The Real Scoop on Dressing Down

[Pushpit]

2 hours ago, exlondoner said:

So what do you call a shirt you wear with a Dinner Jacket? That’s what I think of when I hear the term.

Dinner Jack Shirt? Actually it's all context driven. If we were talking about dinner jackets (which for Smart Attire is out of scope) then yes a dress shirt goes with the dinner jacket. If we are discussing smart attire and want to distinguish between other shirts such as polo shirts and football shirts then dress shirts would make it clear I think.

 

What is interesting from the photo above, though, is that someone who prefers to acquire a casual wardrobe could still have one of the shirts shown - it works both with shorts and trousers, doesn't need to be a boring colour, can have a zany pattern, and yet with trousers it still ticks the box for Smart Attire.

[bitob]

I think this entire discussion proves my point

It really is not clear.

Even dress shirt can be open to interpretation - eg.  picture a smartly dressed guy in black dress pants, black blazer and black silk tee.  He is smartly dressed -- looks better than some guy in a plaid collared shirt and chinos for sure (who might look like a farmer LOL).   Some men (not my husband) wear collarless dress shirts (admit they are not truly in vogue now) that are considered dress shirts.  My husband owns cashmere silk blend open collar long sleeve ribbed shirts ((no cuffs) that he wears under jacket or alone.  It's  dress shirt -- not a polo.

 

I am not surprised that compliance is a problem on board.

[NE John]

And then we get into area of the tucked/untucked look for dress shirts. I doubt Cunard will tell a gentleman to tuck in his shirt!

I wouldn’t place an untucked dress shirt under the Smart Attire code. 

[Windsurfboy]

Things are only as complicated as you make them.

 

I know my wife wouldn't let me wear an untucked shirt at night. Something to be worn with shorts in the day.

 

Untucked shirts even with long trousers are a fashion statement by the young and slim and can look very elegant. 

 

Or unfortunately an admission that it won't fit, which is something that definitely should be hidden under a jacket.

[bitob]

33 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

Things are only as complicated as you make them.

 

I know my wife wouldn't let me wear an untucked shirt at night. Something to be worn with shorts in the day.

 

Untucked shirts even with long trousers are a fashion statement by the young and slim and can look very elegant. 

 

Or unfortunately an admission that it won't fit, which is something that definitely should be hidden under a jacket.

interpretation -- again -- a well dressed guy with an untucked shirt may look more smartly dressed than the farmer I referred to.  I think an untucked Tommy Bahama long sleeve gauze shirt (which is a dress shirt) is designed not to be tucked in and looks "smart."

 

I think this discussion is hilarious.  A lot of it has to do with fashion sense.

 

We are on the Sept 11 b2b on the QM2 -- our second Cunard experience.  I feel confident we will look great!

[naturelovergirl]

We love to dress up for the evenings- so we have zero problem with smart attire or the gala/formal nights.

We love Cunard for the chance to experience traditional cruising as I always dreamed about my whole life.

 

Where Cunard has a branding problem is that they want to attract new passengers- but many of those new passengers do not know the brand or the traditions. 

All you have to do is go on any social media platform discussing the Alaska cruises this year.

There are many people who have never had the joy of sailing Cunard before. Many.

They found an excellent Alaska itinerary on Cunard and booked.

Many of them have sailed other lines before- and many of them have sailed to Alaska before on those lines.

Other lines do have more ambiguous dress codes- almost like they are just mere suggestions. (And you see that wide variety of dress in the evenings, for certain)

And specifically for Alaska, you read all of the time on travel articles and travel blogs that Alaska cruises are more “casual”.

 

I have read so many people who booked Cunard (for Alaska specifically) and are surprised that the dress code is what it is.

(I even read a comment one day where a person was saying that their travel agent told them that they had to dress nicely for only a couple of nights- and they were so surprised that there was a dress code all nights)

And yes- I’ve also read many people say online that their polo shirt has a collar.

 

So here (on social media discussions) we have a new crop of Cunard passengers who just booked a vacation with a fantastic set of ports and days- and they are trying to figure out that bare minimum they have to do to adhere to the dress code- and all of the Cunarders are like, didn’t you research? 
But regardless.

These new passengers did not know that their cruise was going to be more traditional.

 

Our hope is that they try Cunard and LOVE it as so many of us do!

We want new passengers to love Cunard- but we also don’t want Cunard to lose the things that differentiate Cunard from other lines.

 

Somewhere the communication has broken down between the Cunard marketing to new passengers who are not familiar with the brand or its history and the loyal passengers who know tradition of the line.

Whether that is Cunard, or travel agents, or just the person planning not reading between the lines on the website- it really comes down to communicating what Cunard is.

 

[Host Hattie]

Very true @naturelovergirl, I really struggle with the thought that polo shirts are smart attire. I'm a steelworker, they're work wear for us !

[bluemarble]

I'm with you too, @naturelovergirl. There is one poster on other social media who insists "Gala Evening" only refers to the balls in the Queens Room and thus the Gala Evening dress code only applies to the Queens Room. Other posters offer insights along the lines of "It's your holiday, dress as you like." It is quite eye-opening to see discussions about the Cunard dress code elsewhere.

 

[Aquadesiac]

I agree that Formal is very easy for gentlemen to attain--Tux, Dinner Jacket, Dark Suit. It's the Smart Attire that has us all shaking our heads. I wonder if the American idea of Business Casual is more what Cunard had in mind for non-formal evenings. Something like:

 

A navy Jacket sans tie, long sleeved shirt with a collar, and chinos 

or...

A camel Jacket, silk long sleeved mock turtleneck sweater, and chinos (My DH looks smashing in this!) 

 

I guess I'm assuming since "chinos" refers only to the more casual fabric, and since they have hidden stitches and are more tailored than any other style of "less-than-suit" pants, they are considered "trousers" for the purpose of Smart Attire evenings, though not for Formal nights. 

 

Am I mistaken?  

 

We're booked on Queen Anne's 2025 Maiden WC and don't want to run afoul of fashion expectations.

 

[D&N]

All the M&S shirts that are intended to be worn with dinner suits are described as: "Dinner Shirt".

The Jaeger shirts they sell of that type are described as: "Bib Front Dress Shirt".

I don't think anything shown in the dress shirt section has a breast pocket, even the much more casual looking linen offerings.

 

Personally I split long sleeved shirts into dress and business. Business shirts have a pocket that can be used to hold a pen or while travelling for passport and boarding card. Dress shirts I would wear for going out to dinner or social occasions when I wouldn't expect to need such things.

[D&N]

1 hour ago, Aquadesiac said:

I guess I'm assuming since "chinos" refers only to the more casual fabric, and since they have hidden stitches and are more tailored than any other style of "less-than-suit" pants, they are considered "trousers" for the purpose of Smart Attire evenings, though not for Formal nights. 

 

Am I mistaken?

No you're not mistaken.

 

Obviously I wouldn't wear a pair of old chinos that I'd used for a week decorating a room, but if I had a new pair of black chinos freshly pressed and some accident became of an only available pair of dinner trousers, I would wear them with a tux and I doubt anyone would notice.

 

That won't happen though because I don't intend to take any chinos next time we're on QM2.

 

[foodsvcmgr]

For the last 10 or 12 years before my recent retirement as a F&B executive at a major hotel casino we had all pretty much forsaken ties other than for major events.

Typically we wore a suit or blazer with dark slacks and a button down shirt.

When wearing a tie I use a shirt with a standard collar.

A dress shirt without a pocket below the level of a tux shirt is difficult to find.

So to a degree it boils down to what clothing one is used to wearing or may own already.

[Aquadesiac]

1 hour ago, D&N said:

No you're not mistaken.

 

Obviously I wouldn't wear a pair of old chinos that I'd used for a week decorating a room, but if I had a new pair of black chinos freshly pressed and some accident became of an only available pair of dinner trousers, I would wear them with a tux and I doubt anyone would notice.

 

That won't happen though because I don't intend to take any chinos next time we're on QM2.

 

Not even for smart attire nights? We're going to be on Queen Anne for 98 nights. I don't think Cunard offers true dry cleaning any more and chinos can be washed. 

[TouchstoneFeste]

8 hours ago, exlondoner said:

So what do you call a shirt you wear with a Dinner Jacket? That’s what I think of when I hear the term.

In the US I think it would be referred to as a "formal shirt" - that is, to be worn with formalwear - or a "tuxedo shirt". Even those definitions can get muddy, however:

https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/tuxedo-black-tie-guide/classic/tuxedo-shirts/

[Windsurfboy]

I think the Saga description of exactly the same code is unambiguous, by explicitly saying no polo shirts

 

"A shirt with a collar (not a polo shirt) and trousers."

 

Yes it does allow chinos, but so does Cunard, Chinos can be smart. 

 

Although it would allow for a short sleeved shirt, but aircon would deter that. Anyone brave enough to freeze to make a statement isn't to be messed with.

 

[D&N]

Just now, Aquadesiac said:

Not even for smart attire nights? We're going to be on Queen Anne for 98 nights. I don't think Cunard offers true dry cleaning any more and chinos can be washed. 

While I'm sure it's nice for many folk, I couldn't do 98 nights. I found myself homesick for where we have chosen to live after about 12 nights on a B2B crossing. I never experienced that feeling when we lived in Scotland where I was born, raised and spent nearly the first 60 years of my life in. Plus I wouldn't consider leaving whatever cats we had at the time for that length of time.

 

We'll do another 14/15 day B2B crossing on QM2 in 2025, and by that time I think I can possibly convince myself to make it an annual affair. last time I took some more casual day clothes and in many of the lunchtime photos we took of ourselves as a couple I feel that I looked really scruffy in comparison to my wife, therefore next time and on subsequent trips I intend to correct that. On smart attire nights I wore a suit with tie last time and we added an extra formal night each week because at time of original booking there were 3 per week and that was reduced to 2 by time of travel.

Next time to rationalise clothing a bit I'll wear tux every night (cream for a few of them) and a dark suit or a blazer and trousers with tie for lunch.

 

We have a problem choosing what to leave behind from my wife's wardrobe so we view the whole thing as an opportunity to dress up.

 

That's our choice. Nothing to do with dress codes or what anyone else wants to do.

[Aquadesiac]

Sounds like you've discovered the right sort of cruising for you, D & N. I have to confess, we didn't jump right into extended voyages. We did 7 nights for years, then 12, then 14, finally a 30 night and we still weren't eager to get off the ship. Please don't misunderstand. We love our land life too. But I have a touch of wanderlust I've never been able to contain.

 

I'm not comfortable flying internationally, so the places we want to see can only be reached by ship. Someday, we'll stay home and reminisce about our adventurous "go-go" years, but for now, we hope to make as many memories as we can.

 

And while we're on Cunard, we hope to be appropriately dressed while we make them! 

[rtdiva]

As an American who has sailed Cunard’s World Cruise, Alaska ( yes, dress is more casual) and East bound, dress attire can be easily misunderstood via customs & language. Living in a small river community between Napa and the San Francisco Bay Area, dressing up for a nice restaurant, the theater, funerals, some weddings almost always means in today’s lifestyle jeans for men of all ages up until age 70.

Language and clothing continue to evolve. 

 I was particularly puzzled by the use of the word “gown”for evening dress for women suggested a few years ago by Cunard. “ Does that mean Cinderella” I thought?  No, it means an evening dress of any length.  My experience along with others to lessen packing is to bring a little black outfit and a white outfit to wear with a “kimono” type wrap, shawl or jacket (keeps out the chill), adding appropriate color to the themed look. A set of long pearls, with a feather on a headband in your hair works fine for Roaring Twenties. White night, will require white. Tops that shed are not a good choice. A good quality fabric is what makes any outfit comfortable and attractive. Black shoes of any type works. No, not plastic flip flops. Cunard is above all transportation from one place to the next. Characters and a character can be found everywhere. Kindness counts.

Edited June 4, 2023 by rtdiva

[Lakesregion]

Go away for aweek and this thread is still pulling them in. Reminds one of an old Jane Fonda Movie.

 

One yearns for the good old days of ship travel where there was no need to question a code as those that sailed in the first class cabins "knew" what was required of them before ever booking becasue they wore similar clothing both during the day and during their evenings both out and at home. and those traveling below the salt still wore their sunday best.

[exlondoner]

4 hours ago, Lakesregion said:

Go away for aweek and this thread is still pulling them in. Reminds one of an old Jane Fonda Movie.

 

One yearns for the good old days of ship travel where there was no need to question a code as those that sailed in the first class cabins "knew" what was required of them before ever booking becasue they wore similar clothing both during the day and during their evenings both out and at home. and those traveling below the salt still wore their sunday best.

And knew their place. Possibly not in a lifeboat.

[Victoria2]

5 hours ago, Lakesregion said:

Go away for aweek and this thread is still pulling them in. Reminds one of an old Jane Fonda Movie.

 

One yearns for the good old days of ship travel where there was no need to question a code as those that sailed in the first class cabins "knew" what was required of them before ever booking becasue they wore similar clothing both during the day and during their evenings both out and at home. and those traveling below the salt still wore their sunday best.

Surely wearing similar clothes both during day and evening is precisely what you argue against? My clothes, when on holiday, are most definitely different between day and evening! Same goes for when we go out of an evening. Clothes are different to day, not similar.

 

Sadly, economics has meant the demise of most live in staff and as preparing spag bol in in any kind of evening dress is SO cumbersome, I’m afraid changing for dinner at home is not on my menu as said spag bol would get cold whilst doing so.

 

Oh the problems we have to put up with in the twenty first century!  ☹️

 

 

[Windsurfboy]

Oops , Valet on holiday , having to press my own clothes ready to pack in a few days.

[PORT ROYAL]

20 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

Oops , Valet on holiday , having to press my own clothes ready to pack in a few days.

No need to do one’s own pressing, as a good Dry Cleaners could collect clean/press and return.  
Same onboard, when unpacking just pay people to press Tux, Suits, Jackets and Trousers etc prior to wearing.

Edited June 4, 2023 by PORT ROYAL
Specific garments

[D&N]

4 hours ago, Victoria2 said:

and as preparing spag bol in in any kind of evening dress is SO cumbersome, I’m afraid changing for dinner at home is not on my menu as said spag bol would get cold whilst doing so.

Wouldn't having something like this in the kitchen solve that problem? We have one on hand all the time. They don't have cakes on them though.

[foodsvcmgr]

It appears everyone is making similar points leading to a similar conclusion that the confusion emanates from many prospective passengers not familiar with dressing anymore in the manner stipulated.

As I stated, being a F&B Director I still wore suits, albeit with no tie.

A tech Director though might only wear jeans to work despite his rank and salary.

Cunard and travel agents need to do better explaining the dress code up front so that new passengers can decide if they wish to buy the clothes required or would be more comfortable elsewhere.

What I have difficulty understanding is why anyone looking for a casual evening experience would select Cunard?