Bahamas Ban US Residents

[HeddaGarbled]

I think it something even more fundamental than generational or leadership or personal attitude - something in the national psyche about which takes precedence: individual freedoms or the communal good. 

[zitsky]

USA seems to care about individual liberty which is why we can't get 100% mask compliance.

[lyndarra]

11 hours ago, TeeRick said:

I personally would like to believe that every adult individual regardless of age is totally responsible for themselves and their actions. No doubt leadership plays an important role for a lot of younger adult Americans just like us older folks. I think important to the ones who are connected and aware of others and of their impact on others.  There are many many younger Americans who are in that category although all are getting included in the backlash against their generation unfortunately.     But what type of leadership is most influential for the subset of young people in the US who go to bars without masks and hold coronavirus parties?  I am not sure that they pay attention to or are influenced much by political or religious or educational leadership.  They are just brought up to be selfish and self-centered I think. I have no other explanation for it.

I think you are right.

My inference was so many levels of government, federal, state, county, city, etc., down to parental, not being in synch. So much dissimilar information flowing through to young minds that do not have the maturity and guidance to discern which way to go. (Heck, even adults can have a problem with that). It has been established that young brains take a while to come to terms with actions having unforeseen consequences outside their comprehension which is where strong guidance, and trust in that guidance, is needed.

[babylene]

2 hours ago, zitsky said:

USA seems to care about individual liberty which is why we can't get 100% mask compliance.

We get that here too, but not as much.

I don't get it.

What does wearing a mask have to do with liberty?

What about seat belts?

 

What about drinking and driving?

What about uniforms?

 

Some people like to be contrarians. That's about it.  And they are selfish and don't care about others.

 

[TeeRick]

9 hours ago, babylene said:

We get that here too, but not as much.

I don't get it.

What does wearing a mask have to do with liberty?

What about seat belts?

 

What about drinking and driving?

What about uniforms?

 

Some people like to be contrarians. That's about it.  And they are selfish and don't care about others.

 

Dictionary definition of liberty.

1. the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.     2. the power or scope to act as one pleases.

 

Fourteenth Amendment of US Constitution:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

So what about wearing masks and social distancing?  IMO perhaps a matter of liberty to some and I understand that - but to me a matter of common sense and personal responsibility.  

[Wine-O]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

 

So what about wearing masks and social distancing?  IMO perhaps a matter of liberty to some and I understand that - but to me a matter of common sense and personal responsibility.  

 

I agree, common sense and personal responsibility.  I am anti-mask and pro-social distancing.  Wash your hands often and don't touch your face.  I know someone who caught a mild case of the virus.  He is a fingernail biter, and attributes it to touching some surfaces with the virus then putting his hands in his mouth.  🍷

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Dictionary definition of liberty.

1. the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.     2. the power or scope to act as one pleases.

 

Fourteenth Amendment of US Constitution:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

So what about wearing masks and social distancing?  IMO perhaps a matter of liberty to some and I understand that - but to me a matter of common sense and personal responsibility.  

Well, I guess that the natural extension would be for them to all walk around naked. If they shouldn't have to wear masks in their defence of "liberty", why should they have to wear anything at all? 🙄

[Wine-O]

Some people look good in a mask.  You knock it out of the ballpark.  🍷

[zitsky]

2 hours ago, Wine-O said:

 

I agree, common sense and personal responsibility.  I am anti-mask and pro-social distancing.  Wash your hands often and don't touch your face.  I know someone who caught a mild case of the virus.  He is a fingernail biter, and attributes it to touching some surfaces with the virus then putting his hands in his mouth.  🍷

 

I can just hear it now..... "Don't tell me to wash my hands!!!  I want my freedoms!!!"

[Miaminice]

15 hours ago, zitsky said:

USA seems to care about individual liberty which is why we can't get 100% mask compliance.

 

It´s the obligation of any nation and government to protect the liberty and dignity of every individual citizen.
By definition that includes health and safety. If protecting the "liberty" of many includes limiting the mere feeling of freedom of individuals there is no question what´s of higher value.

 

That´s the simple reason for the existence of laws limiting "individual liberties" harmful to others like smoking, speeding, racism, sexual obsessions, criminal activities, drugs... the list is endless.

The failure to act the same way in the current situation - mainly driven by the feeling of liberty and narcissism of one single person representing the nation and government - is a shame. A shame wasting and destroying countless lives... plus the reputation of a nation.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Miaminice

[Fouremco]

Anti-mask is the antithesis of common sense and personal responsibility.

[npcl]

20 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

It needs to be noted that I do think there is more to this situation, than just trying to get around our CDC.

 

As noted before, if the ships are outside of US water territory, then the intent is moot, is it not?

 

If, as you cite, the CDC indicated that there were 'active incidences' recently, they must be getting info from somewhere/someone, in order to make that statement.

 

Accurate or not.

 

In fact they may have #'s yet until X or any other cruise line makes it official, the detailed info is not citable, I would suggest.

 

bon voyage

The point is that Celebrity's plan was to offload in the Bahamas, then fly crew through the US, all to bypass the CDC restrictions on public flights in the US without the cruise line meeting there requirements.  You don't find that the least bit interesting? A bit of maybe finding a loophole in the rules preventing crew flying commercial out of the US.

 

The active incidents in the CDC document was from the ships remaining in US waters.  Though there was a reference to incidents where they offloaded in other countries that was reported in several places including releases from the health authorities in those countries.

 

Information reported to CDC is part of the public record in the US, even if the parent company down not release it.  That is why the report does include the number of cases on US ships.  I would propose that cruise lines really do not want numbers of positive cases reported in the news, even with just crew on board.

 

Note that the CDC report also stated that half of the ships in US waters have not tested their crew in any form.  The results of such tests would have to be reported.  If on the other hand if they think that there might be cases on board and they leave US waters (As CCL as done with their ships) and test results do not have to be reported.  In those situation the only way the public finds out about COVID still being present on ships (months after the crew as gotten off) is if they are offloading crew and the country requires testing and announces the results as St Vincent did last month.

 

My position is very simply the cruise lines have a track record of only following laws if they cannot find a way around them, sticking very closely to the letter, but not the intent.  That they hide information that should be public, to avoid PR issues.  I would change my mind if the cruise lines were to openly release health information that the public could use to make informed decisions, embrace testing and proper COVID practices for their crew and quite demonstrating how they are willing to do work around like routing their crew through the Bahamas to fly commercial through the US in spite of CDC laws (wonder if their doing that make have impacted the Bahamas decision to stop US flights since crew flying out probably means replacement crew flying in also through the US). But little chance for that.

Edited July 23, 2020 by npcl

[npcl]

15 hours ago, zitsky said:

USA seems to care about individual liberty which is why we can't get 100% mask compliance.

More like some people in the US do not like wearing masks and are grasping at any straw they can find to justify their objection.

 

Though people also feel that exceeding the speed limits, not wearing seat belts, driving while drunk, shooting guns into the air inside cities, and smoking in no smoking zones are also demonstration of their right to liberty, but fortunately the country has gotten beyond those.

Edited July 23, 2020 by npcl

[babylene]

4 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Dictionary definition of liberty.

1. the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.     2. the power or scope to act as one pleases.

 

Fourteenth Amendment of US Constitution:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

So what about wearing masks and social distancing?  IMO perhaps a matter of liberty to some and I understand that - but to me a matter of common sense and personal responsibility.  

According to your definition, it is no more a matter of liberty than being told to wear a seat belt  or a uniform.

 

Responsible people do what is necessary.

[Wine-O]

25 minutes ago, babylene said:

According to your definition, it is no more a matter of liberty than being told to wear a seat belt  or a uniform.

 

Responsible people do what is necessary.

Wearing a seat belt is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature and signed into law by a Governor.   What legislative body requires us to wear a face mask?  Seems to be it is an unlawful mandate.

 

Wearing a helmet driving a motorcycle is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature.  In Virginia, for example, it is a State Law, but in South Carolina, it is not, so you are free to wear one if you like, or not to wear one.   🍷

[babylene]

12 minutes ago, Wine-O said:

Wearing a seat belt is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature and signed into law by a Governor.   What legislative body requires us to wear a face mask?  Seems to be it is an unlawful mandate.

 

Wearing a helmet driving a motorcycle is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature.  In Virginia, for example, it is a State Law, but in South Carolina, it is not, so you are free to wear one if you like, or not to wear one.   🍷

I don't know much about state laws.

 

Where I live in Canada, wearing a mask in indoor public places is now a law.

[WrittenOnYourHeart]

33 minutes ago, Wine-O said:

Wearing a seat belt is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature and signed into law by a Governor.   What legislative body requires us to wear a face mask?  Seems to be it is an unlawful mandate.

 

Wearing a helmet driving a motorcycle is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature.  In Virginia, for example, it is a State Law, but in South Carolina, it is not, so you are free to wear one if you like, or not to wear one.   🍷

 

And there have been plenty of protests when each of those things became law. People seem to want to be stupid at the risk of everyone else (increased insurance rates and so forth due to injuries) in the name of "liberty".

[Fouremco]

 

27 minutes ago, Wine-O said:

Wearing a helmet driving a motorcycle is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature.  In Virginia, for example, it is a State Law, but in South Carolina, it is not, so you are free to wear one if you like, or not to wear one.   🍷

Good comparison. Not wearing a motorcycle helmet or a face mask simply because there is no law obliging you to do so is equally stupid. So much for common sense and personal responsibility. 

[babylene]

21 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

 

Good comparison. Not wearing a motorcycle helmet or a face mask simply because there is no law obliging you to do so is equally stupid. So much for common sense and personal responsibility. 

Thank you.

I got side-tracked with the US Constitution and the state laws!

[npcl]

1 hour ago, Wine-O said:

Wearing a seat belt is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature and signed into law by a Governor.   What legislative body requires us to wear a face mask?  Seems to be it is an unlawful mandate.

 

Wearing a helmet driving a motorcycle is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature.  In Virginia, for example, it is a State Law, but in South Carolina, it is not, so you are free to wear one if you like, or not to wear one.   🍷

The various  state laws that gives the Governors and other legally elected officials to put such requirements into place when a health emergency exists.  Each state has one.  Details vary by state, but it does not make the requirement any less legal.

 

Just as the state legislature passed the law that enables each the appropriate authorities to determine the what the specific  speed limit on each section of road.  There are numerous examples where laws are passed that give an organization authority to set the regulations and enforce them.  Zoning, speed limits, health enforcement, etc.

[hcat]

We are stuck in the mask rut  again.. Seems odd that some who vocally  insist on  masks and distancing, do not apply those rules to politcal protesters / rioters citing the  U,S Constitution.  Doubt the virus differentiates on who can help it spread! 

 

We mostly stay home,  use masks when we are out.,, but like many others find it hard to think or breathe ap with mask on, and our glasses fog..So we keep our outings  as short as possible.

 

But I thought this  thread was  about the Bahamas trvl ban on US and how crew mrmbers will be getting home?????

[DaveSJ711]

1 hour ago, Wine-O said:

Wearing a seat belt is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature and signed into law by a Governor.   What legislative body requires us to wear a face mask?  Seems to be it is an unlawful mandate.

 

Wearing a helmet driving a motorcycle is a State Law, voted in by a State Legislature.  In Virginia, for example, it is a State Law, but in South Carolina, it is not, so you are free to wear one if you like, or not to wear one.   🍷

 

A mask requirement is not an unlawful mandate.  State and local governments have broad authority to respond to a public health emergency such as a pandemic.  The key case in this area is Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905) which involved a vaccination mandate in the midst of a smallpox epidemic.  The U.S. Supreme Court upheld the mandate, stating:  "Upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members." 

[mom says]

26 minutes ago, hcat said:

but like many others find it hard to think or breathe ap with mask on, and our glasses fog..

Hard to think with a mask on? What twaddle. Do you think all those doctors and nurses wearing masks for hours at a time suddenly develop mental impairment when they put them on? Then heaven help us all.

 

Hard to breathe with a mask on? Sorry, but unless you have a respiratory impairment severe enough to require supplemental O2, then it's all in your head. I watched a news item last night where an Intensive Care doctor had his oxygen saturation levels monitored while wearing cotton, surgical, and N95 masks. None caused a drop in 02 levels compared to his baseline. When he wore all 3 types AT ONCE, his sats dropped from 100% to 99%. So that excuse doesn't wash. If you need supplemental 02 because of respiratory disease, then nasal prongs fit under any mask with no problem.

 

Glasses fog up? Get a mask with a wire or metal strip at the nose. Problem solved.

 

Are masks annoying or uncomfortable to wear? Yes, for some they are. Guess what? I find bras uncomfortable to wear; but I wear them out if courtesy to the people who have to be around me when I'm not at home. Lots of things can be uncomfortable, but grownups comply because it's the right thing to do.

[zitsky]

27 minutes ago, hcat said:

We are stuck in the mask rut  again.. Seems odd that some who vocally  insist on  masks and distancing, do not apply those rules to politcal protesters / rioters citing the  U,S Constitution.  Doubt the virus differentiates on who can help it spread! 

 

We mostly stay home,  use masks when we are out.,, but like many others find it hard to think or breathe ap with mask on, and our glasses fog..So we keep our outings  as short as possible.

 

But I thought this  thread was  about the Bahamas trvl ban on US and how crew mrmbers will be getting home?????

 

I also thought the topic was Bahama bans US residents?  Too bad.  I wouldn't mind seeing the place.  Sorry for going off topic.

Edited July 23, 2020 by zitsky

[gold1953]

42 minutes ago, hcat said:

We are stuck in the mask rut  again.. Seems odd that some who vocally  insist on  masks and distancing, do not apply those rules to politcal protesters / rioters citing the  U,S Constitution.  Doubt the virus differentiates on who can help it spread! 

 

We mostly stay home,  use masks when we are out.,, but like many others find it hard to think or breathe ap with mask on, and our glasses fog..So we keep our outings  as short as possible.

 

But I thought this  thread was  about the Bahamas trvl ban on US and how crew mrmbers will be getting home?????

With the right mask glasses will not fog. It requires the metal over the nose which you bend to shape each wear. I have made many like this and people love them and I get lovely thank you notes. Now I really do not enjoy making them but seem to have fallen into this.