CDC denies cruise sector's request to lift US sailing restrictions

[Oceangoer2]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

This is a very interesting point to make.  And I concur.  I have stated several times that there is no need to wear a mask on board a 100% vaccinated ship.  Others here are not convinced.  To me that is common sense knowing about vaccines.  I would definitely wear a mask traveling back and forth and anywhere off the ship.    If I choose to sail on a ship that has 100% of the passengers and crew vaccinated,  then I am in a vaccine protective environment with the guarantee that everybody else is vaccinated.  A much better guarantee than going to a grocery store or dining at a reduced capacity restaurant.   Even when I go to the clinic or doctor's office or dentist, I am not guaranteed that every health care worker I encounter is vaccinated.  That is more of a risk than sailing on a fully vaccinated ship.  

The thing I can see here going wrong on a 100% vaccinated ship, is that some will get off at ports and wouldn't know, in some cases, who they're coming into contact with who MAY pass the virus.  That is my concern....not the ship and their attempts at keeping covid off.

[D C]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

You are correct on the nature of the problem. Undoubtably the decision to allow sailing from the US is going to have to be based on data collected from land based studies.

 

I do wonder if serious studies could have been set up for the few cruises currently operating. I would have thought the cruise industry would have been willing to offer funding. Of course that runs counter to its general mindset to keep tight control on what finds its way into general media.

 

So, we know that there is no good data on the safety of cruising. This is why I posed the question. Claiming cruising is safe is a baseless claim. One may be of the opinion it is safe but we simply don't know that yet.

 

The results of vaccinations are very encouraging. I suspect it is only a matter of time before fully vaccinated sailings will be allowed. But at this time there really isn't any certainty. We simply have to be patient.

It is not a baseless claim in any sense.  Do tell where on earth would be safer than a contained population that is 100% vaccinated. The group is essentially impervious to becoming infected in the event that they somehow contact the virus.  The virus would need to defy all odds to locate the rare passenger who is susceptible despite being vaccinated.  The very premise of herd immunity is that the other 90=% of people are acting as a statistical barrier to them.  If odds are defied and someone actually contracts covid, it really doesn't matter since the odds would need to be defied again and again for each successive onboard transmission.  These are lottery ticket odds with what we know right now.

 

Where would you suppose is more safe?

 

 

 

[mnocket]

CDC Guidance......

If you’ve been fully vaccinated you can gather indoors with fully vaccinated people without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

 

CDC Guidance......

People who are fully vaccinated with an FDA-authorized vaccine can travel safely within the United States.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/travel-during-covid19.html

 

CDC Guidance.......

If you are fully vaccinated you need to pay close attention to the situation at your international destination before traveling outside the United States.

• You do NOT need to get tested before leaving the United States unless your destination requires it.
• You still need to show a negative test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 before boarding a flight to the United States.
• You should still get tested 3-5 days after international travel.
• You do NOT need to self-quarantine after arriving in the United States.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

 

It sure sounds to me like there's little justification for the CDC to continue to oppose cruise travel where passengers and crew are fully vaccinated.  Added bonus:  We shouldn't have to wear masks onboard.

 

 

[D C]

53 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

The thing I can see here going wrong on a 100% vaccinated ship, is that some will get off at ports and wouldn't know, in some cases, who they're coming into contact with who MAY pass the virus.  That is my concern....not the ship and their attempts at keeping covid off.

But even then, per my post above, the virus needs to find a susceptible vaccinated person.  

If 1/100 people are currently infected, and if 10% of vaccinated people are susceptible, the odds of those people finding each other purely by chance are 1 in 1000.    It takes a lot of close interactions to break those odds since people don't typically leave a ship and start interacting intimately with other people.  Plus, warm-weather cruise excursions tend to be outdoors where there are an extremely small number of identified transmissions.  You need to be really close to someone outside in order to contract covid. 

[TeeRick]

1 hour ago, Oceangoer2 said:

The thing I can see here going wrong on a 100% vaccinated ship, is that some will get off at ports and wouldn't know, in some cases, who they're coming into contact with who MAY pass the virus.  That is my concern....not the ship and their attempts at keeping covid off.

Even the CDC is saying today that if you are fully vaccinated you can travel without testing and quarantine.   You would be traveling in an environment where others in the immediate vicinity might not be vaccinated.  Maybe a high percentage.  As opposed to traveling on a 100% vaccinated ship?  I know where I would feel safer.

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, Oceangoer2 said:

The thing I can see here going wrong on a 100% vaccinated ship, is that some will get off at ports and wouldn't know, in some cases, who they're coming into contact with who MAY pass the virus.  That is my concern....not the ship and their attempts at keeping covid off.

 

Being fully vaccinated should protect you for the most part (you may get sick, you may need to be hospitalized, but you won't die), BUT it won't protect those you come in contact with who have not been vaccinated.  Fully vaccinated travelling with others who have been fully vaccinated?  99.99% chance of zero issues, IMO.

[TeeRick]

2 minutes ago, D C said:

But even then, per my post above, the virus needs to find a susceptible vaccinated person.  

If 1/100 people are currently infected, and if 10% of vaccinated people are susceptible, the odds of those people finding each other purely by chance are 1 in 1000.    It takes a lot of close interactions to break those odds since people don't typically leave a ship and start interacting intimately with other people.  Plus, warm-weather cruise excursions tend to be outdoors where there are an extremely small number of identified transmissions.  You need to be really close to someone outside in order to contract covid. 

Dave- people have been conditioned over a year to fear any virus exposure no matter how small the risk.  Cannot blame anybody for this.  And then the wishy washy early response of scientists about whether the virus could be passed to and from vaccinated people.  There was no data from clinical studies that had not been designed to answer this question.   But common sense and knowledge of vaccines would dictate otherwise.  And then real world post vaccination data.   The answer is increasingly no.  Or very tiny risk.   It will take a lot of new education to get everybody to understand risks in the new equation called fully vaccinated.  But that is the only way the pandemic ends and normalcy returns.

[Oceangoer2]

1 minute ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Being fully vaccinated should protect you for the most part (you may get sick, you may need to be hospitalized, but you won't die), BUT it won't protect those you come in contact with who have not been vaccinated.  Fully vaccinated travelling with others who have been fully vaccinated?  99.99% chance of zero issues, IMO.

I guess I should ask, if I take your opinion....."99.% chance of zero issues"?  Are you a medical doctor or in some way connected to the science of epidemiology?

 

 

[terrydtx]

New domestic and international travel conditions issued by the CDC this morning changes a lot for people who are fully vaccinated. Old restrictions still in force for the non vaccinated. Get stuck or stay stuck at home.

 

Fully vaccinated people may travel, CDC says (msn.com)

Edited April 2, 2021 by terrydtx

[K.T.B.]

15 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

I guess I should ask, if I take your opinion....."99.% chance of zero issues"?  Are you a medical doctor or in some way connected to the science of epidemiology?

 

 

 

I'm not a doctor nor in any connected to the science.  HOWEVER, I have 2 friends (husband & wife) who are and both traveled to Mainz, Germany a year ago to work.  A lot of what I know has come from them (albeit it wasn't a lot because of they were restricted in what they could say) and the the thread Ken started about vaccines being the light at the tunnel.  This is why I am so confident in the vaccines.

 

Now that they're home again, they returned home just before Christmas, I hope to see them again this summer. Once I'm fully vaccinated of course.    They still have family in the Chicago area and they have a few holidays to celebrate all at once.

[broberts]

1 hour ago, D C said:

It is not a baseless claim in any sense.  Do tell where on earth would be safer than a contained population that is 100% vaccinated. The group is essentially impervious to becoming infected in the event that they somehow contact the virus.  The virus would need to defy all odds to locate the rare passenger who is susceptible despite being vaccinated.  The very premise of herd immunity is that the other 90=% of people are acting as a statistical barrier to them.  If odds are defied and someone actually contracts covid, it really doesn't matter since the odds would need to be defied again and again for each successive onboard transmission.  These are lottery ticket odds with what we know right now.

 

Where would you suppose is more safe?

 

 

 

 

The claim had no basis in known fact. Data is emerging to suggest fully vacinated cruising is safe. When that happens you can boast about being prescient.

 

Now that the CDC has indicated it is safe for the vaccinated to travel it shouldn't be that long before it has sufficient data to decide that fully vaccinated cruising should be safe.

 

I tend to trust experts hired and legally bound over my naive opinion.

 

To answer the posed question, I would be and am much safer in my home.

[paulh84]

Maybe this will nudge the big 3 US cruise lines to finally address a blanket vaccination policy. 

 

So far all they've all said vaccines are great! They are the path forward! But we don't want to step on toes and require them. Carnival appears especially resistant. I get it. It's money, but at some point do you want to sail with a limited fleet and get some (vaccinated) people safely onboard, or do you keep all of your ships floating around until you get to a point you won't hurt the feelings of those who can't or won't get a vaccine.

 

Every poll or survey I have seen, although likely dominated by neurotic cruiseaholics, overwhelmingly wants a fully vaccinated crew and fully vaccinated passengers for now.

[broberts]

45 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

Maybe this will nudge the big 3 US cruise lines to finally address a blanket vaccination policy. 

 

So far all they've all said vaccines are great! They are the path forward! But we don't want to step on toes and require them. Carnival appears especially resistant. I get it. It's money, but at some point do you want to sail with a limited fleet and get some (vaccinated) people safely onboard, or do you keep all of your ships floating around until you get to a point you won't hurt the feelings of those who can't or won't get a vaccine.

 

Every poll or survey I have seen, although likely dominated by neurotic cruiseaholics, overwhelmingly wants a fully vaccinated crew and fully vaccinated passengers for now.

 

Some of the reluctance to act may be the questions of proving vaccination status and in the case of ship personnel do vaccines used have to have been approved by the FDA. 

[Oceangoer2]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

Some of the reluctance to act may be the questions of proving vaccination status and in the case of ship personnel do vaccines used have to have been approved by the FDA. 

That's an excellent question;  I think the FDA has world approved vaccines, however, perhaps not China and Russia?...and will  those sailing also be restricted to having had BOTH doses?

[broberts]

23 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

That's an excellent question;  I think the FDA has world approved vaccines, however, perhaps not China and Russia?...and will  those sailing also be restricted to having had BOTH doses?

 

According to the NY Times world wide there are 7 vaccines approved for full use, another 6 with limited approvals and 23 in clinical trials. 😯

 

I believe the FDA has only approved 3 at the moment.

 

[Spif Barwunkel]

A nice bit of news from the CDC for fully vaccinated US travelers. I've got to think cruisers from US ports are not far behind, although not before Oct/Nov 2021. 

 

So, from where shall we sail? All cruise ports are in the vicinity of densely populated areas with busy international airports. Still thinking safety, would it be best to ease the influx of cruisers to one particular location by spreading the wealth? If Cape Liberty NJ, Port Canaveral FL, Galveston TX and Los Angeles CA each take a ship we could be G O graphically covered while providing easier travel conditions for many people. The USA cruising population is covered from all sides but obviously you have a choice of where you would rather go. The destinations will be the typical locals, nothing exotic. But if you really want to get on the boat, perhaps you won't have to go too far to find your sea legs.

 

In the beginning, that sounds the most logical to me.  

[Ken the cruiser]

For those interested it appears the CDC has just posted their new Phase 2A Technical Instructions, dated April 2, 2021. At the top of the first document below reads the following:

 

CDC issued an Order that requires face masks to be worn by all travelers while on public transportation, including all passengers on board and all personnel operating maritime conveyances traveling into, within, or out of the United States. Masks are also required at all U.S. transportation hubs, including seaports and ferry terminals. For more information on this mask requirement, see the Frequently Asked Questions.

 

CDC COVID-19 Orders for Cruise Ships | Quarantine | CDC

 

Technical Instructions for a Cruise Ship Operator’s Agreement with Port and Local Health Authorities under CDC’s Framework for Conditional Sailing Order | Quarantine | CDC

[cangelmd]

34 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

For those interested it appears the CDC has just posted their new Phase 2A Technical Instructions, dated April 2, 2021. At the top of the first document below reads the following:

 

CDC issued an Order that requires face masks to be worn by all travelers while on public transportation, including all passengers on board and all personnel operating maritime conveyances traveling into, within, or out of the United States. Masks are also required at all U.S. transportation hubs, including seaports and ferry terminals. For more information on this mask requirement, see the Frequently Asked Questions.

 

CDC COVID-19 Orders for Cruise Ships | Quarantine | CDC

 

Technical Instructions for a Cruise Ship Operator’s Agreement with Port and Local Health Authorities under CDC’s Framework for Conditional Sailing Order | Quarantine | CDC

Another very important point in that document, Ken, is that CDC equates a cruise ship to a congregant living setting - so the masking and testing rules for nursing homes should apply - bit the guidance for travelers necessarily.

[K.T.B.]

This is a little easier to read: LINK

 

So vaccinations will be required. 

[nocl]

Does not look like a ships will be disembarking passengers and then embarking with new passengers the same day.  Hard to avoid using the same gangways in the same 12 hour period.

 

to ensure disembarking and embarking passengers do not occupy the same enclosed or semi-enclosed areas (e.g., gangways, terminal waiting spaces, check-in areas) within the same 12-hour period, and

[mnocket]

14 hours ago, nocl said:

Does not look like a ships will be disembarking passengers and then embarking with new passengers the same day.  Hard to avoid using the same gangways in the same 12 hour period.

 

to ensure disembarking and embarking passengers do not occupy the same enclosed or semi-enclosed areas (e.g., gangways, terminal waiting spaces, check-in areas) within the same 12-hour period, and

Hmmm   is this a "science based" requirement?  If so, what's the underlying science and why wouldn't it also apply to airport terminals?

[broberts]

53 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Hmmm   is this a "science based" requirement?  If so, what's the underlying science and why wouldn't it also apply to airport terminals?

 

Life isn't fair, get over it.

[mnocket]

1 minute ago, broberts said:

 

Life isn't fair, get over it.

Interesting answer..... not helpful, ignores the question, a bit hostile ("get over it"), but revealing nonetheless.

[broberts]

13 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Interesting answer..... not helpful, ignores the question, a bit hostile ("get over it"), but revealing nonetheless.

 

Well, since you didn't understand the science behind differences in air travel and cruise ship travel I'm not surprised you didnt understand my post. And the subtle bullying is not appreciated.

[mnocket]

15 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

Well, since you didn't understand the science behind differences in air travel and cruise ship travel I'm not surprised you didnt understand my post. And the subtle bullying is not appreciated.

Please explain the science behind the differences between a cruise terminal and an air terminal - since that's what we are talking about here, not "air travel and cruise ship travel" (as you claim I don't understand). 

 

That would surely be helpful as I truly don't understand your post and how "life isn't fair, get over it" pertains to the differences between cruise terminals and air terminals.

Edited April 3, 2021 by mnocket