Holland America fleet now fully shore electricity capable!

[Alphen]

With Volendam as las ship to be finished, the whole fleet of DAM ships are now capable to receive shore side delivered electricity, if available.

[Toofarfromthesea]

Is sourcing electricity from coal burning shore power plants, as will often be the case, really better for the environment than sourcing it from relatively clean modern ships?  Or is this just a feel good kind of thing?

[Heidi13]

14 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Is sourcing electricity from coal burning shore power plants, as will often be the case, really better for the environment than sourcing it from relatively clean modern ships?  Or is this just a feel good kind of thing?

 

Affirmative, as similar to electric cars, in some/many cases it just shifts the problem to the generating station. The other consideration is that very few of the World's port have the supply available for a cruise ship.

 

At least in Vancouver and Victoria it does make a difference, as overall our Provincial power is 98% renewable and is 100% on many days.

[leerathje]

In British Columbia, the majority of our electricity is hydroelectric.  All BC ports (Vancouver, Victoria and Prince Rupert BC ports) have hydroelectric ship to shore power.

 

L.

 

[CruiserBruce]

35 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Is sourcing electricity from coal burning shore power plants, as will often be the case, really better for the environment than sourcing it from relatively clean modern ships?  Or is this just a feel good kind of thing?

The amount of coal burning in the US is decreasing. Significantly. 

[Mosaic]

Did electric cars really need to be mentioned here? I love my economical, environmentally friendlier car.

[Torquer]

After 3 HAL cruises in the last 14 months including 40 days, we have seen a HAL ship hook up to shore power in exactly 1 port.  Since I am an electrical engineer by training, I always look for this when we are docked in a port.  So although this might be a nice idea, it has yet to really be common at most ports world-wide.

[Blackduck59]

3 hours ago, leerathje said:

In British Columbia, the majority of our electricity is hydroelectric.  All BC ports (Vancouver, Victoria and Prince Rupert BC ports) have hydroelectric ship to shore power.

 

L.

 

While the funding has been announced for shore power here in Victoria BC, I don't know if the infrastructure has actually been installed. I'm sure it will be a welcome addition to the port. As I understand it 2 of the 3 births here will have shore power available. As others have mentioned most electricity in BC is generated by hydroelectric power plants.

[kochleffel]

4 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

The amount of coal burning in the US is decreasing

 

In New York, except possibly during emergencies, none of the default electric supply is from coal. It's about 25% hydro and 24% nuclear, with the largest single source pof the rest being natural gas, and smaller amounts from wind and solar.

 

[Bxc53]

Seattle has had the shoreside power for at least a couple years. It seems to work well, especially as the docks are right downtown, making the aux power engine exhaust quite noticeable at times.  

A good friend was a power dispatcher for Seattle City Light and would often  set up the grid for the cruise ships. He mentioned that they, especially the larger classes , would draw a LOT of power, to the point they had to up the output at the dam(s). All hydro out here.  Powered by Rain we like to say …

[Alphen]

13 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Is sourcing electricity from coal burning shore power plants, as will often be the case, really better for the environment than sourcing it from relatively clean modern ships?  Or is this just a feel good kind of thing?

Not wanting to get a discussion about green, greener, greenest, but I think it is more about not having the local exhaust fumes in port where the ship is docked, sometimes in populated areas, if shore side power is used.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Alphen

[chengkp75]

12 hours ago, Bxc53 said:

It seems to work well, especially as the docks are right downtown, making the aux power engine exhaust quite noticeable at times.  

I have to chuckle when articles like this mention "aux power engines", when the same engines that power the propulsion also power the hotel load in port.  They are all the same.

[cbr663]

21 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Is sourcing electricity from coal burning shore power plants, as will often be the case, really better for the environment than sourcing it from relatively clean modern ships?  Or is this just a feel good kind of thing?

 

It's a feel good kind of thing.  Makes it look like the cruise lines are caring about the environment.  

[VMax1700]

For the past 2 days Rotterdam has been hooked up to shore power in Stockholm, Sweden.  Most of Sweden's power comes from hydroelectric and nuclear.  So no oil, no fumes from the ship, but how clean and green is nuclear (waste)?

[VMax1700]

21 hours ago, Mosaic said:

Did electric cars really need to be mentioned here? I love my economical, environmentally friendlier car.

 

Me too!  and with our solar panels I calculate that my driving this summer cost me nothing!

But when the solar panels have reached the end of their life, what waste is produced?  However, I will take the feelgood factor now.

[chengkp75]

26 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

 

It's a feel good kind of thing.  Makes it look like the cruise lines are caring about the environment.  

I think it is more that the cruise lines are seeing the regulatory landscape change to require shore power in more ports, so they are reacting to meet this.  As for the ports, in many cases, it is a matter of kicking the can to another jurisdiction, as there are questions in some places as to whether the electrical infrastructure can handle another 8-30Mw of power (1 to 3 cruise ships)(about 400-600 homes per ship), and what to do with the excess generation capacity when the ships are not in port.

 

Heck, there are problems with integrating community solar projects into the grid due to aging and limited infrastructure, for example, Vermont has placed a moratorium on new solar projects due to infrastructure limitations.

[Bxc53]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

I have to chuckle when articles like this mention "aux power engines", when the same engines that power the propulsion also power the hotel load in port.  They are all the same.

Fair point. My aviation background snuck that one in. Your profile certainly backs your statement  .

 

A question, if I may ?   Our last cruise was on the RCL Quantum. Being a curious type, I researched their engines.    6 total, with 2 ea. Wartsila 19,200 KW , 2 Ea. Wartsila 14,400 KW and 2 Cat  2500KW.  
 

When would the smaller Cat engines be used?
 

 

 

[Heidi13]

25 minutes ago, Bxc53 said:

Fair point. My aviation background snuck that one in. Your profile certainly backs your statement  .

 

A question, if I may ?   Our last cruise was on the RCL Quantum. Being a curious type, I researched their engines.    6 total, with 2 ea. Wartsila 19,200 KW , 2 Ea. Wartsila 14,400 KW and 2 Cat  2500KW.  
 

When would the smaller Cat engines be used?

 

 

Without knowing the ship, best guess is the Wartsilas are the prime movers and the 2 Cat 3500 series are emergency generators.

 

This is similar to my last command that had 4 MAN as prime movers and a Cat 3608 as emergency genny.

[TheEmerson]

One of the positives on a financial point of view is the cost savings over time by using shore power.   Longer you run the house load on shore power less hours you are putting on each of the PMs.  Say 8 hours on a turnaround day in the Alaska over one season would be roughly 7 days not running the engines.  Slightly over four years that will be one month of engine wear gone, one month of fuel costs gone, longer span between rebuilds.    Then there is the ability to negotiate on the open market futures on per kW generation.  Lock in a price per kW that is favorable then use that for the shore power needs while saving the available fuel on contract term on when you need to move the ship.  

Edited October 3, 2023 by TheEmerson
typo

[Blackduck59]

1 hour ago, TheEmerson said:

One of the positives on a financial point of view is the cost savings over time by using shore power.   Longer you run the house load on shore power less hours you are putting on each of the PMs.  Say 8 hours on a turnaround day in the Alaska over one season would be roughly 7 days not running the engines.  Slightly over four years that will be one month of engine wear gone, one month of fuel costs gone, longer span between rebuilds.    Then there is the ability to negotiate on the open market futures on per kW generation.  Lock in a price per kW that is favorable then use that for the shore power needs while saving the available fuel on contract term on when you need to move the ship.  

The company will pay what the shore power suppliers charge there will be no locking in a price on some imaginary open market. That's like suggesting you can lock in a low price at the gas pump for your car. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Blackduck59

[TheEmerson]

11 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

The company will pay what the shore power suppliers charge there will be no locking in a price on some imaginary open market. That's like suggesting you can lock in a low price at the gas pump for your car. 

Large consumers of petroleum products and electricity can and do buy futures contracts to lock in stable prices.   The market exists and when you have to buy at that volume there are options to create stability in your costs.    In fuel market large consumers like airlines and cruise lines do book futures contracts that lasts for months at a time.  

[Blackduck59]

27 minutes ago, TheEmerson said:

Large consumers of petroleum products and electricity can and do buy futures contracts to lock in stable prices.   The market exists and when you have to buy at that volume there are options to create stability in your costs.    In fuel market large consumers like airlines and cruise lines do book futures contracts that lasts for months at a time.  

Except in the case of ports, the service is delivered through port infrastructure, they will set the price. 

[TheEmerson]

22 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

Except in the case of ports, the service is delivered through port infrastructure, they will set the price. 

The Port can offer a price for the Power Factor, Infrastructure Recovery Costs, etc.   And HAL like any other Cruise line will negotiate with the Port Authority for the best results for each.   HAL can offer what is covered in the futures contracts to offset/supplement or cover what the PF in the kVA used to the Port as part of the converstaion.  We will never be in the room during the negotiations to know what the final outcome will be other than the SEC Filings shows us.  Both sides want to use the shore power facilities but only when it makes sense to do so.   HAL in this case does not have to buy the service if it is not regulated into doing so.

[asebastian]

2 hours ago, Blackduck59 said:

That's like suggesting you can lock in a low price at the gas pump for your car. 

Actually we can do that here in Australia via an app...price is locked for 14 days. But now both cars at home are EV so we don't use it any more...

 

Airlines do it all the time, future prices locked in months ahead, in some instances pre-paid as well. Very few airlines pay the "price of the day" as they don't spot buy, it's all contracted budgeted price and spread out the expenditure. No reason why cruise ships can't do the same.

Edited October 3, 2023 by asebastian
Added more info

[chengkp75]

An electricity consumer can buy power on the open market for a given metered account .  That would be the port authority, not the individual cruise line customers. HAL could try to negotiate a different rate than other consumers,  but I doubt the port authorities would do this, any more than they would negotiate different dockage rates for each line.

 

Given that the engines are overhauled every 14,000 hours,  that 7 days a year savings is not that significant as far as wear and overhaul are concerned.