NCL Counters CDC new phase with it's own plan. Really bold move.

[40yearcruiser]

Cudos to NCLH for taking the initiative to challenge the CDC's conditional sail order. The points they make are valid in relation to the lack of similar restrictions on other travel and entertainment venues. How can sitting shoulder to shoulder for hours on an airplane be less risky than being on a large ship where you can move around outside and it is very easy to social distance? Also, the cruise line's requirement for passengers to have the vaccine before sailing is not new. We are booked on an American Queen Steamship Company river cruise this summer and as of July 1 all passengers and crew (anyone who overnights on the boat) are required to provide proof of vaccination. If you decide not to receive the vaccine you are choosing to select a different kind of vacation. It's time for the CDC to listen to the measures the cruiselines are willing to implement and recind their punitive orders. 

[Suncoastsailors]

3 hours ago, lyst said:

 

How would she know she is allergic to a vaccine she has not be given?

[Jimbo]

18 minutes ago, Suncoastsailors said:

How would she know she is allergic to a vaccine she has not be given?

  my guess allergic to some of the ingredients.. 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Jimbo

[Trimone]

Looking at the people’s reactions on this forum, they want any excuse not to wear a 😷 mask, any government onlookers taking a view would be horrified.

[molly361]

6 hours ago, kdog3ss said:

Maybe a dumb question, but what's a test cruise?

The cruise lines are supposed to run test cruises with volunteers as passengers to test protocols and a lot of other things that are in the CDC CSO document and submit the results BEFORE getting permission to sail with paying passengers

[chengkp75]

17 hours ago, giustot said:

Even in the unlikely event the NCL request is approved, no one has yet mentioned that the Florida governor has signed an executive order prohibiting any businesses in Florida from requiring proof of vaccination. This idea of requiring vaccinations to cruise still has to play out. It's not as simple as, "a private business can do whatever it wants." Businesses have to obey the law.

 

Tom.

I would doubt that this would stand up in court.  Businesses have the right to restrict access, just as customers have the right not to comply and go elsewhere.

16 hours ago, mpk218 said:

Hahaha.. Unless you plan on swimming the 20 or so odd miles out to sea. That big ol pier they dock at is Miami proper  ; )

While the pier is in Miami, the water right at the dock is federal jurisdiction, since it is part of the "navigable waters" of the US.  Also, since the business involved is a foreign maritime business, the legality of any action falls under jurisdictional overlap between port state (US) and flag state, and would be decided in admiralty court, under maritime law.  And, historically, under admiralty law, any action taken by the vessel, under flag state law, that does not adversely affect the safety or well being of the port state, then flag state law will apply.

[chengkp75]

15 hours ago, giustot said:

I agree, and I’m not arguing that vaccinations shouldn’t be required. But is there currently  a federal law that allows cruise lines operating out of US ports to require vaccinations? I don’t think so. 
 

And if such a federal directive is issued, there is likely to be a legal challenge over discrimination. 

While there may not be and law or regulation requiring vaccination for boarding a cruise ship and leaving the US, the CDC has the jurisdiction to set any requirement it wants in order to grant "free pratique" or the clearance for a ship to enter US waters without having to quarantine onboard the ship.  So, you could get on the ship and sail away, but not be allowed to reenter the US.  Everyone confuses the CDC's requirements and CSO plan as being required to board the ship, when in fact they are the requirements to obtain "free pratique" to enter US waters again, as was clearly stated in the NSO and the CSO.

[Jobeth66]

15 hours ago, giustot said:

I agree, and I’m not arguing that vaccinations shouldn’t be required. But is there currently  a federal law that allows cruise lines operating out of US ports to require vaccinations? I don’t think so. 
 

And if such a federal directive is issued, there is likely to be a legal challenge over discrimination. 

 

You're approaching this backwards.  Is there a law that allows cruise lines to require vaccinations?  Who knows.

 

Is there a federal law that /prohibits/ cruise lines from requiring vaccinations?  Nope.  If there's no law prohibiting it, then it would be up to the discretion of the business.

[chengkp75]

12 hours ago, giustot said:

That doesn’t mean it’s legal just because a hospital wants it. Such a requirement would be subject to challenge in the courts. 

All businesses have the right to restrict access to their premises, for whatever reason, unless it violates one of the protected classes of people.  Restricting everyone (not based on race, creed, age, disability, etc (the protected classes)) based on need to show proof of vaccination is entirely legal.

[asctony]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

All businesses have the right to restrict access to their premises, for whatever reason, unless it violates one of the protected classes of people.  Restricting everyone (not based on race, creed, age, disability, etc (the protected classes)) based on need to show proof of vaccination is entirely legal.

Totally agree with you! You could not have said it better and clearer. 

There are rules for everything. Follow them or stay home. 

Happy cruising! Stay Safe! 

[GonzoWCS]

16 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

All businesses have the right to restrict access to their premises, for whatever reason, unless it violates one of the protected classes of people.  Restricting everyone (not based on race, creed, age, disability, etc (the protected classes)) based on need to show proof of vaccination is entirely legal.

This

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

disability

You're right, as usual, but I can easily see a prior medical issue being used as a form of disability (i.e. "I have a pre-existing medical condition that prevents me from getting a vaccine, and you can't use that against me."). - Not saying that'll work, but as sure as it's April 6, I know somebody will try it.

Also, much of what I've seen regarding best practices allows both the fully vaccinated and those who've recovered from Covid-19 without being vaccinated as being allowed to, among other things, board airplanes. I wonder if cruise lines will agree to that, but like everything else I say on Cruise Critic, it's not up to me and all is subject to change.

[kwturner23]

8 hours ago, Trimone said:

Looking at the people’s reactions on this forum, they want any excuse not to wear a 😷 mask, any government onlookers taking a view would be horrified.

Not looking for an excuse - just following CDC own guidelines for vaccinated people.  Also wondering how the CDC can issue these guidelines and then say it is not safe to cruise and keep a straight face.

What You Can Start to Do

If you’ve been fully vaccinated:

• You can gather indoors with fully vaccinated people without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart.
• You can gather indoors with unvaccinated people of any age from one other household (for example, visiting with relatives who all live together) without masks or staying 6 feet apart, unless any of those people or anyone they live with has an increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19.
• If you travel in the United States, you do not need to get tested before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel.
• You need to pay close attention to the situation at your international destination before traveling outside the United States.
  • You do NOT need to get tested before leaving the United States unless your destination requires it.
  • You still need to show a negative test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 before boarding a flight to the United States.
  • You should still get tested 3-5 days after international travel.
  • You do NOT need to self-quarantine after arriving in the United States.
• If you’ve been around someone who has COVID-19, you do not need to stay away from others or get tested unless you have symptoms.
  • However, if you live in a group setting (like a correctional or detention facility or group home) and are around someone who has COVID-19, you should still stay away from others for 14 days and get tested, even if you don’t have symptoms.

 

 

 

[giustot]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

All businesses have the right to restrict access to their premises, for whatever reason, unless it violates one of the protected classes of people.  Restricting everyone (not based on race, creed, age, disability, etc (the protected classes)) based on need to show proof of vaccination is entirely legal.

Good point. But there is a movement going on to make non-vaccinated people a protected class. We don’t yet know how this is going to play out. Is it possible the US Supreme Court could eventually rule that requiring proof of vaccination to work, shop, or travel is unconstitutional? We don’t yet know. 
 

And to those who keep insisting private businesses can do whatever they want, look at what happened to the bakery that didn’t want to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple. 

[ColeThornton]

9 minutes ago, giustot said:

But there is a movement going on to make non-vaccinated people a protected class.

 

Haven't heard anything about that.   Link please.   Thx.

[knitlady037]

12 hours ago, Suncoastsailors said:

How would she know she is allergic to a vaccine she has not be given?

She was given scratch tests with all 3 vaccine choices. 

[njhorseman]

36 minutes ago, giustot said:

 

And to those who keep insisting private businesses can do whatever they want, look at what happened to the bakery that didn’t want to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple. 

You're mistaken. The US Supreme Court ruled in favor of the baker. Admittedly the ruling was made on very narrow grounds, but nonetheless it was in favor of the the baker .

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/04/supreme-court-rules-against-gay-wedding-exemptions/1052989001/

"WASHINGTON – A divided Supreme Court on Monday absolved a Colorado baker of discrimination for refusing to create a custom wedding cake for a same-sex couple, ruling that the state exhibited "religious hostility" against him.

The 7-2 verdict criticized the state's treatment of Jack Phillips' religious objections to gay marriage in 2012, "

https://harvardcrcl.org/why-you-cant-sell-your-cake-and-control-it-too-distinguishing-use-from-design-in-masterpiece-cakeshop-v-colorado/

" In reviewing information about how the state of Colorado determined that the baker violated Colorado’s law, the Supreme Court concluded that Colorado had acted in a biased fashion against the baker and had failed to give the baker’s religious beliefs the kind of neutral treatment the Constitution required."

[Jobeth66]

1 hour ago, giustot said:

Good point. But there is a movement going on to make non-vaccinated people a protected class. We don’t yet know how this is going to play out. Is it possible the US Supreme Court could eventually rule that requiring proof of vaccination to work, shop, or travel is unconstitutional? We don’t yet know. 
 

And to those who keep insisting private businesses can do whatever they want, look at what happened to the bakery that didn’t want to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple. 

 That couple were members of a protected class.

[Jobeth66]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

You're right, as usual, but I can easily see a prior medical issue being used as a form of disability (i.e. "I have a pre-existing medical condition that prevents me from getting a vaccine, and you can't use that against me."). - Not saying that'll work, but as sure as it's April 6, I know somebody will try it.

Also, much of what I've seen regarding best practices allows both the fully vaccinated and those who've recovered from Covid-19 without being vaccinated as being allowed to, among other things, board airplanes. I wonder if cruise lines will agree to that, but like everything else I say on Cruise Critic, it's not up to me and all is subject to change.

Not being able to get a vaccine is not a disability.

[iamaqt2]

1 hour ago, knitlady037 said:

She was given scratch tests with all 3 vaccine choices. 

I find this statement to be highly unlikely.  Vaccination sites administering the vaccine have to report all doses used to the federal government including any doses lost to waste or error. It's very tightly regulated and is not being given out on a "test basis". Along with the fact that most vaccination sites usually only carry 1 brand of the vaccines, and sometimes two but I've yet to hear of any vaccination site carrying all 3.  This would also have to be done under the supervision of an allergist or physician, not a pharmacy or mass vaccination site and to my knowledge they would not have access to all 3.

[DCGuy64]

52 minutes ago, Jobeth66 said:

Not being able to get a vaccine is not a disability.

Yet. 😉

[HuliHuli]

21 hours ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

The federal government will not mandate the use of vaccine passports for travelers or businesses post-pandemic, President Biden's chief medical adviser, Dr. Anthony Fauci, told the Politico Dispatch podcast Monday.

 

Looks like cruise lines can make there own rules on vaccination requirements? If so, I bet the cruise lines drop it like its hot.

And of course, Dr. Fauchi has never flip-flopped on his pronouncements, right?

[HuliHuli]

What I also note on NCL's "Ready. Set. Break Free." page is they are pushing July cruises as follows"

• 7-Day Eastern Caribbean, Norwegian Gem
• 7-Day Greek Isles, Norwegian Jade (and other ships)
• 7-Day Western Caribbean, Norwegian Joy

All of which could easily be staged out of foreign ports if the CDC balks or opposes NCL's plans.  Indeed, Greece is on record publicly welcoming cruises this summer and NCL already has ports negotiated in the Mediterranean.  What's to stop NCL from working to secure fall-back ports in Bermuda, the Bahamas or Mexico (Joy or Gem) and thumb their nose at the CDC if they stonewall.  Thankfully, my next booked cruise is September in the Greek Isles.  I'm feeling pretty bold on that one now in the wake of FDR's letter.

 

Just noted NCL's update today on suspended sailings that "Norwegian Joy, Norwegian Jade and Norwegian Gem now boast new homeports in Greece and the Caribbean for three new and exciting itineraries sailing in July. Book them now!"  Awesome!

Edited April 6, 2021 by HuliHuli
Added Information

[giustot]

3 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

Haven't heard anything about that.   Link please.   Thx.

The state of Florida. The governor has signed an executive order forbidding the state from issuing vaccine passports and  prohibiting businesses from requiring proof of vaccinations. He says he doesn’t want to create a second class of citizens who are not vaccinated. 

[Navis]

Are you admitted to the bar of any State or Commonwealth? If not, you might want to leave the legal commentary to those of us that have taken and passed a Bar Exam and are admitted to practice in one or more state/commonwealth and/or Federal jurisdictions. This is quite off the mark and is likely to lead to a lot of unnecessary confusion.

 

 

16 minutes ago, giustot said:

The state of Florida. The governor has signed an executive order forbidding the state from issuing vaccine passports and  prohibiting businesses from requiring proof of vaccinations. He says he doesn’t want to create a second class of citizens who are not vaccinated.