Florida vs. CDC

[KennyFla]

6 minutes ago, WarfRatWA said:

No one is screaming doomsday....we just want our cruise ruined by selfish people.  Its not a difficult  concept to understand.

No. That is not what was said. 
 

And yes, mixed cruises have been sailing safely since last August. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by KennyFla

[WarfRatWA]

1 hour ago, KennyFla said:

No. That is not what was said. 
 

And yes, mixed cruises have been sailing safely since last August. 

Provide the evidence.

[Goldconnection]

3 hours ago, zerooveride said:

I am fully vaccinated and do not enjoy wearing a mask and I do not wear one when I don't have to.

 

But, if I walk into a business and they tell me they are uncomfortable, for whatever reason, and want me to wear a mask, I respect their decision and wear a mask. That is their right. They decide how they run their store and who they want to service. To tell them that they can't enforce what they feel safe with is a violation of their inherent rights. How is it any different than "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"? I don't see people complaining about that. We need to stop arguing about the stupid masks/vaccination requirements and respect what others, including businesses, feel comfortable with. 

 

If you don't want to get vaccinated, then it is on you if you do get sick. That again is your choice. I hope you do not but the decision is yours. 

 

If the cruise lines want to require 100% vaccinated, then that is their right. You have no right to carriage on their ships. Many cruise lines already deny people with and without reason; again because it is their right. No one has a right to go on a cruise and you can be denied with or without reason.

Well said. 

[Goldconnection]

My preference is to cruise on a ship where everyone is fully vaccinated. I have no problem with social distancing as much as possible (not taking a crowded elevator, taking the stairs, eating at a table for two, no sitting in the hot tube with other people…something I didn’t do pre-Covid, wearing a mask, etc. If asked I have no problem showing proof of vaccination.

 

Now let’s see who will be the first to try and argue with me about “MY” preference and what I don’t have a problem with to get back to cruising. News flash…Please don’t waste your time arguing opposite views as if what a total stranger, someone I care absolutely nothing about, someone whose opinion I care even less about can or will influence me to change my mind. You do you and I respect you for that. Happy cruising.

[DCGuy64]

4 hours ago, HuliHuli said:

 

In earlier CC debates on the merits and likely outcomes of this case, a majority of posters projected that Florida would fail in this case - I publicly disagreed based on prior case law and the plain reading of the law.  Now who's right?

And the “usual suspects” are doubling down by saying things like:

1. The CDC will appeal

2. The CDC will just issue tougher restrictions (like losing in court once wasn’t enough of an embarrassment)

3. It’s only a preliminary injunction 

The fact is that the CDC lost. And the court of public opinion clearly shows the CDC overstepped its authority. If the court had ruled against the state of Florida, even on a preliminary basis, you know those people would be gloating over it right now. If people want to nitpick over the details, they can, but what really matters is that in the eyes of the public, the CDC lost and the cruise industry won. Period. 

[sargemrs]

Just for clarification, from a great lover of cruises, NCL mostly, I need some information as far as is known.  We always cruise with a group.  Some are vaccinated, some would, some refuse as they have already had intense Covid and feel they're naturally immune!  No one mentions the anti-body tests.  For $25.00 you can get a finger ***** and a lab can tell if you have immunity.  Looks like that would be a cheaper and less invasive test and more accurate as to a say 10 day cruise or so. On another note;  Wondering what would happen now, that there are good meds to give if someone gets sick, it would be soon after they've gotten on board, couldn't the ship just quarantine them, and not the whole ship?  Food could be brought to the whole cabin and sad for them, but at least the whole ship isn't quarantined!  Would that work?  Also back to my suggestion of the anti-bodies test.  Would that work?

We have a 60th anniversary, family members have a 50th, and retirement celebrations and this is just awful.  At our age, in a year or two we may not have the good health we have now to enjoy a cruise.

BTW we ARE vaccinated and also tested before for anti-bodies, which we had even before the vaccinations.

[rabidstoat]

15 minutes ago, sargemrs said:

On another note;  Wondering what would happen now, that there are good meds to give if someone gets sick, it would be soon after they've gotten on board, couldn't the ship just quarantine them, and not the whole ship?  Food could be brought to the whole cabin and sad for them, but at least the whole ship isn't quarantined!  Would that work?

 

I don't think they're going to quarantine the whole ship unless a BUNCH of people test positive. The CDC's CSO had it at 1.5% of passengers, I think. So if you're on a reduced capacity cruise with 1000 people you're looking at 15 of them being sick, which seems like a lot, I haven't been hearing about ships in Europe with that many at once. I think they can be debarked at the next port to quarantine and then that should bring the number of sick down. I'd be really surprised if it happened, to be honest.

[sept10dsm]

1 hour ago, sargemrs said:

Just for clarification, from a great lover of cruises, NCL mostly, I need some information as far as is known.  We always cruise with a group.  Some are vaccinated, some would, some refuse as they have already had intense Covid and feel they're naturally immune!  No one mentions the anti-body tests.  For $25.00 you can get a finger ***** and a lab can tell if you have immunity.  Looks like that would be a cheaper and less invasive test and more accurate as to a say 10 day cruise or so. On another note;  Wondering what would happen now, that there are good meds to give if someone gets sick, it would be soon after they've gotten on board, couldn't the ship just quarantine them, and not the whole ship?  Food could be brought to the whole cabin and sad for them, but at least the whole ship isn't quarantined!  Would that work?  Also back to my suggestion of the anti-bodies test.  Would that work?

We have a 60th anniversary, family members have a 50th, and retirement celebrations and this is just awful.  At our age, in a year or two we may not have the good health we have now to enjoy a cruise.

BTW we ARE vaccinated and also tested before for anti-bodies, which we had even before the vaccinations.

Somehow antibodies don't seem to matter.  It should matter.  Recovered seem to only matter for blooddonations.  If a recovered person comes in contact with a positive person, no retest or quarantine so that's telling.  But Doesn't seem to matter 

[KennyFla]

9 hours ago, WarfRatWA said:

Provide the evidence.

I have. Over 400,000 people since August. Provide evidence it is not safe. 

[kilkoyne]

I would like to see Norwegian keep their 100% vaccinated cruises. With their cruises at 100% vaccination people have every option from 100% to non-vaxx cruises will be covered allowing people to choose a policy that best suits them. 

 

I'm vaccinated and would sail on any of the major cruise lines. I'm just happy to (hopefully) cruise in the near future. 😊

 

Norwegian 100% vaxx

RCCL mostly vaxx (due to testing and restrictive measures placed on non vaxx passegers)

CCL non-vaxx allowed

MSC non-vaxx allowed

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by kilkoyne

[WarfRatWA]

3 hours ago, KennyFla said:

I have. Over 400,000 people since August. Provide evidence it is not safe. 

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Christopher Hitchens

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, KennyFla said:

I have. Over 400,000 people since August. Provide evidence it is not safe. 

 

Correct. 

 

The # is actually much larger now and growing, but at the time of the Injunction filing the 400,000 is a commonly quoted statistic.  The documentation is referenced on page 120 of the the Florida Judge's ruling and the referenced exhibit was not challenged by the Defendants (CDC, etc.).

 

[Karaboudjan]

21 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Correct. 

 

The # is actually much larger now and growing, but at the time of the Injunction filing the 400,000 is a commonly quoted statistic.  The documentation is referenced on page 120 of the the Florida Judge's ruling and the referenced exhibit was not challenged by the Defendants (CDC, etc.).

 

Maybe commonly quoted but not, it would seem by the US mainstream media since it counters their 'sky is falling' narrative.

[RaftingJeremy]

23 hours ago, KennyFla said:

Choice. It is about choice. If you want to go on a vaccinated cruise, you will be able to. If you are not vaccinated and want to cruise you will be able to. If you want to stay home you will be able to. 
 

it is between you and the cruise lines. A govt bureaucracy should not decide who gets to cruise and who doesn’t. 
 

That is what this has always been about. 

No

[RaftingJeremy]

1 minute ago, Karaboudjan said:

Maybe commonly quoted but not, it would seem by the US mainstream media since it counters their 'sky is falling' narrative.

Ahh yes blame the media… excellent strategy

[RaftingJeremy]

10 hours ago, sargemrs said:

Just for clarification, from a great lover of cruises, NCL mostly, I need some information as far as is known.  We always cruise with a group.  Some are vaccinated, some would, some refuse as they have already had intense Covid and feel they're naturally immune!  No one mentions the anti-body tests.  For $25.00 you can get a finger ***** and a lab can tell if you have immunity.  Looks like that would be a cheaper and less invasive test and more accurate as to a say 10 day cruise or so. On another note;  Wondering what would happen now, that there are good meds to give if someone gets sick, it would be soon after they've gotten on board, couldn't the ship just quarantine them, and not the whole ship?  Food could be brought to the whole cabin and sad for them, but at least the whole ship isn't quarantined!  Would that work?  Also back to my suggestion of the anti-bodies test.  Would that work?

We have a 60th anniversary, family members have a 50th, and retirement celebrations and this is just awful.  At our age, in a year or two we may not have the good health we have now to enjoy a cruise.

BTW we ARE vaccinated and also tested before for anti-bodies, which we had even before the vaccinations.

🤦‍♂️

[WarfRatWA]

40 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Correct. 

 

The # is actually much larger now and growing, but at the time of the Injunction filing the 400,000 is a commonly quoted statistic.  The documentation is referenced on page 120 of the the Florida Judge's ruling and the referenced exhibit was not challenged by the Defendants (CDC, etc.).

 

The author of the study referenced is CLIA.  Their press release says the following:

 

"Nearly 400,000 passengers have already sailed from Europe and parts of Asia since last summer, following stringent, science-based protocols"

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2021/april/clia-issues-statement-reiterating-its-call-for-the-lifting-of-the-cdcs-conditional-sailing-order

 

What are the stringent science based protocol's that have led to this success?  Is mask wearing, social distancing, limiting services, reduced capacity, contact tracing, quarantining?  I honestly don't know and I cannot seem to find it online  Perhaps you could point me in that direction.

[JCDCA]

11 hours ago, sargemrs said:

Just for clarification, from a great lover of cruises, NCL mostly, I need some information as far as is known.  We always cruise with a group.  Some are vaccinated, some would, some refuse as they have already had intense Covid and feel they're naturally immune!  No one mentions the anti-body tests.  For $25.00 you can get a finger ***** and a lab can tell if you have immunity.  Looks like that would be a cheaper and less invasive test and more accurate as to a say 10 day cruise or so. On another note;  Wondering what would happen now, that there are good meds to give if someone gets sick, it would be soon after they've gotten on board, couldn't the ship just quarantine them, and not the whole ship?  Food could be brought to the whole cabin and sad for them, but at least the whole ship isn't quarantined!  Would that work?  Also back to my suggestion of the anti-bodies test.  Would that work?

We have a 60th anniversary, family members have a 50th, and retirement celebrations and this is just awful.  At our age, in a year or two we may not have the good health we have now to enjoy a cruise.

BTW we ARE vaccinated and also tested before for anti-bodies, which we had even before the vaccinations.

Or instead of this meandering post you could just tell your family to get vaccinated . 

[mmroadster]

It's sad to see so many people denying the effectiveness of vaccines, if you're vaccinated you're protected. With the CSO struck down there is no mask or social distancing requirements so cruise lines can finally get back to normal if they choose to.  It's very very sad to see so many people happily restricting others freedoms and demanding that medical information be shared, I wonder how many of these people would agree that passengers on a gay cruise must prove they are not HIV positive. I have to be honest that we have a 100% vaccinated cruise booked out of Athens and I'm selfishly very happy It's 100% vaccinated because all the hot tubs will be adults only. Do I think not allowing families to cruise is right? No but that won't keep me from taking advantage of the situation.  Will I cancel if they change and allow kids,  probably not as long as they don't make masks mandatory. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by mmroadster

[macandlucy]

1 hour ago, WarfRatWA said:

The author of the study referenced is CLIA.  Their press release says the following:

 

"Nearly 400,000 passengers have already sailed from Europe and parts of Asia since last summer, following stringent, science-based protocols"

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2021/april/clia-issues-statement-reiterating-its-call-for-the-lifting-of-the-cdcs-conditional-sailing-order

 

What are the stringent science based protocol's that have led to this success?  Is mask wearing, social distancing, limiting services, reduced capacity, contact tracing, quarantining?  I honestly don't know and I cannot seem to find it online  Perhaps you could point me in that direction.

I think that refers to the individual cruise lines that are currently sailing in Europe. Each line has their own set of guidelines. I am not sure but think (honestly don’t remember) that each line had to get approval from pertinent countries or the EU to get permission to sail.

[pmd98052]

4 hours ago, mmroadster said:

It's sad to see so many people denying the effectiveness of vaccines, if you're vaccinated you're protected. With the CSO struck down there is no mask or social distancing requirements so cruise lines can finally get back to normal if they choose to.  It's very very sad to see so many people happily restricting others freedoms and demanding that medical information be shared, I wonder how many of these people would agree that passengers on a gay cruise must prove they are not HIV positive. I have to be honest that we have a 100% vaccinated cruise booked out of Athens and I'm selfishly very happy It's 100% vaccinated because all the hot tubs will be adults only. Do I think not allowing families to cruise is right? No but that won't keep me from taking advantage of the situation.  Will I cancel if they change and allow kids,  probably not as long as they don't make masks mandatory. 

Kids have to be vaccinated to go to schools. It’s hardly outrageous that to go into a high risk indoor environment during a pandemic that vaccinations are key. 
 

It’s funny to see folks say “but in Europe these cruises have been unvaccinated”…. I was on a MSC Cruise out of Southampton and they require masks everywhere something all the anti vax folks also say is a restriction of “freedom”. Sad to see health is now political.

[coffeebean]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:52 AM, SpainAlien said:

Would you agree that the UK have very high vaccination numbers?  The infection rate of the Delta variant is running wild over there despite the high number of people who are vaccinated or have immunity following a previous infection.  This is far from a "virtual mathematical impossibility."

mRNA vaccines are protective against the variants, including the Delta variant. I believe the AZ vaccine is the predominant vaccine used in the UK. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that. I do not know how effective the AZ vaccine is in protection against the Delta variant. Anyone have any data about that?

[coffeebean]

On 6/19/2021 at 12:22 PM, WarfRatWA said:

 

........Your picture not give the whole story and as a result it misinforms. 

That graphic is so incorrect, it is scary to think people would believe it. VERY scary.

 

The graphic does not demonstrate that tiny, ity bitty, teensy weensy virus molecule is encompassed in a droplet or an aerosol which is MUCH MUCH MUCH larger than the actual virus. THOUSANDS of virus particles are contained in droplets and aerosols which are spewed into the air by an infected person.

 

That graphic is wrong on every level.

[aftforsure]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:45 AM, macandlucy said:

Many of the assumptions about potential dangers of cruising are based on the situation in March 2020, where almost the whole population was vulnerable to Covid. That is no longer the case because there's so much immunity in the population now. 

 

Why do even the most restrictive states allow full opening now? Because they know that there is enough immunity in the population to make exponential spread a virtual mathematical impossibility.  This is the same situation on land or on a ship. People's respiratory systems and immune responses do not magically change once they embark a ship.

 

If you are fully vaccinated, the likelihood of you getting sick from covid is very low. If you do get sick (again, unlikely), you will likely experience very mild symptoms. Is this risk really so serious that cruising should be prohibited? As a vaccinated person, do you need to know your fellow cruisers measles vax stats, flu, hepatitis? Not really because YOU are vaccinated. You have protection from these bugs, so you don't need to worry, that's the bottom line and why we do vaccinations. (The public health component includes things like not overwhelming health care systems and creating herd immunity for the people who are unable to take the vaccine.)

 

None of this makes any sense to me -- there were people in March 2020 who were unafraid to go on a cruise and there are people in June 2021, who are fully vaccinated against covid, who are too afraid. 

 

 

 

I don't believe that vaccinated cruisers are afraid of Covid. They are afraid of an outbreak which would cause quarantine and similar situations to what happened to cruise ships a year ago if there are unvaccinated passengers or crew.

[coffeebean]

On 6/19/2021 at 12:39 PM, WarfRatWA said:

Case in point...The Celebrity Millennium is great example of how a 100% vaccinated cruise mitigates.

A vlogger was on board and was traced to the Covid positive couple as she was on the same shore excursion as them. She had to quarantine until her Covid test came back negative. I think she was in quarantine at least over night. So, it can happen. She was released from quarantine when her test came back negative. Evidently, she did not have symptoms but still had to quarantine. So, that is what the protocol was on the Celebrity Millie.