HAL's Poor Response to Corona Virus

[em-sk]

On 2/17/2020 at 7:48 AM, cruisemom42 said:

 

This is all outside my own area of expertise, so I will let folks far more expert than I provide the intel. I'm sure chengp75 was somewhat simplifying the process in his explanation -- perhaps he will chime in and clarify further.

 

I don't now but long ago I did software for these types of systems on commercial buildings in Canada and the US, so if ships are the same as buildings then what happens.....

 

There is an air handling unit that has a big fan pushing filtered air through the building air ducts at a certain temperature set point, usually a few degrees below room temperature.  It first tries to mix outside air and return air from the building to maintain that temperature.  Mixing air is the cheapest way of doing this, when it can't reach the set point it starts to use cooling or heating coils.   Code dictates a minimum percentage of outside air.  They override the duct setting to maximize outside or inside air.  Left along you would likely see maximum outside air when it cool but not cold outside and the least when it is very hot outside.    

 

Usually a separate control loop that regulates building pressure by exhausting excess air.  

 

[gatour]

1 hour ago, em-sk said:

 

I don't now but long ago I did software for these types of systems on commercial buildings in Canada and the US, so if ships are the same as buildings then what happens.....

 

There is an air handling unit that has a big fan pushing filtered air through the building air ducts at a certain temperature set point, usually a few degrees below room temperature.  It first tries to mix outside air and return air from the building to maintain that temperature.  Mixing air is the cheapest way of doing this, when it can't reach the set point it starts to use cooling or heating coils.   Code dictates a minimum percentage of outside air.  They override the duct setting to maximize outside or inside air.  Left along you would likely see maximum outside air when it cool but not cold outside and the least when it is very hot outside.    

 

Usually a separate control loop that regulates building pressure by exhausting excess air.  

 

He has already addressed this.  Here is a short version in another thread he posted.  There is a longer version.

 

 

chengkp75

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Posted February 7

  On 2/7/2020 at 2:44 PM, larrywizzit said:

Well.....There has to be some air exchange going on. But the point is being missed that this is the decision of the Japanese health authorities. They are the ones that have decided on this course and the cruise ship companies cannot legally do otherwise.

Yes, there is air exchange.  Fresh air is brought into the ship and supplied to the cabins, and the bathroom exhaust takes an equal amount of air back to the outside.  The air being controlled by the cabin thermostat controls air that is recirculated within that cabin.

[Brentwood Bay]

Just a thought.  If a passenger is suspected of Coronavirus infection and confined to their room (along with their partner I would hope), it would be reasonable to assume that they would use their balcony if available.  As the Coronavirus is transmissible through airborne means, such as coughing/sneezing, should passengers with adjacent balconies use them during the quarantine period?  I would think that it would be appropriate and prudent to at least warn neighbouring passengers of the adjacent threat.  In my experience passengers occupying cabins adjacent to quarantined passengers are usually not advised of the quarantine.

[*Miss G*]

9 minutes ago, Brentwood Bay said:

In my experience passengers occupying cabins adjacent to quarantined passengers are usually not advised of the quarantine.

 

They are probably restricted by privacy laws preventing that kind of information from being released.

[kazu]

14 minutes ago, Brentwood Bay said:

 I would think that it would be appropriate and prudent to at least warn neighbouring passengers of the adjacent threat.  In my experience passengers occupying cabins adjacent to quarantined passengers are usually not advised of the quarantine.

 

I agree with you on the warning.

 

Sadly my experience of not being advised mirrors yours.

 

When I was on the O Riviera, there was a huge Noro outbreak.  Our next door neighbour had it and was quarantined.  They were on their balcony all the time and we were unaware.  Because of the positioning of their cabin we did not walk by their cabin to access the stairs so I don’t know if there was anything on their door or not.

 

I was quite horrified when she told me after their release that we had not been advised.  Certainly the way the stewards were servicing the cabins would not have made anyone think there were precautions being taken.

 

2 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

They are probably restricted by privacy laws preventing that kind of information from being released.

 

I suspect you are right, but it may be time to change things or put a very flagrant quarantine sign on cabins so people are aware.  I’m not sure what the right answer is, but I think there needs to be a balancing act especially with this new virus.

[kazu]

14 minutes ago, Brentwood Bay said:

 I would think that it would be appropriate and prudent to at least warn neighbouring passengers of the adjacent threat.  In my experience passengers occupying cabins adjacent to quarantined passengers are usually not advised of the quarantine.

 

I agree with you on the warning.

 

Sadly my experience of not being advised mirrors yours.

 

When I was on the O Riviera, there was a huge Noro outbreak.  Our next door neighbour had it and was quarantined.  They were on their balcony all the time and we were unaware.  Because of the positioning of their cabin we did not walk by their cabin to access the stairs so I don’t know if there was anything on their door or not.

 

I was quite horrified when she told me after their release that we had not been advised.  Certainly the way the stewards were servicing the cabins would not have made anyone think there were precautions being taken.

 

2 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

They are probably restricted by privacy laws preventing that kind of information from being released.

 

I suspect you are right, but it may be time to change things or put a very flagrant quarantine sign on cabins so people are aware.  I’m not sure what the right answer is, but I think there needs to be a balancing act especially with this new virus.

[sail7seas]

On 1/30/2020 at 3:13 PM, ted144 said:

The reference might be to “cancel for any reason” insurance.  
 

There doesn’t seem to be any support for my position that HAL (or any cruise line) should be more flexible in a case like the present one. The 3-14-20 two week trip is called a China Adventure. When it’s totally changed, six weeks in advance, so that the trip bears no resemblance to the initial offering, it’s not the same as merely skipping a port or two on a journey.  

I do not understand the expectation HAL should give refunds because of  the change in itinerary.  HAL did not cancel ports, CHina did .   They have  closed ports to cruise ships  HAL cannot go to Hong Kong etc

d

Edited February 18, 2020 by sail7seas

[Hlitner]

21 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

I do not understand the expectation HAL should give refunds because of  the change in itinerary.  HAL did not cancel ports, CHina did .   They have  closed ports to cruise ships  HAL cannot go to Hong Kong etc

d

So if we follow your logic it means that if you book a 2 week cruise in Europe and HAL decides to put you on a 2 week cruise in the Caribbean you would have no complaint?   or, You book a 2 week cruise to Antarctica and a few days before you depart HAL tells you that you are going to get a Canada/NE itinerary.  By that thinking why would anyone even bothero to choose an itinerary?  Just book a cruise for a certain number of days and let the cruise line tell you, about 2 weeks in advance, where you are going.

 

But this Westy case is truly unusual.  In fact, HAL has been changing itineraries to Japan at a time when, so far, Japan has given no indication that they will even allow any ships to have access to their ports.  In a sense, HAL is running out of Asian ports....assuming that there are any left.  We do not envy the situation faced by HAL....but we also do not envy our own situation of not having a clue about the lack of HAL decision making with Westy Asian cruises in March and April.

 

 

 

Hank

[kazu]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

We do not envy the situation faced by HAL....but we also do not envy our own situation of not having a clue about the lack of HAL decision making with Westy Asian cruises in March and April.

 

I feel for everyone who have cruises booked in Asia in the upcoming months.

 

NCL pulled out completely until the end of December.  While that might be considered overly cautious, I think it was prudent.  At least the people booked on cruises know where they stand and can plan accordingly rather than wait cruise by cruise.  And the cruise line can move on and plan new itineraries.

HAL has posted on their FB page that the cruises are under consideration, thanked people for their patience and said they will announce shortly.

 

Just my personal opinion, but I think they would be wise to pull out for at least March if not the rest of the season.

Better to do that than another fiasco like they are having with the Westerdam and I am sure high costs as those passengers wait to go home.  If they do sail, who will want to go?  the virus right now shows no signs of being contained and it is highly unlikely Japan will let any ship dock - they have announced they will not.

[bennybear]

Agreed!  Celebrity decided days ago to bring Millennium back to North America.  Uncertainty is very difficult,  a decision needs to be made so everyone can move forward.

[Hlitner]

27 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

I feel for everyone who have cruises booked in Asia in the upcoming months.

 

NCL pulled out completely until the end of December.  While that might be considered overly cautious, I think it was prudent.  At least the people booked on cruises know where they stand and can plan accordingly rather than wait cruise by cruise.  And the cruise line can move on and plan new itineraries.

HAL has posted on their FB page that the cruises are under consideration, thanked people for their patience and said they will announce shortly.

 

Just my personal opinion, but I think they would be wise to pull out for at least March if not the rest of the season.

Better to do that than another fiasco like they are having with the Westerdam and I am sure high costs as those passengers wait to go home.  If they do sail, who will want to go?  the virus right now shows no signs of being contained and it is highly unlikely Japan will let any ship dock - they have announced they will not.

I don't fault HAL for waiting well into January, but once the situation worsened with the Diamond Princess and the pulled docking permission for the Westy, we do think they should have pulled the ship out of Asia.  If they do decide to cancel any more cruises in March  then it would make little sense for them to leave the ship somewhere in Asia hoping to do a cruise in April.  The ship is already scheduled to reposition to North America in late April.  There comes a time when one should cut their loses and run.

 

DW and I are not the type to panic and we actually would be fine going to Japan in April.  But going on a cruise that might not be able to dock anywhere does not make a lot of sense.  We also have reason to be concerned that Japan will choose to limit internal travel by closing up major tourist attractions and cancelling various Cherry Blossom related events.  We base this concern on the already cancelled Emperor's Birthday Celebration and much of the Tokyo Marathon.   In light of these recent actions it is hard to imagine that Japan will allow the Westy to call at Japan ports.  None of this is the fault of HAL, but they are simply caught up in this virus web just like we travelers.

 

Hank

[kazu]

7 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I don't fault HAL for waiting well into January, but once the situation worsened with the Diamond Princess and the pulled docking permission for the Westy, we do think they should have pulled the ship out of Asia.  If they do decide to cancel any more cruises in March  then it would make little sense for them to leave the ship somewhere in Asia hoping to do a cruise in April.  The ship is already scheduled to reposition to North America in late April.  There comes a time when one should cut their loses and run.

 

DW and I are not the type to panic and we actually would be fine going to Japan in April.  But going on a cruise that might not be able to dock anywhere does not make a lot of sense.  We also have reason to be concerned that Japan will choose to limit internal travel by closing up major tourist attractions and cancelling various Cherry Blossom related events.  We base this concern on the already cancelled Emperor's Birthday Celebration and much of the Tokyo Marathon.   In light of these recent actions it is hard to imagine that Japan will allow the Westy to call at Japan ports.  None of this is the fault of HAL, but they are simply caught up in this virus web just like we travelers.

 

Hank

 

 

I think your concerns are totally valid and agree.

It’s not HAL’s fault but they have to deal with the conundrum and rather than procrastinate it would be nice IMO if they made decisions for more than one cruise at a time.  It’s only fair to those booked.  JMO of course.

[rafinmd]

Isn't Westie due for a drydock in that area.  I would think they might want to stay close until that time, but Australia/New Zealand sounds like a good possibility.  Not sure about my initial assertion, I may be thinking of another ship.

 

Roy

[CJcruzer]

38 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

Isn't Westie due for a drydock in that area.  I would think they might want to stay close until that time, but Australia/New Zealand sounds like a good possibility.  Not sure about my initial assertion, I may be thinking of another ship.

 

Roy

 

 Westy had a drydock 04 January 2020 – 15 January 2020 

Edited February 19, 2020 by CJcruzer

[newtocruiseinblue]

[sail7seas]

HAL did not cancel all stops at ports in China.  China closed their ports as is their right.  HAL/ no cruise line  will be permitted in...IMO, that negates any possibility they should pay any reimbursement to   cruisers whose  cruise to  China will not happen any time  really soon.

 

 

sail.noordam@gmail.com

 

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

On 1/31/2020 at 6:49 PM, kazu said:

 

 

I am And yes, they are working with an infectious disease unit in Australia and China.  I didn’t hear about the U.S. part on the news in all honestly.  They have used SARS, MER and derivatives in their work.

 

 

I never said anyone had a vaccine today.  I specifically said they needed the live virus to test it.

Are you an infectious disease specialist?  If you are not, you don’t know when the vaccine will be developed.

 

I’ll just agree to disagree as that is not what I hear on the news and it was an interview with the physician.  He was hopeful that the vaccine would be produced much sooner than 12 months.  He does need the live virus though as I have said several times.  With it, they know.  If it works with the live virus, it will be MUCH sooner than 6 or 12 months.

 

My DH listened to the interview with me and knows quite a bit about this.  He was impressed and is hopeful.  

 

I highly doubt a man of his repute would risk sticking his neck out in a public interview if he didn’t have a certain level of confidence.  JMO.

 

Time will tell.

Any more  hopeful  reports  from same source?

 

 

Sure hope  so............  very soon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iancal]

I believe that HAL has been ‘a day late and a dollar short’ on all aspects of this issue.  My sympathy lies with the luckless cruisers, not with HAL.

[Jim9310]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:58 PM, rafinmd said:

Isn't Westie due for a drydock in that area.  I would think they might want to stay close until that time, but Australia/New Zealand sounds like a good possibility.  Not sure about my initial assertion, I may be thinking of another ship.

 

Roy

Perhaps thinking of Crystal Symphony which is scheduled to drydock on April 13 in Singapore and sail from Singapore April 23?

[sail7seas]

On 2/12/2020 at 11:08 AM, kazu said:

 

I am surprised at that, as well.

I think an offer has gone out for people who want to cancel to do so without penalty but so far...no cancellation?

 

 

Good that failure to 'snag'  ports is a non-issue at this point.

 

 

[sail7seas]

On 2/17/2020 at 10:48 AM, cruisemom42 said:

 

This is all outside my own area of expertise, so I will let folks far more expert than I provide the intel. I'm sure chengp75 was somewhat simplifying the process in his explanation -- perhaps he will chime in and clarify further.

 HAL i s part of the Carnival family of ships,  owned by

Carnival Corporation.

 

 

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

On 1/30/2020 at 3:41 PM, Seasick Sailor said:

 

Hi ted144, Are you looking to want to cancel your cruise? The itinerary change is a lovely one, even though there's no China adventure..

I believe my fellow posters are sympathetic to your concern, but many seasoned cruiser's are understanding of the fact that cruise lines at times need to change an itinerary and in this case I believe HAL did the right thing. However, personally, I would have wanted the cruise cancelled and refunded, due to my husband having a minor health issue.

What one person likes about  a specific itinerary, obviously  will not please everyone  given the current health emergency, cruise lines must be given  a  bit of lee  way and left to do  the best  t hey can, IMO.

I f a port is closed  to all visitors, what is a cruise line to do? No choice in  the  matter    How many   travelers would actually  continue with  travel plans  in the  Far  East now?

 

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

On 2/18/2020 at 2:28 PM, *Miss G* said:

 

They are probably restricted by privacy laws preventing that kind of information from being released.

 

 

Hopefully as neighbors,   they can speak with each other, either from one balcony to the other OR by telephone.   It would not  be offensive,  for them to  ask about  quarantine.

[sail7seas]

 I heard  there is a large number of confirmed cases in Italy.    it is presenting  as highly contagious.   Festivities  planned for Venice were cancelled in order to avoid large crowds being at risk of infection    

 

HOW did  case #1  come to be in Italy ...  any connection with Costa cruise line?  I'm not being a 'wise guy,'  I really am interested.

 

Anyone  planning to let their  date for final payment  coming due  for travel pass without completing their full payment  ?  

 

  Even Iran is reporting 'some'  cases of Corona Virus,

 

 

 

[Hlitner]

12 hours ago, sail7seas said:

 I heard  there is a large number of confirmed cases in Italy.    it is presenting  as highly contagious.   Festivities  planned for Venice were cancelled in order to avoid large crowds being at risk of infection    

 

HOW did  case #1  come to be in Italy ...  any connection with Costa cruise line?  I'm not being a 'wise guy,'  I really am interested.

 

Anyone  planning to let their  date for final payment  coming due  for travel pass without completing their full payment  ?  

 

  Even Iran is reporting 'some'  cases of Corona Virus,

 

 

 

Apparently the first Italy case was not connected to any cruise line.   The first 2 cases were brought in by  two Chinese tourists.  But the big cluster in the North was traced to an Italian who had been repatriated from Wuhan, China and later found to been carrying the virus.

 

Hank