn't make it to the washroom and had an accident in his pants and on the floor, she then said to me what should we have done then...put HIM off at the next port? I was so shocked that she was equating a paying guest to an untrained dog I was at a loss for words. After that meeting I lost a lot of respect for Holland America and for the rest of the cruise could not even look at her when she would pass by.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 6701wall

[Mary Ellen]

I cannot completely agree with you in regards to Guest Relations Manager Crystal, after seeing the dog lady walk away from the poop in the Lido we requested a meeting with the hotel manager and instead had a meeting with Crystal. In this meeting after we said that there were health issues here with the dog pooping in the Lido and something should be done, Crystal said to us well there was a very nice gentleman from YOUR floor (we were on the 7th) who while dining in the La Fontaine dining room didn't make it to the washroom and had an accident in his pants and on the floor, she then said to me what should we have done then...put HIM off at the next port? I was so shocked that she was equating a paying guest to an untrained dog I was at a loss for words. After that meeting I lost a lot of respect for Holland America and for the rest of the cruise could not even look at her when she would pass by.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[icat2000]

I cannot completely agree with you in regards to Guest Relations Manager Crystal, after seeing the dog lady walk away from the poop in the Lido we requested a meeting with the hotel manager and instead had a meeting with Crystal. In this meeting after we said that there were health issues here with the dog pooping in the Lido and something should be done, Crystal said to us well there was a very nice gentleman from YOUR floor (we were on the 7th) who while dining in the La Fontaine dining room didn't make it to the washroom and had an accident in his pants and on the floor, she then said to me what should we have done then...put HIM off at the next port? I was so shocked that she was equating a paying guest to an untrained dog I was at a loss for words. After that meeting I lost a lot of respect for Holland America and for the rest of the cruise could not even look at her when she would pass by.

The poor passenger was probably mortified that they had an accident and doesn't need a gossiping HAL representative discussing the incident with other passengers. Completely unprofessional of her.

Edited December 9, 2014 by icat2000

[6701wall]

Okay, so now I'm interested in reading about this "glove lady" (I'm just interested in quirky characters). I've done a search, but I can't find anything. Can anyone direct me to this episode of oddity?

 

The glove lady wore either white gloves or orange dish washing gloves, she was the reason for a portion of the cruise prior to Sydney that the Lido was roped off and we all had to be served. She would go along and taste things and throw them back in the bins ie salad, fruit, deserts, appetizers. One day they had to clear everything and put out new as they caught her doing it. She would get numerous napkins and spread them all over the table prior to putting her many plates of food down on the table. She would spend time at the aft pool of which she would walk around the pool backwards stopping every now and then to sit on her orange dishwashing gloves and sideways (foot crossed over foot) around the railings as well as wear her woolen cap down over her face. She got on in Hong Kong or Singapore (can't remember which) where she had just gotten off of a Princess ship, not sure if she was put off or if her cruise ended. My husband asked one night if she was going to do the dishes and she went off a little on him about how her dish washing days were done lol. She had a flight booked from Sydney but cancelled it and the Australian authorities won't let you off the ship if you have no way forward, I heard the ship was going to pay for her plane ticket but not sure if that was true or not. They tried to contact her emergency contact but could get no response and the authorities came on board in Sydney and removed her, I am assuming it was to a hospital.

[TiogaCruiser]

Regarding the Glove Lady: how very sad.

 

Between the World Cruise and this one, Amsterdam has really had the characters this year.

[6701wall]

Regarding the Glove Lady: how very sad.

 

Between the World Cruise and this one, Amsterdam has really had the characters this year.

We all thought it was very sad, for the first little bit it was amusing and then it was sad as she was on her own with no one to look out for her

[1of4]

I cannot completely agree with you in regards to Guest Relations Manager Crystal, after seeing the dog lady walk away from the poop in the Lido we requested a meeting with the hotel manager and instead had a meeting with Crystal. In this meeting after we said that there were health issues here with the dog pooping in the Lido and something should be done, Crystal said to us well there was a very nice gentleman from YOUR floor (we were on the 7th) who while dining in the La Fontaine dining room didn't make it to the washroom and had an accident in his pants and on the floor, she then said to me what should we have done then...put HIM off at the next port? I was so shocked that she was equating a paying guest to an untrained dog I was at a loss for words. After that meeting I lost a lot of respect for Holland America and for the rest of the cruise could not even look at her when she would pass by.

 

This is completely offensive and totally unacceptable. I think I would ask to have a meeting with the captain after that as not only is she trying to equate the two incidents, she is identifying both the gender and location of the passenger. Thank goodness she stopped short of naming him.

[busybiddy]

I read this today and it surprised me how easily thus woman got her dog designated as a service animal.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/travel/confessions-of-a-flier-with-a-fake-emotional-104275694199.html?hp=1

Edited December 9, 2014 by busybiddy

[serendipity1499]

I read this today and it surprised me how easily thus woman got her dog designated as a service animal.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/travel/confessions-of-a-flier-with-a-fake-emotional-104275694199.html?hp=1

Just for clarification, Emotional Support Animals & Therapy Dogs are NOT SERVICE DOGS!..Please do not confuse a "Service Animal" with an "Emotional Support Animal" They are not the same!

 

Quote

 

Americans with Disabilities Act

 

The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) allows people with disabilities to bring their service animals in public places.[10] However, the ADA only extends these protections to dogs that have been "individually trained" to "perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability," which is the definition of service animals under 28 C.F.R. § 36.104.[10] Since emotional support animals are typically not trained for an individual's specific disability and since emotional support animals might not be dogs, they do not receive the protections of the ADA.[10] A public place can therefore deny an emotional support animal admission. Unquote

 

This WEB site helps to clariy the ADA rule!

 

https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet

 

Complaints about misuse or scammers can be directed to:

 

Title II and Title III Complaints – These can be filed through private lawsuits in federal court or directed to the U.S. Department of Justice.

U.S. Department of Justice

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

Civil Rights Division

Disability Rights Section – NYA

Washington, DC 20530

http://www.ada.gov

800-514-0301 (v)

800-514-0383 (TTY)

 

Edited December 9, 2014 by serendipity1499

[Scrapnana]

Just for clarification, Emotional Support Animals & Therapy Dogs are NOT SERVICE DOGS!..Please do not confuse a "Service Animal" with an "Emotional Support Animal" They are not the same!

 

Quote

 

Americans with Disabilities Act

 

The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) allows people with disabilities to bring their service animals in public places.[10] However, the ADA only extends these protections to dogs that have been "individually trained" to "perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability," which is the definition of service animals under 28 C.F.R. § 36.104.[10] Since emotional support animals are typically not trained for an individual's specific disability and since emotional support animals might not be dogs, they do not receive the protections of the ADA.[10] A public place can therefore deny an emotional support animal admission. Unquote

 

This WEB site helps to clariy the ADA rule!

 

https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet

 

True, but many businesses can't or won't distinguish between them. Makes me sick to read articles like busybiddy posted where people purposely exploit this and are proud of it!

Edited December 9, 2014 by Scrapnana

[serendipity1499]

True, but many businesses can't or won't distinguish between them. Makes me sick to read articles like busybiddy posted where people purposely exploit this and are proud of it!

 

Completely agree with you on this! It makes me sick too! That's mainly because Businesses in the U.S. fear law suites, which IMO is so wrong in our Society..

 

But, if enough people confront the scammers & report them to the Federal Govt. maybe something will be done to the phonies & scammers..

 

I'm amazed that the Press has not gotten wind of this thread..

Edited December 9, 2014 by serendipity1499

[SilvertoGold]

I cannot completely agree with you in regards to Guest Relations Manager Crystal, after seeing the dog lady walk away from the poop in the Lido we requested a meeting with the hotel manager and instead had a meeting with Crystal. In this meeting after we said that there were health issues here with the dog pooping in the Lido and something should be done, Crystal said to us well there was a very nice gentleman from YOUR floor (we were on the 7th) who while dining in the La Fontaine dining room didn't make it to the washroom and had an accident in his pants and on the floor, she then said to me what should we have done then...put HIM off at the next port? I was so shocked that she was equating a paying guest to an untrained dog I was at a loss for words. After that meeting I lost a lot of respect for Holland America and for the rest of the cruise could not even look at her when she would pass by.

 

This is very bad.

I can see why you ended up with the GRM instead of the HD: sharing the duty of trying to handle this miserable situation with the dog.

 

Her "explanation" shows, I suspect, how desperate the crew was in handling this. Any excuse is better than nothing.

 

I expect a lot better from HAL, on the ship and off.

Edited December 9, 2014 by SilvertoGold

[SilvertoGold]

If indeed Seattle was dictating to ship staff what could/could not be done about the dog lady, one would hope that onboard management would have reinforced HAL policies with their staff, particularly to the front counter people we were seen caring for/walking the dog.

 

Yes, you're right.

 

I was wondering if this lady knew someone high up on HAL. The Front Office people walking the dog report astounded me. This is not a pet??????? This is what the Front Office does?????

 

Seems this lady got a lot of leeway, a lot more than one would expect, even with the idea of being sued for discrimination hanging over Seattle.

[gwpr7]

Hi Arzz

I just got home from 78 days ,it was nice meeting you all.

What you are reading about the dog lady is true.I had so many complaints from your fellow cruisers from cruise critic that I had a meeting with Hank .I was told they are aware of the problems and they are doing their best with a bad situation.He had a meeting with her the day following but to no avail I guess as the behaviour continued. I am sure they were worried about legalities. Anyhow the cruise was great and I think most of us just go with the flow and enjoy ourselves in spite of a few bad apples , cheers Guy

 

 

On shore the woman was in a wheelchair. No idea as to why or what their issues were. She said that the dog had its own immigration papers.

 

As to why the dog was not taken ashore, or the real issues - I am as clueless as anyone else. I was just repeating what I was told and what I saw - which was certainly not everything. I was on board for my own vacation, not to watch a service dog.

 

I will say, however, that every time I have been on board a ship with a service animal I have heard a lot of buzz from folks who doubt the authenticity of the animal. I heard no buzz, however, on any negative behaviors from this animal during the time I was on board. That does not guarantee that those behaviors did not occur. I just have no knowledge of them.

[Christine Frances]

What would happen if this lady brought her dog into Canada? Don't think ADA would apply. Here it is governed by each province (but pretty standard across Canada)

 

Just curious. Does the ADA only apply in the US?

 

This is from my Province, British Columbia

 

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/guideanimal/q-a.htm

Edited December 10, 2014 by Christine Frances