Unexpected Expenses

[brillohead]

I don't think it will drop down that much in terms of service... people still expect a cruise to consist of certain things.  At least I hope not!!!

[sail7seas]

1 hour ago, ducklite said:

I see the MDR as becoming an ala carte restaurant and the buffets being the only included food on some lines.  

 

I also see new builds with several pools where there will be a very small pool designated as "free" and the rest either for the use of suite passengers or for a fee.  

 

I am seeing many ships now restricting the WiFi plans to a single or maybe two devices, and that is a revenue source they can continue to increase as people become more and more desperate to stay connected.

 

The (using your word) "steerage" passengers are the ones that the cruise lines will be working harder and harder to pry more revenue out of, because the fares they are paying do not create a sustainable business model. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually go the route of many time shares for all but suite level cabins--a midweek trash and towel swap out and no other housekeeping.  If someone wants additional housekeeping, they'll be charged for it.  They could probably decrease the number of cabin stewards by 30-40 on a 3000 passenger ship.  That's more space that could be used for passenger cabins, and less crew members they need to feed and spend the money on legal documentation and airfare for.

 

 

 

Interestng post.

  I   do  not necessarily agree with all of  it    but I think you presented subjects  for interesting  conversation  .  Pros and cons............

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ducklite]

1 hour ago, brillohead said:

I don't think it will drop down that much in terms of service... people still expect a cruise to consist of certain things.  At least I hope not!!!

There will become a line between raising base fares and opening up new revenue streams by attaching costs to things once included, and raising fares but keep the inclusions relatively intact.  I don't see a feasible way of not going one way or the other and keeping investors happy.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

At one time taking a cruise was only for the very wealthy. Eventually it arrived as the lowest cost vacation vs theme parks or other vacation get aways. By far the best bang for the buck. The simplicity and going to different ports to explore. Just imagine if you flew to each one. Everything you experience for that dollar spend is wonderful. Picking the correct ship for whatever you want to do with or with our children. The choices are almost endless. What more could anyone want? 

[oskarNZ]

Interesting discussion.  I think/hope it’s some years before the cruise industry changes completely, but yes, I agree the changes will continue to drip in there where and when they can.   

 

While lines do want to keep their base fares low, I would argue the base prices have still increased noticeably since when I first cruised about 13 years ago.  As have the cost of specialty restaurants, drink packages, and perhaps most importantly - as have the number of passengers to each square metre of space.  If an older ship is still deemed spacious, it often gets cabins added to it during a refurb.  

 

Cruising is a big industry and they wouldn’t continue to build these ships if they were going broke.  But their marketing people will also be aware that most passengers have a tipping point and that careful planning around how to source extra revenue is needed if they’re to avoid putting customers off.  

 

The things I mentioned above haven’t yet put me off, but as you probably guessed from this post, the feeling of being constantly nickle and dimed onboard would.  My tipping point also involves suite areas that take up so much real estate, non-suite customers start to notice what they’re missing. (e.g. they can no longer look  out the front of the ship).  I have actually cancelled such a cruise before, as the glorious thing is there is enough competition (both within the cruise industry and outside of it), that the customer has choice.  

 

 

[oskarNZ]

2 hours ago, twodaywonder said:

At one time taking a cruise was only for the very wealthy. Eventually it arrived as the lowest cost vacation vs theme parks or other vacation get aways. By far the best bang for the buck. The simplicity and going to different ports to explore. Just imagine if you flew to each one. Everything you experience for that dollar spend is wonderful. Picking the correct ship for whatever you want to do with or with our children. The choices are almost endless. What more could anyone want? 

 

Regarding theme parks, anyone who is or was a Disney fan (Disney World in particular) will know just how much their pricing has changed over the years.  Basically if you want the lower crowds, longer park hours, or special holiday events of years ago, Disney has found a way that you can pay for them.  Meanwhile, tickets and food prices continue to rise, spaces are more and more crowded, and regular park hours are shorter.  Just how bad it is a debate for another website, but I mention it as I can see the comparisons to what’s being discussed here.

 

My family once loved Disney, but our trip last December was our tipping point. As much as we still had fun, it felt like Mickey wasn’t waving at us anymore, he was putting his hand out asking for money.  

 

We decided it would be our last trip there and that’s okay.  Disney will continue to make money and we’ll continue to have great vacations - they’ll just be elsewhere.  If the day comes that I have to say the same about cruising - so be it - I just hope it’s many years away.  

[JimCroce]

43 minutes ago, oskarNZ said:

 

Regarding theme parks, anyone who is or was a Disney fan (Disney World in particular) will know just how much their pricing has changed over the years.  Basically if you want the lower crowds, longer park hours, or special holiday events of years ago, Disney has found a way that you can pay for them.  Meanwhile, tickets and food prices continue to rise, spaces are more and more crowded, and regular park hours are shorter.  Just how bad it is a debate for another website, but I mention it as I can see the comparisons to what’s being discussed here.

 

My family once loved Disney, but our trip last December was our tipping point. As much as we still had fun, it felt like Mickey wasn’t waving at us anymore, he was putting his hand out asking for money.  

 

We decided it would be our last trip there and that’s okay.  Disney will continue to make money and we’ll continue to have great vacations - they’ll just be elsewhere.  If the day comes that I have to say the same about cruising - so be it - I just hope it’s many years away.  

Welcome to the American Dream, Mickey is no exception in the cash grab world of Disney.

[chipmaster]

I think a cruise like any vacation one needs to do their research.  I feel a cruise is similar to an all inclusive resort, promise lots of activities and food/drink all inclusive, but there are "buts" as long as you go in knowing then simply budgeting them eyes wide open then you are okay.    

 

No question you look at RCCL commercials on TV and see the shows, dining, rockclimbing, ice skating, bowling, etc. etc.    Funny as I can do them and fine dining in a staycation, but it just isn't the same.  

 

People complain but when you look at the price you get and value then it isn't such a bad deal, they do need to make their money, the companies that is. 

[brillohead]

11 hours ago, ducklite said:

There will become a line between raising base fares and opening up new revenue streams by attaching costs to things once included, and raising fares but keep the inclusions relatively intact.  I don't see a feasible way of not going one way or the other and keeping investors happy.

I don't know about the other lines, but Royal Caribbean is making money hand over fist already.  Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I don't see them going too much further with the cash-grab, as they're already starting to hit that wall.

 

The pricing on specialty restaurants has gone up so much that the restaurants sit half-empty much of the time, whereas they were jam-packed at a lower price point. Now they are constantly having to drum up business for the specialty restaurants, offering sales and BOGO offers to people on board.  They need to figure out if they want to sell to 100 people at $20/person or 30 people at $40/person. 

 

And they need to figure out what market they want... do they want to be mainstream or do they want to be high end?  I'll spend $20/entree for a dinner in a restaurant at home, but I won't spend $40/entree at home unless it's a super special occasion, so why should I do it on a cruise? 

People are complaining about the high cost of cabanas on the new Coco Cay private island, and I agree they are outrageously priced -- often $1000/day or more for a wooden shack and a waiter (who you're still expected to tip, he's not really included in the cost of the cabana).  As far as I'm concerned, as long as some people are willing to pay that much -- keep charging that much!  There are plenty of loungers and umbrellas available for free, so it's not detracting from my experience at all if some people are in cabanas. 

 

And by charging so much extra money for something that costs them nothing (once the construction price of the shack is paid for, all further revenue is pure profit), the company is keeping investors happy while keeping base prices lower for those of us who are too poor or too smart to spend $1000 for a cabana for a day.  

[geoherb]

When we first started taking cruises in 1989, soft drinks were free in the dining room with meals. I'm not sure when they started charging for them since there were several years in the mid-1990s that we did not take a cruise. A big disappointment for us was when Princess started charging for specialty coffees in the dining room. That happened between a cruise we took to Alaska in August 2003 and a Caribbean cruise we took in December that year. Fortunately I had read about the change on Cruise Critic, so it wasn't a surprise.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

13 hours ago, geoherb said:

When we first started taking cruises in 1989, soft drinks were free in the dining room with meals. I'm not sure when they started charging for them since there were several years in the mid-1990s that we did not take a cruise. A big disappointment for us was when Princess started charging for specialty coffees in the dining room. That happened between a cruise we took to Alaska in August 2003 and a Caribbean cruise we took in December that year. Fortunately I had read about the change on Cruise Critic, so it wasn't a surprise.

We started in 95 and yes the sodas and coffee were free in the MDR Including the NY Strip steak. I do not even recall if they had specialty restaurants back then. I do not remember them. The food in the MDR was awesome. No more. I remember one person at the table ate three helpings of calamari. Another two steaks. 

[Heidi13]

32 minutes ago, twodaywonder said:

We started in 95 and yes the sodas and coffee were free in the MDR Including the NY Strip steak. I do not even recall if they had specialty restaurants back then. I do not remember them. The food in the MDR was awesome. No more. I remember one person at the table ate three helpings of calamari. Another two steaks. 

Totally depends on the cruise line, as Cunarders have had them for years. Even QE2 in 1969 had the Grill Room, available to 1st Class pax.

[SRF]

On 8/10/2019 at 3:09 PM, oskarNZ said:

While lines do want to keep their base fares low, I would argue the base prices have still increased noticeably since when I first cruised about 13 years ago.  As have the cost of specialty restaurants, drink packages, and perhaps most importantly - as have the number of passengers to each square metre of space.  If an older ship is still deemed spacious, it often gets cabins added to it during a refurb.  

 

I would like to see your figures.  Every comparison with previous costs, that I have seen, has shown that the price for cruising has gone DOWN, when you correct for inflation.

 

What lines have added cabins during a refurb and taken away public space?  I know that one Royal Carib ship, they actually lengthened the ship to add cabins, but did not add additional public space.

[SRF]

The real question is, when will someone try the truly low cost model to see if it works.

 

The flying public has shown that low fares trump any level of service.  

 

So some cruise line will have to start, maybe buying an older ship, and trying the model.   I know there are some low cost cruises, but not sure how low they go.  I am thinking of the one that is typically the "free" cruise for listening to a time share sales pitch.

 

Hmm, maybe I should develop a business plan and try to sell it to some investment types.  Cruise fare is ONLY the cruise.  Pay for EVERYTHING.  All meals.  All drinks, maybe free water.  But some airlines are now charging for water.  Lounger by the pool, pay for it.  Entertainment, pay for a ticket.  Might work.  People are stupid enough.

[mjkacmom]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

 

I would like to see your figures.  Every comparison with previous costs, that I have seen, has shown that the price for cruising has gone DOWN, when you correct for inflation.

 

What lines have added cabins during a refurb and taken away public space?  I know that one Royal Carib ship, they actually lengthened the ship to add cabins, but did not add additional public space.

If you compare cruise prices to several decades ago, it’s much cheaper today. However, we took our first cruise 13 years ago, and prices have definitely increased, fares, drinks, specialty dining, DSC... NCL has definitely removed public space on some ships and put in more suites.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

3 hours ago, SRF said:

 

I would like to see your figures.  Every comparison with previous costs, that I have seen, has shown that the price for cruising has gone DOWN, when you correct for inflation.

 

What lines have added cabins during a refurb and taken away public space?  I know that one Royal Carib ship, they actually lengthened the ship to add cabins, but did not add additional public space.

Celebrity removed public space to add cabins.

[oskarNZ]

6 hours ago, SRF said:

 

I would like to see your figures.  Every comparison with previous costs, that I have seen, has shown that the price for cruising has gone DOWN, when you correct for inflation.

 

What lines have added cabins during a refurb and taken away public space?  I know that one Royal Carib ship, they actually lengthened the ship to add cabins, but did not add additional public space.

I just did a google of “adding cabins during refurb” and the first two posts were about Princess and Carnival.  A poster above mentioned NCL and like the previous poster, I know for a fact they have done it to Celebrity ships and are continuing to Edge-ify the Solstice class by adding suites.  Dig and you shall find.  

 

Regarding prices, I agree that during the early days of cruising, Cruising was only for the very rich, but in the last 13 years I have only seen them go up and the really impressive specials become fewer and further between.

 

My first cruise was 7 days for 500pound p/p (we were living in London at the time) and it included return flights which usually would have been close to 150-200 on their own because it was during school holidays.

 

My second ocean cruise was NZ$150 pp ($US100) for a 4 night cruise, again during school holidays.  Granted that was a mega special during an unconventional sale, but I doubt I’ll see a special like that again.

 

I did a Disney cruise approx 5 years ago and it was affordable for my family.  Their prices have skyrocketed beyond even being able to comprehend them anymore.  

 

Regarding my one and only river cruise, China have opened their doors a lot more to the world since then and it’s not as cheap as it once was.

 

I also remember a time when specialty restaurants were about $20.  Now many are charging $50+   

 

I know there will be examples to the contrary, but I would still argue that the overall picture is of an increase.  

Edited August 14, 2019 by oskarNZ

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

32 minutes ago, oskarNZ said:

I just did a google of “adding cabins during refurb” and the first two posts were about Princess and Carnival.  A poster above mentioned NCL and like the previous poster, I know for a fact they have done it to Celebrity ships and are continuing to Edge-ify the Solstice class by adding suites.  Dig and you shall find.  

 

Regarding prices, I agree that during the early days of cruising, Cruising was only for the very rich, but in the last 13 years I have only seen them go up and the really impressive specials become fewer and further between.

 

My first cruise was 7 days for 500pound p/p (we were living in London at the time) and it included return flights which usually would have been close to 150-200 on their own because it was during school holidays.

 

My second ocean cruise was NZ$150 pp ($US100) for a 4 night cruise, again during school holidays.  Granted that was a mega special during an unconventional sale, but I doubt I’ll see a special like that again.

 

I did a Disney cruise approx 5 years ago and it was affordable for my family.  Their prices have skyrocketed beyond even being able to comprehend them anymore.  

 

Regarding my one and only river cruise, China have opened their doors a lot more to the world since then and it’s not as cheap as it once was.

 

I also remember a time when specialty restaurants were about $20.  Now many are charging $50+   

 

I know there will be examples to the contrary, but I would still argue that the overall picture is of an increase.  

I agree. Still, a cruise is the best bang for the buck for a vacation.

[OzKiwiJJ]

11 hours ago, SRF said:

 

I would like to see your figures.  Every comparison with previous costs, that I have seen, has shown that the price for cruising has gone DOWN, when you correct for inflation.

 

We only started cruising in 2014 but I've noticed a definite increase in fares in the last year, for cruises from mid-this year onwards. I've also noticed a decrease in quality, particularly food, on Princess and Celebrity, and service in some areas. Drinks prices have increased as well. 

[Hlitner]

The OP likely understands that if they truly want an All Inclusive cruise it does exist.  And Yes, it is going to cost a lot more money then a bare bones mass market cruise in a normal cabin.  The OP could book a Regent cruise and not spend an extra dollar on their cruise...which will give them decent cuisine, plenty of deck chairs, included excursions, etc.  If they don't need all that they could book Seabourn or Silverseas where they do not have to spend extra money onboard and just about everything is included.  They could even go on some of the mass market lines such as NCL and MSC, pay for the Haven Suites or the Yacht Club and not spend much extra money onboard the ship.

 

But lets be clear.  A majority of cruisers put their budget ahead of their "wants" and prefer not to pay the big bucks to have all those extras included.  Many cruisers do prefer to pay a lower price for their cruise and then make their own decisions on the extras....rather then paying for all the extras they may not use.  We just came off a Seabourn cruise which was essentially all inclusive (except for shore excursions).  I could drink real French Champagne and munch on caviar to my heart's content without paying an extra penny.  But a fellow cruiser who does not enjoy adult beverages or caviar might settle for a coke and some potato chips and feel they are subsidizing my champagne/caviar.....and they would be correct.  It is all about choices.  You make your choice and you live with it.  If you are unhappy with your own choice you do have other options.

 

Hank

[oskarNZ]

8 hours ago, twodaywonder said:

I agree. Still, a cruise is the best bang for the buck for a vacation.

I love National Parks and these usually provide me with my best value vacations. 

However, I agree that for all a cruise offers, most mainstream lines are still very good value for money.  Plus it’s such a relaxing, enjoyable vacation choice.  

 

 

[erdoran]

8 hours ago, Hlitner said:

The OP likely understands that if they truly want an All Inclusive cruise it does exist.  And Yes, it is going to cost a lot more money then a bare bones mass market cruise in a normal cabin.  The OP could book a Regent cruise and not spend an extra dollar on their cruise...which will give them decent cuisine, plenty of deck chairs, included excursions, etc.  If they don't need all that they could book Seabourn or Silverseas where they do not have to spend extra money onboard and just about everything is included.  They could even go on some of the mass market lines such as NCL and MSC, pay for the Haven Suites or the Yacht Club and not spend much extra money onboard the ship.

 

But lets be clear.  A majority of cruisers put their budget ahead of their "wants" and prefer not to pay the big bucks to have all those extras included.  Many cruisers do prefer to pay a lower price for their cruise and then make their own decisions on the extras....rather then paying for all the extras they may not use.  We just came off a Seabourn cruise which was essentially all inclusive (except for shore excursions).  I could drink real French Champagne and munch on caviar to my heart's content without paying an extra penny.  But a fellow cruiser who does not enjoy adult beverages or caviar might settle for a coke and some potato chips and feel they are subsidizing my champagne/caviar.....and they would be correct.  It is all about choices.  You make your choice and you live with it.  If you are unhappy with your own choice you do have other options.

 

Hank

you’ve articulated that nicely.  I think at issue are expectations - peoples’ visions of a cruise is that everything, other than excursions, booze and shopping are included, so it’s a surprise when there are so many optional upcharges.  But, like others have said, these upcharges ARE optional.  You can cruise for a week on a mainstream cruise line and have a $0 bill, other than the “optional” daily service charge (which kinda isn’t optional, but it IS a surprise to some regardless).  You can have 3 or more meals a day, free-flowing coffee & non-soda, non-booze beverages, be entertained every night, use the gym, go for a swim, relax in the sun, have your room cleaned....really not bad.

 

For me the DSC was a surprise first time in but not after (long time ago, crummy TA).  Beyond that, perhaps the constant subtle and not so subtle pressure to spend, spend, spend...but you get that at any tourist destination, and it can be tuned out.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, erdoran said:

you’ve articulated that nicely.  I think at issue are expectations - peoples’ visions of a cruise is that everything, other than excursions, booze and shopping are included, so it’s a surprise when there are so many optional upcharges.  But, like others have said, these upcharges ARE optional.  You can cruise for a week on a mainstream cruise line and have a $0 bill, other than the “optional” daily service charge (which kinda isn’t optional, but it IS a surprise to some regardless).  You can have 3 or more meals a day, free-flowing coffee & non-soda, non-booze beverages, be entertained every night, use the gym, go for a swim, relax in the sun, have your room cleaned....really not bad.

 

For me the DSC was a surprise first time in but not after (long time ago, crummy TA).  Beyond that, perhaps the constant subtle and not so subtle pressure to spend, spend, spend...but you get that at any tourist destination, and it can be tuned out.

You raised another terrific issue which is the constant (and sometimes subtle) pressure to "spend spend spend.  It has reached a very high level of sophistication on Princess where their heralded "Ocean Medallion" program is popular with most cruisers who see it as a neat program, but subtly it is all about getting cruisers to spend more money through targeted marketing.  We have "teased" online that Princess will have the data to know even how long each passenger spends in their bathroom.  But more importantly they will know when a passenger walks into a boutique, where they browse, what they drink, etc.  The irony of cruising is that if you move into the world of the upscale luxury lines there is much less pressure to spend.  On Seabourn we had one 2 minute announcement per day (from the Captain) with nothing about sales.  There were no tables set-up with T-shirts for sale, gold by the inch, etc.  In fact on Seabourn they do not even have a photographer but only have a single videographer who ultimately provides every cruiser with a thumb drive video file of their cruise....at zero extra cost.  But if we go on a line like Celebrity they will work hard at marketing ridiculously priced drink packages, photo packages, BINGO, the Casino, activities for extra charges, alternative restaurants (that can cost over $50 per person),  overpriced excursions, etc.

 

While some of us can cruise on a mass market line and not spend a penny in the shops, sales, photos, Bingo, casino, etc....not everyone is that disciplined.   Paying $60 for a simple walking tour within shouting distance of a ship may seem like a silly way to throw away money, but there are folks who happily pay for that kind of excursion.  In Civitavecchia folks will pay the cruise line over $100 for a simple bus transfer into Rome while others (like moi) will simply take the train (faster then the bus transfer) for less then $15.  But the port lecturer on the ship will not tell the folks about the train option (in sufficient detail) and will even plant negative ideas such as, "if you go on your own make sure you do not miss the ship."

 

Hank

[SRF]

Bottom line, things cost money.  You can pay a higher initial price and get more included, or you can pay less, and have the option and pressure to spend more.

 

YOU choose.

 

If you don't like the upsell and for pay options, then sail a cruise line that does not do that.  But then, don't complain about the higher price.

 

If you compare, a mass market line, in a suite, with drink and dining packages and excursions and such, is about the same price as a luxury line with everything included.

 

TANSTAAFL

 

For non-Heinlein fans - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

[lifes-a-beach]

On 8/6/2019 at 7:14 PM, oskarNZ said:

I’m not wanting to start a debate

 

“Johnny, tell her what she’s won!”  “Well Jack, She’s won the Cruise Critic Least Effective Statement Award!”    *audience applause*   “And the Least Likely Objective to Achieve on Cruise Critic Medallion!”   *more audience applause*

 

😂🤣